do we really have free will?

[DannyC]

Free will is a hard one. Logically
It cannot exist. Let's look at all sides...

You can have free will because God allows it.

That doesn't Sound like free will to me. That means we only have free will because he said so, that's not really free will.

From a non religious aspect I could say to you "hey go on, do something now, anything, use your free will!". Say then you decide to jump around and sing. That's not a free will choice. If I didn't propose you do something in the first place then you wouldn't have done what you just did.

There is no such thing as free will, only a limited set of choices laid out to you by someone or something that creates the situation.

I don't see your points linking, If a God which created the world which is described as all powerful gives you free will, or lets say a soul which has free will how can you say it's not free will because God gave it? That logically does not follow, no where have I found any definition whether it be secular or theistic that demands the absense of God in order for free will to be valid. I'm an atheist and I don't even think your points make any sense.

And again I think your examples show a sort of undefined grey area free will which is impartial to many who have not tried to form an exact definition of free will. So your undefined grey area free will will never meet your requirements because you base all your examples on this false premise i.e This undefined free will idea.

I have looked at alot of argument and the conclusion I've reached is free will exists and is compatible with determinism.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I don't see your points linking, If a God which created the world which is described as all powerful gives you free will, or lets say a soul which has free will how can you say it's not free will because God gave it? That logically does not follow, no where have I found any definition whether it be secular or theistic that demands the absense of God in order for free will to be valid. I'm an atheist and I don't even think your points make any sense.

And again I think your examples show a sort of undefined grey area free will which is impartial to many who have not tried to form an exact definition of free will. So your undefined grey area free will will never meet your requirements because you base all your examples on this false premise i.e This undefined free will idea.

I have looked at alot of argument and the conclusion I've reached is free will exists and is compatible with determinism.

Do you give your children freedom to do as they wish or do you love them and set guidelines for them for their own benefit?

What you give your child is permission (a form of relative freedom) to do this or that within your guidelines.

Do you expect God to be any less a loving Father to his children?

Say you tell them it is OK to go to the corner store. When your children go beyond that, did their permission to do so come from you if they did not ask to do so?

 

[kardiaoangelous]

We have great room within God's boundaries of love for self- expression which because it is done in the image of God's ways of righteousness harms not ourselves nor anyone else.

It is an illusion that says we need freedom from God's will and for God to grant us such would not be the act of a loving Father.

 

[DannyC]

Do you give your children freedom to do as they wish or do you love them and set guidelines for them for their own benefit?

What you give your child is permission (a form of relative freedom) to do this or that within your guidelines.

Do you expect God to be any less a loving Father to his children?

When your children go beyond that, did their permission to do so come from you if they did not ask to do so?

Well like I said I'm an atheist so God has no say in my views. Setting guidelines for someone to follow, is giving them an option to make a decision on which you deem 'good' or 'bad', they still must make a decision in the end. I can't literally remove their ability to make choices, I can however physically stop them making a choice but that doesn't object to free will existing. If they go against choices they still make a choice to oppose it.

This is all about choices, and how we make a choice. Free will is a concept which is thrown around with no actual structure, many philosophers give detailed structures and arguments to support the concept of free will, none argue the version of free will I hear thrown about constantly. This idea of a kind of immaterial substance which makes decisions and is in essence 'us'. Even when this idea is rejected we still hear people propose the claim we can't have free will because we are just material beings. That I don't think is true or even holds weight in an argument. We still make a decision, we are the material which we deem seperate from our faculties, we are in fact ourselves making set decisions. Yes they exist in a deterministic viewpoint. But they are not objections of each other, they comply with each other.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Well like I said I'm an atheist so God has no say in my views. Setting guidelines for someone to follow, is giving them an option to make a decision on which you deem 'good' or 'bad', they still must make a decision in the end. I can't literally remove their ability to make choices, I can however physically stop them making a choice but that doesn't object to free will existing. If they go against choices they still make a choice to oppose it.

This is all about choices, and how we make a choice. Free will is a concept which is thrown around with no actual structure, many philosophers give detailed structures and arguments to support the concept of free will, none argue the version of free will I hear thrown about constantly. This idea of a kind of immaterial substance which makes decisions and is in essence 'us'. Even when this idea is rejected we still hear people propose the claim we can't have free will because we are just material beings. That I don't think is true or even holds weight in an argument. We still make a decision, we are the material which we deem seperate from our faculties, we are in fact ourselves making set decisions. Yes they exist in a deterministic viewpoint. But they are not objections of each other, they comply with each other.

You reason falsely. You describe a freedom that is not freedom because it is stopped and yet continue to call it freedom. The ultimate stop will be death. Where is that freedom you claim is possible after that? From dust thou art and to dust thou shalt return.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

You do have plenty of freedom given to do God's will so that you can be truly free as God is free, especially from the corruption and death due to sin which right now is the price one is made pay for a freedom that has a price and therefore is not free at all.

 

[Snakecharmer]

I don't see your points linking, If a God which created the world which is described as all powerful gives you free will, or lets say a soul which has free will how can you say it's not free will because God gave it? That logically does not follow, no where have I found any definition whether it be secular or theistic that demands the absense of God in order for free will to be valid. I'm an atheist and I don't even think your points make any sense.

And again I think your examples show a sort of undefined grey area free will which is impartial to many who have not tried to form an exact definition of free will. So your undefined grey area free will will never meet your requirements because you base all your examples on this false premise i.e This undefined free will idea.

I have looked at alot of argument and the conclusion I've reached is free will exists and is compatible with determinism.

I'll grant you it was a poor post. I was just trying to say that free will has boundaries. There was no attempt link anything, Just a scatter shot approach.

I'll sum it up this way... I could exercise my free will and on a whim choose to watch The Shawshank Redemption tonight.

But if Frank Darabont never made that film, I wouldn't be able to exercise free will to watch it.

So yeah we can choose what we want to do, but it always seems to be within boundaries set by someone or something else.

 

[DannyC]

I'll grant you it was a poor post. I was just trying to say that free will has boundaries. There was no attempt link anything, Just a scatter shot approach.

I'll sum it up this way... I could exercise my free will and on a whim choose to watch The Shawshank Redemption tonight.

But if Frank Darabont never made that film, I wouldn't be able to exercise free will to watch it.

So yeah we can choose what we want to do, but it always seems to be within boundaries set by someone or something else.

No worries I was just seeking clarification, but your example about The Shawshank Redemption, is that really an objection to our free will? Of course I can't choose to fly, but that's not because I don't have Free will, it's because I don't have wings. Like your example, you couldn't hypothetically watch the film not because you didn't have Free will, but because there is no film to watch. I think there is a difference between literal physical limits which we encounter and our ability to make choices.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

No worries I was just seeking clarification, but your example about The Shawshank Redemption, is that really an objection to our free will? Of course I can't choose to fly, but that's not because I don't have Free will, it's because I don't have wings. Like your example, you couldn't hypothetically watch the film not because you didn't have Free will, but because there is no film to watch. I think there is a difference between literal physical limits which we encounter and our ability to make choices.

We do have the capability of usurping the extra freedom to sin away from that which God permits us.

So if you mean do we have that capability that is one thing.

If you mean God gives us that ability to make choices contrary to his will if we so desire to do so, that is quite another thing.

That is like after you extended a measure of freedom to your child and they abused it to do other things without your permission, your child then saying to you, "But you should not have trusted me Dad so what I did is your fault."

God loves us and part of love is trusting until there is solid reason to do otherwise.

But now we are caught up in a rebellion by usurpation of freedom to be used against God's will and he lets it continue only so that he can salvage seed from among men who learn their err and repent it.

We however see many cases in the scriptures where when he told a specific individual what to do and they did not do it they paid with their life. That in itself is proof God has not authorized our freedom of will to be used against his will.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

In other words, it is not true that God gives a choice to sin. He gives us a choice to stop sinning and that only.

When we sin we are said to be free from God but servants to sin. When stop sinning, only then can we become servants of God and escape death.

 

[DannyC]

We do have the capability of usurping the extra freedom to sin away from that which God permits us.

So if you mean do we have that capability that is one thing.

If you mean God gives us that ability to make choices contrary to his will if we so desire to do so, that is quite another thing.

That is like after you extended a measure of freedom to your child and they abused it to do other things without your permission, your child then saying to you, "But you should not have trusted me Dad so what I did is your fault."

God loves us and part of love is trusting until there is solid reason to do otherwise.

But now we are caught up in a rebellion by usurpation of freedom to be used against God's will and he lets it continue only so that he can salvage seed from among men who learn their err and repent it.

We however see many cases in the scriptures where when he told a specific individual what to do and they did not do it they paid with their life. That in itself is proof God has not authorized our freedom of will to be used against his will.

All your points which you have made are theological attempts to convey Christian themes, 'sin', 'God' and 'rebellion' are meaningless to me. I'm an atheist, none of these are in anyway conflicting my points, because I don't found any of my views on the belief in God.

 

[Snakecharmer]

Your right about the flying Danny. We can't do it because we don't have wings. The parameters set by either god or evolution has denied us the choice to do that.

We can make any choices we want and do whatever we want as long as they are within the pre defined parameters which we have no say in.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

If you say so.

But you do know that if you choose to murder you are treated as a murderer.

If you steal you are treated as a thief.

And so on and so forth. But as an atheist you no doubt claim these things are innate in a man's nature to know as in survival of the fittest.

That is a great rule to live by if one is satisfied to be able to bend and twist principles as it suites them.

If that is what makes you happy then who am I to tell you that you cannot.

 

[Snakecharmer]

I define morals as how you behave when no one else is looking.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I define morals as how you behave when no one else is looking.

That is well and good if one does not tend to compromise them when it seems more convenient to do so.

Many people in this world (even many who call themselves Christian) tend to rationalize their morals away when it seems right to them to do so.

 

[JCluvsme]

We have a free will yes, before Adam and eve sinned against the rule, God gave command not to eat the forbidden tree in the garden there's such rule to be followed if there is no rule obvious no violation, even angels have free will, God has FOREKNOWLEDGE, He know already that man sinned, He know Lucifer and angels will rebelled against Him,and He know who will be with HIM eternally, WE don't KNOW how powerful HE is, but we know HE is powerful no one could measure,,so let just keep our FAITH and use our free will wisely ,walk in the path of righteousness to follow the will of the LORD..


^_____^

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Proverbs 16:25 "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

Jeremiah 10:23-24 "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing."

 

[Abiding]

I was listening to a Doctor of religion speak on this last night. He seemed to not understand that the expression "before the foundation of the world" means before Adam and Eve bore their first child which began the foundation of the world. And the expression "from the foundation of the world" means from that first child born to Adam and Eve, onward.

The Lamb is said to be slain "from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The Lamb was slain when righteous Abel was born and he offered a sacrifice to typify it. The first expression of faith.

The church, 1 Peter 1:20 "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" was immediately upon Adam's sinning as Genesis 3:15 points to, Genesis 3:15 "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

1 Peter says "foreordained before the foundation of the world"
You said no opinions. Who says Abel was the start of the world and that the typology didnt start with coats of skins?
The revelation text is a bad translation and doest make sense, better translation:
Rev 13:8 The beast was worshiped by everyone whose name wasn't written before the time of creation in the book of the Lamb who was killed.

If you dont remember my question was a response to what i thought you were
saying and that was that God doesnt know the future. So even if your position
is that the foundation of the world started with Abel, it doesnt explain the names
written in the book before Abel.

 

[zone]

Re: do we really have free will?

free to do what?
avoid the grave?
stop the coming wrath of God on unrighteousness?
cuz that's all that matters.

oh...that and if you prefer lemon yellow cushion covers.

like......come on!

free what? free as in we're goin' to Shambala?
free to stay awake for 3 days?
free to will our lungs to draw breath?
free to choose Paris over Dogpatch?

SO WHAT?

free to do what?

ya we have free will.

before Grace came we willed virtually nothing but evil, freely.

His will be done. thankfully not ours.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Sometimes watching freewillies defend their self autonomy, and how "great" it is can be humorous, other times scary.