Does baptismal regeneration violate the core teaching of justification by faith alone (sola fide)?

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Is baptismal regeneration a biblical doctrine?

  • Yes, salvation begins at water baptism.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, salvation begins at the moment of faith.

    Votes: 18 100.0%

  • Total voters
    18

notuptome

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May 17, 2013
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Perhaps re-examining the definition of salvation will help you.
It would be especially helpful to define salvation alongside sanctification. I think you have the two confused.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Aug 12, 2019
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I know it's not. Time will tell. See ya.
Great. :)

I don't savor arguments with free-willers. However, it is the difference between glorifying God for salvation and continually glorifying one's own free will decisions as the deciding factor.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Right. What makes you wrong is your doctrines. What your belligerence does do is make you unpleasant to correspond with.


Jesus is neither milquetoast, effeminate, nor traditional, but he is most certainly a proponent of free will.


I have about 45 years under my belt, and I am convinced from my study of the scriptures that Calvinism is utterly false.



Gen 3:22) And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Man knows both good and evil, and can distinguish between them, and can choose to do good. It is good to believe the Gospel and become saved.

Deut 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

People can choose between life and death.

Josh 24:15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

We CHOOSE whom we will serve. The offer of salvation is extended to everyone. It's why we are to preach the Gospel, so people can hear it and have the chance to believe it.

There are many other scripture that prove people have free will. Acts 2:37-38; 16:30-31; Rom 10:9; Eph 1:13-14; 1 Tim 2:4; 1 Pet 3:9; and more.


That's too bad.


Isn't that exactly what you do, insist that it's your way or the highway? It would help considerably if you didn't erect so many strawman arguments just so you can knock them down and think you're right.

Good luck with your faith. I hope it gets you where you want to be.
By the way, anyone who has studied the Bible knows that mankind is not presented as knowing good from evil perfectly.

It is true that man was created in the image of God, but this image has been marred or distorted. Additionally, his intellect has been damaged through the Fall.

He deceives himself, as well as being deceived by Satan. Scripture calls him an offspring of Satan until he is regenerated (1 John 3).

Here's a description of man and the effects of the Fall, which are being denied:


The results of original sin include the following:
  • The unsaved live in spiritual darkness (Acts 26:18, Ephesians 4:17-18, Colossians 1:13)
  • The unsaved are spiritually dead and alienated from the life of God(Ephesians 2:1-2, 4:17-18, 5:8, Colossians 2:13)
  • The unsaved hate God, are hostile toward him and his law and are under his wrath (Romans 1:30, 5:9, 8:7, Ephesians 2:1-3, 5:6, Colossians 1:21)
  • The unsaved are slaves to sin (John 8:34, Romans 6:20)
  • The unsaved reflect the character of Satan, and as such reject God’s authority over their lives (John 8:43-44, I John 3:8-10)
  • The unsaved are spiritually deaf and blind and cannot understand the gospel message without God’s direct intervention (Isaiah 6:10, Jeremiah 6:10, Ezekiel 12:2, Mark 4:9-12, Luke 8:10, John 8:47, Deuteronomy 29:4, Matthew 13:13-15, John 12:37-40, Acts 28:26-27, 1 Corinthians 2:14, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4)
One of the revelations which God used to show me this at the moment of salvation is Jeremiah 17:9-10.

Jeremiah 17:9-10 9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 10 “I the Lord search the heart and test the mind. (ESV)

Other Scriptures indicate that man's nature is deceitful, which means that the man himself is fooled as to the depths of his sinfulness and the way his mind justifies his sin and hardens his conscience.

To be honest, I believe a lot of professing Christians, including more than its share of free-willers, are still unregenerated, because they don't seem to understand what radical corruption the Fall caused. If God hasn't shown them that, which he showed me at the moment of faith and repentance, I don't really have much confidence these professors really possess salvation.

I'm not saying they need perfect theological vocabulary but they should have been aware that God radically changed their mind, which led to their faith and repentance, if they really experienced it.

However, if their salvation consists in writing their name under some bogus sinners' prayer in a cheap bible, or walking to the front of the church a dozen times in tears, without being aware of their deceitful, sinful nature, I would doubt that the Holy Spirit has done a work of regeneration in them.
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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I have. How was Saul's baptism a public attestation or a mere symbol (Acts 9:17-19)? How about the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:34-40)?
Public means "existing in open view ". Two or more.
As for "how is it sybolic?"...well...it sthe same way as any other water baptism. The word "baptize" means "to fully submerge".
So when a person is born again, they are fully submerged with the Spirit of God, in fact, they have "become one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17). So water baptism symbolizes this previous baptism of our spirit (into Christ).
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we read that by one Spirit we are baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. So in what sense would believers be water baptized into Christ? Would it be in the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" in 1 Corinthians 10:2? In regards to identification?

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on/clothed yourself with Christ. The Greek word for "put on" is "enduo" and means to enclose oneself in, as when one "puts on" clothes or armor or some other item. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Just as 1 Corinthians 10:2 says that all (the Israelites) were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses.

So how does one "put on" Christ in baptism? Is it because one becomes a "child of God" through water baptism? NO. Is Paul saying that we become children of God by water baptism as much as children of God by faith in Christ? NO. Galatians 3:26 - For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus (Period.) *NOT through faith AND water baptism. Also read John 1:12 - But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. *Received Him, given the right to become children of God, through believing in His name, NOT through water baptism.

"Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light...put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:12,14). This exhortation is written to Christians (those already saved). Evidently then, baptism is not the only way to "put on" Christ. To "put on" Christ is to conform to Him, imitate Him. So it is in baptism; we "put on" Christ, conforming to Him in the ordinance that declares Him to be our Savior. So if "put on" Christ means saved through water baptism according to your argument, apparently we are not saved yet. We must also "put on" Christ by making no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts in order to be saved after baptism as well (Romans 13:14) according to your logic using Galatians 3:27. Let's be consistent.
It is evident that studying our Hebrew history is necessary. Here's a note on Galatians 3:27 from the authors of the Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible published by Zondervan.

3:27 baptized into Christ ... clothed yourselves with Christ. Everyone would understand Paul's images. Jewish teachers normally expected Gentiles converting to Judaism to be baptized so they could join God's people; these converts were baptized naked and could then be reclothed after the baptism. Jewish writers could speak of being "clothed" with the Spirit or virtues.
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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Well Jews hated Gentiles so it would seem that the humiliation factor here was front and center.

Christ dwells not on the outside but in our hearts. The Holy Spirit fills our being and cleanses us from the inside out. Water can only wash the outside.

If you study the Greek you will find most of these passages use the Greek word for baptism that indicates a continuous baptism which is not possible with water.

Acts 8 is the clearest demonstration of water baptism and it clearly shows water baptism is for believers only. Believers not to be saved but because they are already saved.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
This will help your understanding of water baptism.
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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It would be especially helpful to define salvation alongside sanctification. I think you have the two confused.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
David Pawson does a great job of this very thing. Enjoy!
 

Diakonos

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It would be especially helpful to define salvation alongside sanctification. I think you have the two confused.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Salvation is threefold, from the inside out.

We have been saved...Justification-Salvation of the spirit. Saved from the Penalty of sin
We are being saved...Sanctification- Salvation of the soul- Saved from the Power of sin
We will be saved...Glorification-Salvation of the body- Saved from the Presence of sin
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Public means "existing in open view ". Two or more.
As for "how is it sybolic?"...well...it sthe same way as any other water baptism. The word "baptize" means "to fully submerge".
So when a person is born again, they are fully submerged with the Spirit of God, in fact, they have "become one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17). So water baptism symbolizes this previous baptism of our spirit (into Christ).
By the way, Gospel Coalition has a very good little booklet on baptism and the Lord's Supper.

It is only about 4 dollars on Amazon.

It covers both the paedobaptist view and the credobaptist view.

I am a credobaptist, but I can see where they get their teaching from.

I don't think that any other method but full immersion is reasonable, though. Baptism is a public display of our union with Christ, the same as the Lord's Supper. Christians, in a sense , participate in his crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection per Romans 6:1-14. I don't think any other mode besides full immersion conveys this imagery very well.

But, I don't separate with Reformed brothers like Presbyterians over this issue. I just don't think it shows the imagery very well.

Baptism and the Lord's Supper don't convey salvific grace like some claim, but in a way, they do convey grace in that they keep the believer aware of their union with Christ. These reminders are needful, just the same as remembering the point of marriage through observing anniversaries is helpful in the marriage covenant to remind us of our union with our spouse and the associated vows.
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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Public means "existing in open view ". Two or more.
As for "how is it sybolic?"...well...it sthe same way as any other water baptism. The word "baptize" means "to fully submerge".
So when a person is born again, they are fully submerged with the Spirit of God, in fact, they have "become one spirit with Him" (1 Cor 6:17). So water baptism symbolizes this previous baptism of our spirit (into Christ).
Do you have scripture to support that water baptism symbolizes the "previous baptism of our spirit (into Christ)"?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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By beginning the salvation process that starts with belief and repentance.
I thought you were lacking a correct knowledge of salvation. It is not a process it is an event. We are saved the moment we receive Christ as Savior. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is not a process nor does it require any additional elements.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

EternalFire

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Jan 3, 2019
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I thought you were lacking a correct knowledge of salvation. It is not a process it is an event. We are saved the moment we receive Christ as Savior. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is not a process nor does it require any additional elements.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
This will help your understanding of salvation.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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This will help your understanding of salvation.
I'll go with what the bible teaches. If you cannot articulate your points without a movie you are disappointing as a workman that needeth not be ashamed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Do you have scripture to support that water baptism symbolizes the "previous baptism of our spirit (into Christ)"?
Ephesians 1:13 and Acts 10.

Acts 10 clearly says that the family of Cornelius was already regenerated prior to their water baptism.

Ephesians 1:13 indicates that regeneration happens at the moment of faith, not baptism.
 

Diakonos

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Do you have scripture to support that water baptism symbolizes the "previous baptism of our spirit (into Christ)"?
It would take a long time to give a full answer because the word symbol isn't used, but by studying the Greek one can identify the figures of speech used in the verses about baptism. For example, in 1 Cor 12:13 we find what's called a "structural metaphor";
"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." The body is not the physical water that another believer baptizes you into. And you don't drink the water either. But.... this physical water represent (symbolizes) the Living Water, who is the Holy Spirit. The "body" is referring to the body of Christ, who is a spiritual temple made of living stones (1 Pet 2:5). So when you are saved, you are literally baptized into the spiritual house of God, making your body now a piece of the Temple of the Holy Spirit. Justification is the moment that you believe in Jesus through Faith....The Holy Spirit baptizes you into Jesus. You are at that point "in Christ".

On a less technical point, consider this:
Jesus said "if you love me, you will obey my commandments"
-we can't love God until we are born again (1 John 4:7)
-baptism is a command (Acts 2:38)
-we can't obey His commands unless we love Him (John 14:15)

To Conclude all this:

"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
-Acts 10:47
 

Washed

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Ephesians 1:13 indicates that regeneration happens at the moment of faith, not baptism.
Calvinists need to think about that verse...

Regeneration (the new birth) happens at the moment of faith, not before the person is able to have faith, which is what they claim.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Calvinists need to think about that verse...

Regeneration (the new birth) happens at the moment of faith, not before the person is able to have faith, which is what they claim.
Free-willers claim that faith and repentance must be dredged out of an unsaved person's heart of stone.

Reformed people are convicted that faith and repentance is the fruit of the heart of flesh, which God gives to the elect, and the man with a stony heart cannot produce it.

Which one sounds more coherent?

By the way, my conviction is that repentance and faith happens almost at the same instant as regeneration, with the regeneration producing the faith and repentance, therefore logically repentance must precede faith and repentance.

This view gives ALL the credit to God, and NONE to the man. This is much more God-honoring. There is absolutely no room for boasting in the Reformed conviction.

Didn't we already have this discussion on another thread?

I'm glad to have it here, too, but I think that might get pretty old.

By the way, all folks have to do is read my signature and they will know what my conviction on that issue. I've only said the same things about 500 times here. I am convicted that decisional regeneration is absurd, whether it's the majority position or not.
 

UnitedWithChrist

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Calvinists need to think about that verse...

Regeneration (the new birth) happens at the moment of faith, not before the person is able to have faith, which is what they claim.
As I have said, the unsaved person, with a heart of stone, cannot produce the spiritual fruit of faith and repentance. That is why he needs a heart of flesh. He can't produce spiritual fruit without it. That is why regeneration must precede faith.

By the way, I view the Holy Spirit's work of regeneration to be separate from indwelling, although it is very closely related temporally.

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