Does a person have to be forgiven by God to be saved or healed?

[know1]

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults [repent] one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Luk 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Luk 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.



Mar 4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.


Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults [repent] one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

God forgave the sins of all that he gave his Son on the cross and looked upon them as holy and without blame. The natural man will not ask forgiveness for breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. He does not think he sins against a spiritual God that he does not think exists. The only people who asks forgiveness from God are those that have been born of the Spirit.

 

[JamOn]

Healed hmm there is a account in the Bible where the person didn’t know who healed him a man yes but it took the second meeting with the person to know the man was Jesus.

so a far as healing it can happen for his purposes.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Healed hmm there is a account in the Bible where the person didn’t know who healed him a man yes but it took the second meeting with the person to know the man was Jesus.

so a far as healing it can happen for his purposes.

All of those mentioned in the initial quotes of Matt, Mark, Luke and James are born again children of God.

 

[JamOn]

All of those mentioned in the initial quotes of Matt, Mark, Luke and James are born again children of God.

I’m referring to the paraplegic at the pool

John 5
9And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath. 10The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.”

11He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ”

12Then they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?” 13But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. 14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

15The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

 

[know1]

God forgave the sins of all that he gave his Son on the cross and looked upon them as holy and without blame.

Why did God forgive the person's sins?
For what purpose?
Then according to your understanding of the word of God, God had to forgive the person's sins to be saved, correct?

The natural man will not ask forgiveness for breaking a spiritual law that he cannot discern. He does not think he sins against a spiritual God that he does not think exists. The only people who asks forgiveness from God are those that have been born of the Spirit.

That is not true.
I know many people calling themselves a Christian or believer in Christ, who are very carnally minded [who both think of and look at/to the natural], who ask for forgiveness, and some who think they are born again, and are not, who also ask for God's forgiveness, and those who are not born again, but believe there is a God in Heaven who sees all, who ask for forgiveness.
Before one of God's sheep is born again, they must repent of their doubt and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? Because doubting the word of God, which is God, is a sin that will condemn a person to hell.

 

[know1]

All of those mentioned in the initial quotes of Matt, Mark, Luke and James are born again children of God.

Correct.
So they don't need to repent of their sins to be saved.
Then why do they need to repent of any sins they have committed?

 

[know1]

Healed hmm there is a account in the Bible where the person didn’t know who healed him a man yes but it took the second meeting with the person to know the man was Jesus.

so a far as healing it can happen for his purposes.

Can anyone have any faith in chance, luck, wishing, hoping, or wondering?
That is what you are suggesting.
And not to be mean, but there is absolutely NO faith, whatsoever, in that kind of believing, and it certainly isn't scriptural or part of the gospel.
What does the word of God say concerning healing?
Before Jesus healed anyone, what was John the Baptist's mission in life and what did He do?
Wasn't John sent to prepare the way of the Lord Jesus?
And how did He accomplish that and for what purpose?
Wasn't it to get the people to repent and confess their sins?
And how did that prepare the people for Jesus?
Perhaps one reason would be for them to be receptive to the message of the gospel, so they could both see, hear, and be receptive to the word of God, but could another reason be, to make healing either, easier or possible?
I put all three accounts of the sower sowing seed on my original post, for a reason.
If you were to put them together, it would read something like this.

lest they should believe the good news and should be saved/healed/protected/delivered/preserved/do well/to be or make whole [physically]/converted, and their sins should be forgiven them, and I should heal them.

The word, saved, mean, to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.

John went about to get people to repent so they could be receptive to the gospel and as well as to be healed of all their infirmities, for that was part of the whole gospel.

 

[know1]

Healed hmm there is a account in the Bible where the person didn’t know who healed him a man yes but it took the second meeting with the person to know the man was Jesus.

so a far as healing it can happen for his purposes.

I’m referring to the paraplegic at the pool

John 5
9And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath.
10The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, “It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed.”
11He answered them, “He who made me well said to me, ‘Take up your bed and walk.’ ”
12Then they asked him, “Who is the Man who said to you, ‘Take up your bed and walk’?”
13But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place.
14Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, “See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”
15The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

Why was this man impotent or with an infirmity?
Jesus said it was because of his sinning.
“See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

The whole reason why the man was that way was BECAUSE OF his sins.
So to be healed, his sins had to be forgiven.
That happened when he believed the word of Jesus and got up.
What about the account of the man on the bed who was let down through the roof?
What did Jesus say?

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Notice, Jesus made no distinction between healing and forgiveness of one's sins.

 

[JamOn]

Here’s what I believe, healing comes in Three verities, converted then healed, stricken then healed/converted example Paul, then healed to convertion as in the paraplegic. I’m surely not against what you mentioned in the opening post, but though I believe God can move in peoples lives in different ways to bring them into the flock and for his will for them.

 

[JamOn]

Why was this man impotent or with an infirmity?
Jesus said it was because of his sinning.
“See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you.”

The whole reason why the man was that way was BECAUSE OF his sins.
So to be healed, his sins had to be forgiven.
That happened when he believed the word of Jesus and got up.
What about the account of the man on the bed who was let down through the roof?
What did Jesus say?

Mar 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mar 2:8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?
Mar 2:9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?
Mar 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
Mar 2:11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

Notice, Jesus made no distinction between healing and forgiveness of one's sins.

sin no more doesn’t automatically mean he was a paraplegic because he sinned, that is not in scripture at all.

 

[Magenta]

sin no more doesn’t automatically mean he was a paraplegic because he sinned, that is not in scripture at all.

His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” Jesus answered, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but this happened so that the works of God would be displayed in him."

 

[JamOn]

sin no more doesn’t automatically mean he was a paraplegic because he sinned, that is not in scripture at all.

Though I’ll give you the benefit of doubt even if his sin caused him to be paraplegic, he was healed before he knew Jesus, the man states it, he had no idea who healed him only a man come up and said pick up your mat he did and walked.

 

[JamOn]

Though I’ll say this as well, sin goes way back to Adam and Eve, humans are born in corrupt body’s the world we live in is corrupt, diseases ailments getting old body’s breaking down is because of what happen in the garden

 

[know1]

Though I’ll give you the benefit of doubt even if his sin caused him to be paraplegic, he was healed before he knew Jesus, the man states it, he had no idea who healed him only a man come up and said pick up your mat he did and walked.

No man has to know Jesus to be healed, even in this man's case, he didn't have to know Jesus, but God had to forgive his sins, just like in the old testament times.
In the old testament, sin brought sickness on the people, just like obedience kept sickness away.

Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Deu 7:14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
Deu 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

 

[JamOn]

No man has to know Jesus to be healed, even in this man's case, he didn't have to know Jesus, but God had to forgive his sins, just like in the old testament times.
In the old testament, sin brought sickness on the people, just like obedience kept sickness away.

Exo 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

Deu 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
Deu 7:13 And he will love thee, and bless thee, and multiply thee: he will also bless the fruit of thy womb, and the fruit of thy land, thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep, in the land which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Deu 7:14 Thou shalt be blessed above all people: there shall not be male or female barren among you, or among your cattle.
Deu 7:15 And the LORD will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.

Deu 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

Indeed, so now you know healing can sometimes come before the blessing, God works in mysterious ways.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Why did God forgive the person's sins?
For what purpose?
Then according to your understanding of the word of God, God had to forgive the person's sins to be saved, correct?


That is not true.
I know many people calling themselves a Christian or believer in Christ, who are very carnally minded [who both think of and look at/to the natural], who ask for forgiveness, and some who think they are born again, and are not, who also ask for God's forgiveness, and those who are not born again, but believe there is a God in Heaven who sees all, who ask for forgiveness.
Before one of God's sheep is born again, they must repent of their doubt and believe the gospel of Jesus Christ, right? Because doubting the word of God, which is God, is a sin that will condemn a person to hell.

You are very uninformed of just how awful the born again child of God can be by his nature. Probably all of those that you are condemning to hell are just disobedient children of God who need to repent to get back in fellowship with their God. When we are born again we have a security of living in heaven and when we backslide, we do not lose our eternal security, just our fellowship, temporally, until we repent.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Correct.
So they don't need to repent of their sins to be saved.
Then why do they need to repent of any sins they have committed?

After Jesus died to pay for the sins of those that God gave to Jesus, God looks upon them, as far as heaven is concerned, as holy and without blame. Any sin that they (those he atoned for) will ever commit will not keep them out of heaven. It will cause them to lose their fellowship with God, because God will not fellowship with sin, until they repent and gain back their fellowship with their God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Correct.
So they don't need to repent of their sins to be saved.
Then why do they need to repent of any sins they have committed?

Hello Know1,

Which bible you reading? Mine says that repentance is required, otherwise the unrepentant will perish:

At that time, some of those present told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. To this He replied, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered this fate? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who were killed when the tower of Siloam collapsed on them: Do you think that they were more sinful than all the others living in Jerusalem? No, I tell you. But unless you repent, you too will all perish.” - Luke 13:1-5

Watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.” – Luke 17:3-4

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18But in this way God has fulfilled what He foretold through all the prophets, saying that His Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn back, so that your sins may be wiped away, 20that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that He may send Jesus, the Christ, who has been appointed for you. – Acts 3:17-22

Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. – 2 Pet.3:8-9

But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love. Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. – Rev.2:4-5

But I have a few things against you, because some of you hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to place a stumbling block before the Israelites so they would eat food sacrificed to idols and commit sexual immorality. In the same way, some of you also hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. Therefore repent! Otherwise I will come to you shortly and wage war against them with the sword of My mouth. – Rev.2:14-16

But I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads My servants to be sexually immoral and to eat food sacrificed to idols. Even though I have given her time to repent of her immorality, she is unwilling. Behold, I will cast her onto a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her will suffer great tribulation unless they repent of her deeds. Then I will strike her children dead, and all the churches will know that I am the One who searches minds and hearts, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds. – Rev.2:20-23

I know your deeds; you have a reputation for being alive, yet you are dead. 2Wake up and strengthen what remains, which was about to die; for I have found your deeds incomplete in the sight of My God. Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. – Rev.3:1-3

You say, ‘I am rich; I have grown wealthy and need nothing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Those I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore be earnest and repent. – Rev.3:19

Anyone who does not repent is willfully living according to the sinful nature, which leads to death.

 

[know1]

Indeed, so now you know healing can sometimes come before the blessing, God works in mysterious ways.

God works according to His word/promises/laws/truths.