Do We Sleep?

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Apr 15, 2017
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#41
So when it is said that when we die, we sleep, what does that mean? I look at sleeping as not really being aware. But those under the altar in Revelation cry out to God, how long Lord? So...what exactly DOES the word sleep mean in the verses?

Also, when it says, and they saw many of their dead walking around, does this have any relevance to my questions?

I want to hear everyone's thoughts on this. :)
We do sleep for we need sleep to charge us back up and give us energy to keep going on with our day to day functions,lol.

When people die physically nobody truly dies, for all people will live on forever whether with God or not, so they sleep.

Everybody will be resurrected whether with God or not.

The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, for a saint has no need to sleep for their sins are forgiven, and by the Spirit the kingdom of God is within them, so they are right with God spiritually, and when they die can go directly to Jesus in a glorified body, the visible image of God, the only way the saints can see God.

That is why there is souls under the altar because when they died they went to be with the Lord, and they are waiting for all the saints to be with them, and then Jesus and the saints will come back in a glorified body, and Jesus will defeat the world, and save Israel, and Jesus and the saints will rule over the people that God spared that fought against Israel for 1000 years.

The people that rejected the truth, and did not hear the truth, or not sufficiently, will sleep until the 1000 years period, and then they will resurrect and be judged.

All people slept in the Old Testament whether a saint or not, and when Jesus gave salvation then all Old Testament saints and New resurrected to heaven, because their sins were completely washed away, and they could go to be with Jesus.

It is called sleep because nobody truly dies, but all will be resurrected whether with God or not.
 
Feb 28, 2016
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#42
Yes, of course we all 'sleep' so that we may rise from the dead...
but,
remember satan's 'first lie' recorded', "you shall surely not die", but,
God says, 'If you eat of the fruit thereof, you shall surely 'die'...
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#44
So when it is said that when we die, we sleep, what does that mean? I look at sleeping as not really being aware. But those under the altar in Revelation cry out to God, how long Lord? So...what exactly DOES the word sleep mean in the verses?

Also, when it says, and they saw many of their dead walking around, does this have any relevance to my questions?

I want to hear everyone's thoughts on this. :)
Hello Stunnedbygrace,

That is a good point that you bring up and is one that I use often, among others, to demonstrate that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body. As you said, we have the souls under the alter who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of God's wrath.

We have Moses and Elijah appearing with Christ and speaking with Him about His departure.

And one of the best examples is the event of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31, which states that these two men died and were buried, yet their spirits were conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades. Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were in that area across from where the rich man was in torment in flame, the two places separated by a great chasm.

We also have Jesus telling the man next Him that "today you will be with me in paradise." The fact that both Jesus and this man died hours prior to sunset, demonstrates that when their bodies died, their spirits departed and went somewhere else.

Whenever we see the reference to sleep, it is referring to the death of the body and not the spirit. For taking into consideration the above examples above showing the spirit conscious and aware, then sleep in this context must refer only to the body. Another example would be of Jairus daughter:

"But Jesus took her by the hand and called out, “Child, get up!” Her spirit returned, and at once she got up.

Other scriptures tell us that to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord - 2 Cor.2:5-6.

Paul was torn between remaining in the body or departing to be with the Lord - Philippians 1:22-24
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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#45
Yes, of course we all 'sleep' so that we may rise from the dead...
but,
remember satan's 'first lie' recorded', "you shall surely not die", but,
God says, 'If you eat of the fruit thereof, you shall surely 'die'...
Hello oldethennew,

Every person who has died in a reconciled state to God, their spirits are now in His presence, conscious and aware and are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies from there. While those of us who will be alive at the time of the resurrection will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them.

remember satan's 'first lie' recorded', "you shall surely not die",
Taking all scriptures regarding death into consideration, life and death are both states of eternal, conscious existence. It is ones status with God which will determine where that eternal existence will be spent. For those in Christ they are promised life, which is eternal, conscious existence in the kingdom of God. For those who die in their sins, they will also exist forever conscious and aware, albeit in a resurrected body in separation from God in the lake of fire.

Death is not defined as annihilation or non existence, but complete loss of well being, ruination.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#46
We do sleep for we need sleep to charge us back up and give us energy to keep going on with our day to day functions,lol.

When people die physically nobody truly dies, for all people will live on forever whether with God or not, so they sleep.

Everybody will be resurrected whether with God or not.

The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, for a saint has no need to sleep for their sins are forgiven, and by the Spirit the kingdom of God is within them, so they are right with God spiritually, and when they die can go directly to Jesus in a glorified body, the visible image of God, the only way the saints can see God.

That is why there is souls under the altar because when they died they went to be with the Lord, and they are waiting for all the saints to be with them, and then Jesus and the saints will come back in a glorified body, and Jesus will defeat the world, and save Israel, and Jesus and the saints will rule over the people that God spared that fought against Israel for 1000 years.

The people that rejected the truth, and did not hear the truth, or not sufficiently, will sleep until the 1000 years period, and then they will resurrect and be judged.

All people slept in the Old Testament whether a saint or not, and when Jesus gave salvation then all Old Testament saints and New resurrected to heaven, because their sins were completely washed away, and they could go to be with Jesus.

It is called sleep because nobody truly dies, but all will be resurrected whether with God or not.

I've struggled some with this. I am fairly firm-ish in what I think about it now but it did take some struggle and working through. I think there IS no eternal life for humans (but not sure I think this about satan) apart from Gods' Spirit in them. Eternal life is in the Son, not in the human. So while I think all will be resurrected again for the judgement, I do not think those not recorded in the book of life will have eternity, because they wont have the Son and He IS eternal life. God prevented A & E from eating the fruit from the tree of life BECAUSE if they did they would live forever in their fallen state. He would not permit them to have eternal life in that state.

Satan seems to be another matter and it's curious. He appears to have eternal life apart from God, which is chilling to me, because he DOES appear to maybe live forever in torment...
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
1,449
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#47
So when it is said that when we die, we sleep, what does that mean? I look at sleeping as not really being aware. But those under the altar in Revelation cry out to God, how long Lord? So...what exactly DOES the word sleep mean in the verses?

Also, when it says, and they saw many of their dead walking around, does this have any relevance to my questions?

I want to hear everyone's thoughts on this. :)

I love this post but probably because I question the same thing. There is that one Scripture that says to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, that messes my "opinion", "thought process , "understanding" up.

What has me stumped is the understand of when the great white throne judgement is. If G-d has it fro each person as they die, opens the Books of Life, then yes we are either in heaven or hell at that moment; yet, our physical bodies could still be asleep on Earth until the Return of Messiah.

Then, we could just be asleep and the Great White Throne Judgement is held off until Messiah returns and the rapture and He judges all mankind at one time. But that calls for some kind of "purgatory" (for lack of a better word). Like the story about Lazarus. NOT THE PURGATORY WHERE YOU CAN PRAY OR PAY FOR PEOPLE TO GET OUT OF, LIKE CATHOLICISM TEACHES THAT IS NOT BIBLICAL.

I honestly do not know this answer!

When my sisters' son moved home at age 8 she was believing G-d will resurrect him, like now before the return of Messiah. I told Miriam, Thomas is asleep, and rather it is now or when Messiah returns that he resurrected either way it will be like a twinkling of an eye to Thomas. I don't know if she found comfort or not, she's a strand duck anyway since we were children!!!! I man really kid is dead and buried and still wanted a resurrection..... But I tell you this that woman has greater faith than I EVER WILL HAVE!!!!

To really be honest I don't care too much, no not al all (fun subject though) either way I'm saved and taking as many people as I can with me, so asleep or wide awake in hean IT'S ALL GOOD TO ME!!!!
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#48
I've struggled some with this. I am fairly firm-ish in what I think about it now but it did take some struggle and working through. I think there IS no eternal life for humans (but not sure I think this about satan) apart from Gods' Spirit in them. Eternal life is in the Son, not in the human. So while I think all will be resurrected again for the judgement, I do not think those not recorded in the book of life will have eternity, because they wont have the Son and He IS eternal life. God prevented A & E from eating the fruit from the tree of life BECAUSE if they did they would live forever in their fallen state. He would not permit them to have eternal life in that state.

Satan seems to be another matter and it's curious. He appears to have eternal life apart from God, which is chilling to me, because he DOES appear to maybe live forever in torment...
Hello stunnedbygrace,

So while I think all will be resurrected again for the judgement, I do not think those not recorded in the book of life will have eternity, because they wont have the Son and He IS eternal life.
Those who are resurrected will indeed stand at the bema seat of Christ to be judged, but not for sin. Believers will receive either rewards or loss of rewards for works done in the body. The is not a judgment for sin, because Christ was already judged for our sins.

I do not think those not recorded in the book of life will have eternity, because they wont have the Son and He IS eternal life.
You are not understanding the definition of life and death. You are confusing eternal existence in separation from God as being life, which it is not. Those who names are not found written in the book of life will exist forever in separation from God, which is the state of death. Death does not mean non-existence or annihilation, but relates to the individuals state of being with God after the death of the body. Both life and death are states of conscious existence.

I think there IS no eternal life for humans (but not sure I think this about satan) apart from Gods' Spirit in them.
Regarding the above, how would you explain unbelievers who continue to live on the earth who do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, or those in Hades who are in torment in flame? Separation from God and His glory is what death is. But it is not defined as eternal life, but eternal death. Too many people associate death with non-existence, which is just not true.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#49
Hello stunnedbygrace,



Those who are resurrected will indeed stand at the bema seat of Christ to be judged, but not for sin. Believers will receive either rewards or loss of rewards for works done in the body. The is not a judgment for sin, because Christ was already judged for our sins.



You are not understanding the definition of life and death. You are confusing eternal existence in separation from God as being life, which it is not. Those who names are not found written in the book of life will exist forever in separation from God, which is the state of death. Death does not mean non-existence or annihilation, but relates to the individuals state of being with God after the death of the body. Both life and death are states of conscious existence.



Regarding the above, how would you explain unbelievers who continue to live on the earth who do not have the Spirit of God dwelling in them, or those in Hades who are in torment in flame? Separation from God and His glory is what death is. But it is not defined as eternal life, but eternal death. Too many people associate death with non-existence, which is just not true.

Well...yeah, I do think there is a second death. I'm just not 100% positive that second death isn't a loss of eternal life (of ANY sort). If you live separated from God on earth and then die the first death, I think to die the second death may be to not live AT ALL. Otherwise, the second death would not be a second death. It would be a miserable eternal existence. And that isn't what scripture seems to say to me.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#50
Satan seems to be another matter and it's curious. He appears to have eternal life apart from God, which is chilling to me, because he DOES appear to maybe live forever in torment...
Since you refer to Satan, and Satan is a spirit being, it should be clear from this that spirits and souls are IMPERISHABLE. That is a separate thing from having eternal life, which is life with, and in, God and Christ. Satan will remain very much alive in the Lake of Fire and suffer the torments of Hell. But that is NOT eternal life!

When people die they DO NOT sleep. "Sleep" is only a metaphor for the appearance of the body in the grave. Those who have been redeemed are very much alive and rejoicing in Heaven, whereas those who are unsaved are very much alive and suffering in Hades.

Soul Sleep is a false doctrine based upon an incomplete and incorrect understanding of Sheol/Hades in the Old Testament, where the word "grave" was applied to Sheol even though it should not have been applied. Sheol/Hades was the abode of the souls and spirits of all who died before the resurrection of Christ. However the righteous dead were separated from the unrighteous by a wide impassable gulf or chasm.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#51
Since you refer to Satan, and Satan is a spirit being, it should be clear from this that spirits and souls are IMPERISHABLE. That is a separate thing from having eternal life, which is life with, and in, God and Christ. Satan will remain very much alive in the Lake of Fire and suffer the torments of Hell. But that is NOT eternal life!

When people die they DO NOT sleep. "Sleep" is only a metaphor for the appearance of the body in the grave. Those who have been redeemed are very much alive and rejoicing in Heaven, whereas those who are unsaved are very much alive and suffering in Hades.

Soul Sleep is a false doctrine based upon an incomplete and incorrect understanding of Sheol/Hades in the Old Testament, where the word "grave" was applied to Sheol even though it should not have been applied. Sheol/Hades was the abode of the souls and spirits of all who died before the resurrection of Christ. However the righteous dead were separated from the unrighteous by a wide impassable gulf or chasm.
I'm not certain we can compare satan being a spirit being to humans. Just because satan (a spirit being) appears to have eternal life/be imperishable somehow even apart from God, it does not follow (in my opinion) that souls/humans have this imperishableness within themselves apart from God. The garden and the events that transpired there seem to show that God insured that we could not have the seeming imperishableness of satan after our fall as he seems to have after his fall. It's probably too deep of a subject for me. In fact, I'm pretty sure it is. But I don't think we can view aspects of satan and then conclude we have all of those same aspects.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#52
it does not follow (in my opinion) that souls/humans have this imperishableness within themselves apart from God
All souls -- saved or unsaved -- are imperishable. Please read and study Luke 16:19-31. Also study Sheol throughout the OT.

The rich man was very much alive in Hades. That was in fact his soul and spirit. Lazarus too was very much alive in Hades. That was in fact his soul and spirit. This is not a mere parable but the unveiling of the afterlife by Christ.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#53
All souls -- saved or unsaved -- are imperishable. Please read and study Luke 16:19-31. Also study Sheol throughout the OT.

The rich man was very much alive in Hades. That was in fact his soul and spirit. Lazarus too was very much alive in Hades. That was in fact his soul and spirit. This is not a mere parable but the unveiling of the afterlife by Christ.
Yes, I agree the rich man was alive in Hades. But I'm not certain he will be after the resurrection and judgement and second death.

And I'm not certain all souls are imperishable.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#54
Well...yeah, I do think there is a second death. I'm just not 100% positive that second death isn't a loss of eternal life (of ANY sort). If you live separated from God on earth and then die the first death, I think to die the second death may be to not live AT ALL. Otherwise, the second death would not be a second death. It would be a miserable eternal existence. And that isn't what scripture seems to say to me.
Morning Stunnedbygrace,

This is what I have been trying to convey to you. Death does not mean non-existence. To exist in separation from God and in punishment in the lake of fire, is not life. As I said before, both life and death are states of existence.

Life = Eternal existence in the kingdom of God

Death = Eternal existence in separation from God in the lake of fire.

You seem to be relating existence with life, which is false. Both life and death are states of existence. Only existence in the kingdom of God is life. Those who are separated from God in punishment is death, while still existing.

Regarding this, consider the following:

"And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. Day and night there will be no rest for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

The verse above is regarding the fate of those who will worship the beast, his image and receive his mark. The verse states that those who end up in the lake of fire, which is the second death, the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever and they will have no rest day or night. In order to experience that they would have to be existing, conscious and aware. And though those people are existing and experiencing that punishment, they are in the state of the second death.

Existence does not equal life. Ones status with God equals either life or death, both being states of existence.

Everyone who comes into the world exists forever, existence in the kingdom of God is life, existence in separation from God is death.

I hope that this explanation makes it clearer.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#55
Not as certain as you that the second death for a human is an eternity of torturous existence. I rather suspect God took away that option by not allowing eating from the tree that would have caused an eternal existence in a corrupted state.

Concerning no rest day or night, I don't know but it sounds like saying that now, for all eternity, they will never enter Gods rest.

I seriously do not believe we are born with eternity in us.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#56
Not as certain as you that the second death for a human is an eternity of torturous existence. I rather suspect God took away that option by not allowing eating from the tree that would have caused an eternal existence in a corrupted state.

Concerning no rest day or night, I don't know but it sounds like saying that now, for all eternity, they will never enter Gods rest.

I seriously do not believe we are born with eternity in us.
The problem with your claim is that, in order to experience no rest day or night, one would have to be existing. If one does not exist, then he can't experience not having any rest day or night. Consider the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The same word "aionios" which is an adjective of "aion" is used to describe both the state of the wicked and the righteous, which must carry the same meaning.

That said, since we know that eternal life is on-going conscious existence in the kingdom of God. Then eternal punishment must also be on-going conscious existence in punishment.

You can't have one mean on-going existence and the other mean temporary. If the state of death is non-existence, the state of life would have to be non-existence as well, because the same word is used for both groups.

According to what scripture teaches as a whole, everyone who comes into the world exists forever. Life and death are both states of conscious existence and is determined from an individuals state of being with God.
 

Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
Nov 12, 2015
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#57
The problem with your claim is that, in order to experience no rest day or night, one would have to be existing. If one does not exist, then he can't experience not having any rest day or night. Consider the following:

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The same word "aionios" which is an adjective of "aion" is used to describe both the state of the wicked and the righteous, which must carry the same meaning.

That said, since we know that eternal life is on-going conscious existence in the kingdom of God. Then eternal punishment must also be on-going conscious existence in punishment.

You can't have one mean on-going existence and the other mean temporary. If the state of death is non-existence, the state of life would have to be non-existence as well, because the same word is used for both groups.

According to what scripture teaches as a whole, everyone who comes into the world exists forever. Life and death are both states of conscious existence and is determined from an individuals state of being with God.
It's not exactly a claim I'm making tukee. It's my view, my understanding or interpretation of what I'm reading. I'm not saying I'm right and you're a wrong idjit. I'm sharing my take on it based on how I see the verses fitting together in some semblance of sense. And I'm never as certain as others sometimes are about some of these matters because I know I just don't have complete and total understanding.

Concerning aion, it could be said that non-existence IS an eternal state. An eternal state of non-existence, with no way of it ever changing.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#58
I've also wondered if when God says Abel's blood cried to Him from the ground, if this is also relevant in some way...
Like when Paul says he was caught up to the third heaven and couldn't say whether he was even in his body or out of it at the time?

Can't really think of any verses where someone visited hell...
I believe that after Jesus died he descended into hell for 3 days preaching to the spirits in prison. There is a reference to this in 1 Peter 3:19.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
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#59
Hello oldethennew,

Every person who has died in a reconciled state to God, their spirits are now in His presence, conscious and aware and are waiting for the resurrection of their bodies from there. While those of us who will be alive at the time of the resurrection will be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with them.

Taking all scriptures regarding death into consideration, life and death are both states of eternal, conscious existence. It is ones status with God which will determine where that eternal existence will be spent. For those in Christ they are promised life, which is eternal, conscious existence in the kingdom of God. For those who die in their sins, they will also exist forever conscious and aware, albeit in a resurrected body in separation from God in the lake of fire.

Death is not defined as annihilation or non existence, but complete loss of well being, ruination.
With the exception of the two statements in orange, I completely disagree with everything you stated.

If a person is existing, he is not dead, he is alive. If a person is "conscious and aware", he is not dead, he is alive. The orthodox Christian belief that death is "separation from God" is not true. When people die, they are dead. Not alive. Not existing. The Bible says in many places that the wicked will be "cut off". It even says of Satan that "never shalt thou be any more" (Eze 28:19). Fire is not a preservative, it destroys things. When people or spirit beings are thrown into the lake of fire, they will burn up. Some may burn a lot longer than others, but all of them will eventually burn up and be gone forever.

There is no such thing as the "immortal soul". Matt 10:28 proves it.

Mat 10:
28) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna, the lake of fire].

The word for "destroy" is Apollumi, which means "to cause or experience destruction". Destruction means destruction, not alive being tormented forever.

The wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torments. God is just, and there is no sin for which a just punishment would be eternal torture.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
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#60
It's not exactly a claim I'm making tukee. It's my view, my understanding or interpretation of what I'm reading. I'm not saying I'm right and you're a wrong idjit. I'm sharing my take on it based on how I see the verses fitting together in some semblance of sense. And I'm never as certain as others sometimes are about some of these matters because I know I just don't have complete and total understanding.

Concerning aion, it could be said that non-existence IS an eternal state. An eternal state of non-existence, with no way of it ever changing.
Hello again,

The definition of Aion can mean "an age, cycle of time or eternity," but eternal must be interpreted as existing in regards to individuals. For example, you can't have no rest day or night unless you exist to experience not having rest. You can't experience eternal punishment if you don't exist. In fact, the words "apollumi, apoleia and olethros" usually translated as "destruction or perish" specifically say that they do imply annihilation or extinction right in the definition.

The fact that we have scriptures 2 Cor.5:6 and Philippians 1:22-24 which tells us directly that the spirit of those in Christ departs and goes immediately to be in the presence of the Lord. Then we have the event of the rich man and Lazarus who when the rich man died states that he was buried and went to Sheol/Hades where he was/is in torment in flame.

As far as you not being certain, I am giving the benefit of information regarding these subjects, complete with scriptures to back them up. Now, the event of the rich man and Lazarus should be enough to convince you of eternal existence, that is unless you do what so many have done and turn it into a parable and thereby distort the meaning.

If you believe that Satan and his angels are tormented eternally, why not the human beings that follow him? And what do you think about this group listed below:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

The above is regarding the judgment of the sheep and goats when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. Notice that those human beings are to the same eternal fire that Satan and his angels are going to. And we know that Satan will be existing in the lake of fire and not annihilated, which can be seen from the following:

"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Again, in order to be tormented day and night for ever and ever, Satan, the beast and the false prophet would have to be existing in order to experience the torment, which is the same that I pointed out for those who worship the beast, his image and receive his mark.

I have just been giving you the benefit of many, many years of knowledge on this topic. If you don't want to hear it, then I can respect that.