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To start out, take into account what Rockrz and some others believe. They believe God isn't in control of everything. I've given biblical examples of God being in sovereign control despite man's fallen will. The example of Joseph and his brothers shows that despite man's evil intent, God still had a purpose for good and his will was sovereign. There was intent by both man and God. Evil intent on the part of man, and good intent on the part of God. Was their evil intent forced upon them or controlled or forced by God? No. Scripture doesn't teach that. They had their own creaturely wills and desires and God had his own sovereign good will and desires that trumped their's. He is in control and evil is subject unto him.
We see the same being true for the Assyrian King in Isaiah 10, and the same thing being true for the crucifixion. The Assyrian king had it in his heart to conquer nations and boasted about it. God goes on to wield the king and his army like a tool against the people he was punishing and then turns around and judges the king and his army for doing the very thing God used them to do. God says this in response to the King's boasting:
Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it,
or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?
As if a rod should wield him who lifts it,
or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!
Then consider this from Acts 4:
23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
What we see here in the above verses is intent and will being exercised by men who plotted against Jesus. But the next verses:
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
This is showing clearly that there was will and intent on man's part and on God's part to accomplish the very same act, that being to crucify Christ. This does not make them robots, nor does it in any way imply that God is evil which is a typical accusation against those of the reformed side. They had their own intent and purposes but God also had his. One was evil, the other was good. The good prevailed as it always will. Again, this is how we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. All things. God is sovereign even over evil.
As far as salvation goes and the elect. Our nature before being regenerated is to hate God and reject him, to run from him and hide. This nature is replaced by a new nature where we willingly turn to Christ and desire to obey and follow him. We love him because he first loved us. We follow and obey him because he made us alive. Everyone is born in sin and everyone is guilty before God. The elect are spared God's wrath by way of the Gospel and the cross through a supernatural rebirth. Is this a forcing or controlling like a robot? No. It's a change of nature. It is quite literally a miraculous change and rebirth. Turning to God is a natural thing for those who have been reborn and they do it willingly due to that new nature.
Also, consider this from Ezekiel 36:
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
Notice the difference in the "I wills" on Gods part and the "you wills" in man's response to what God does? Notice also that God does all of this for his sake and not the people's? This is where we should all arrive. It's for God's glory and for God's purposes and God is sovereign over everything.
We see the same being true for the Assyrian King in Isaiah 10, and the same thing being true for the crucifixion. The Assyrian king had it in his heart to conquer nations and boasted about it. God goes on to wield the king and his army like a tool against the people he was punishing and then turns around and judges the king and his army for doing the very thing God used them to do. God says this in response to the King's boasting:
Shall the axe boast over him who hews with it,
or the saw magnify itself against him who wields it?
As if a rod should wield him who lifts it,
or as if a staff should lift him who is not wood!
Then consider this from Acts 4:
23 When they were released, they went to their friends and reported what the chief priests and the elders had said to them. 24 And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, 25 who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,
“‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
and the peoples plot in vain?
26 The kings of the earth set themselves,
and the rulers were gathered together,
against the Lord and against his Anointed’—
What we see here in the above verses is intent and will being exercised by men who plotted against Jesus. But the next verses:
27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
This is showing clearly that there was will and intent on man's part and on God's part to accomplish the very same act, that being to crucify Christ. This does not make them robots, nor does it in any way imply that God is evil which is a typical accusation against those of the reformed side. They had their own intent and purposes but God also had his. One was evil, the other was good. The good prevailed as it always will. Again, this is how we know that all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. All things. God is sovereign even over evil.
As far as salvation goes and the elect. Our nature before being regenerated is to hate God and reject him, to run from him and hide. This nature is replaced by a new nature where we willingly turn to Christ and desire to obey and follow him. We love him because he first loved us. We follow and obey him because he made us alive. Everyone is born in sin and everyone is guilty before God. The elect are spared God's wrath by way of the Gospel and the cross through a supernatural rebirth. Is this a forcing or controlling like a robot? No. It's a change of nature. It is quite literally a miraculous change and rebirth. Turning to God is a natural thing for those who have been reborn and they do it willingly due to that new nature.
Also, consider this from Ezekiel 36:
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23 And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the Lord, declares the Lord God, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24 I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.28 You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29 And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30 I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord God; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.
Notice the difference in the "I wills" on Gods part and the "you wills" in man's response to what God does? Notice also that God does all of this for his sake and not the people's? This is where we should all arrive. It's for God's glory and for God's purposes and God is sovereign over everything.
So to dumb it all down you dont believe in determinism? Is this what you're saying? Or am I missing it?
