Does God exist outside of time?

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BenFTW

BenFTW

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#61
Oct 7, 2012
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#61
Its so weird, again, to think of God as this infinite being who has always existed because... its not like He said, "Oh, here I AM." As if it was some moment of realization, of His eternal existence, and then He started speaking things into existence. At least, as far as I know. Its as if its unfathomable to ponder, leaving within me wonderment.

Is it even a valid question to ask what was His first decree? What was His first anything? Did He have a first "something" having eternally existed? lol :confused:
 
Laish

Laish

Senior Member
#62
Jul 31, 2016
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#62
BenFTW said:
Its so weird, again, to think of God as this infinite being who has always existed because... its not like He said, "Oh, here I AM." As if it was some moment of realization, of His eternal existence, and then He started speaking things into existence. At least, as far as I know. Its as if its unfathomable to ponder, leaving within me wonderment.

Is it even a valid question to ask what was His first decree? What was His first anything? Did He have a first "something" having eternally existed? lol :confused:
Click to expand...
Been what’s cool to think about is that eternity and infinite all related to time so they are all a part of God’s creation. Now God preexisted His creation. That means that God is beyond infinite and eternal. That my friend makes me reach for the aspirin.
What a truly awesome God we serve.
Blessings
Bill
 
Zmouth

Zmouth

Senior Member
#63
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#63
BenFTW said:
Okay, lol, let me try to clarify. God has always existed. Right? So, whenever He did something, anything, is the point at which we can then measure time.

"-" <---- represents eternity, okay? "_" <------ this represents an action or point in eternity that occurred. The arrows at each end will represent going on forever, no beginning and no end.

<----------------_----------------->

So, what we can gather from this is that time can only be measured at the moment ( "_") something occurs, and prior to that moment time couldn't be told or measured.

Now, when we take that "occurrence" or "moment" and wait for another, we then can tell time, based upon measurement.

<-------------_---------------------------_-------->

At least, to me, that seems logical. That time can only work with a reference point (in our case, a beginning), but in eternity as a moment taking place and then from there onward.

Its kind of weird to think of, because God has always existed with no beginning and no end, He is eternal, so does that mean He doesn't have a first action, thought, creation, or moment that can be measured? At the very least, from an eternal stand point, God could measure how long it has been since He created the world from eternity, or use any, again, moment that took place and then start counting (such as Heaven, angels, etc).
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That doesn't even make sense. Since finite has two definitive points, represented by o ~ o, then these two points are reflected by o, and the ~ represents the measure between these two points.

Since the eternal has no beginning or ending point, it would have no measure of time, because there is no point, either starting point or beginning point by which one could hope to begin calculate a measure of time by.

So if only the eternal has no starting point, then anything with a starting point would not be eternal, and if not eternal it would have an ending point. So if in the beginning was the 'Word' and the "Word' was with God, then who was before the Word and the Spirit?
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#64
Apr 18, 2016
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#64
BenFTW said:
Okay, lol, let me try to clarify. God has always existed. Right? So, whenever He did something, anything, is the point at which we can then measure time.

"-" <---- represents eternity, okay? "_" <------ this represents an action or point in eternity that occurred. The arrows at each end will represent going on forever, no beginning and no end.

<----------------_----------------->

So, what we can gather from this is that time can only be measured at the moment ( "_") something occurs, and prior to that moment time couldn't be told or measured.

Now, when we take that "occurrence" or "moment" and wait for another, we then can tell time, based upon measurement.

<-------------_---------------------------_-------->

At least, to me, that seems logical. That time can only work with a reference point (in our case, a beginning), but in eternity as a moment taking place and then from there onward.

Its kind of weird to think of, because God has always existed with no beginning and no end, He is eternal, so does that mean He doesn't have a first action, thought, creation, or moment that can be measured? At the very least, from an eternal stand point, God could measure how long it has been since He created the world from eternity, or use any, again, moment that took place and then start counting (such as Heaven, angels, etc).
Click to expand...
Time, is for man, not angels or any other thing- the sun up there is for numbering your days here on earth, once we die, there's no such thing as time.
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#65
Oct 7, 2012
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#65
Zmouth said:
That doesn't even make sense. Since finite has two definitive points, represented by o ~ o, then these two points are reflected by o, and the ~ represents the measure between these two points.

Since the eternal has no beginning or ending point, it would have no measure of time, because there is no point, either starting point or beginning point by which one could hope to begin calculate a measure of time by.

So if only the eternal has no starting point, then anything with a starting point would not be eternal, and if not eternal it would have an ending point. So if in the beginning was the 'Word' and the "Word' was with God, then who was before the Word and the Spirit?
Click to expand...
Right, but in eternity something took place. Whether it be God speaking something, or God doing anything whatsoever, that would be a definitive point, or a reference point, of time (a starting point). You can only quantify time by having a form of measurement, right? As you said, finite has two definitive points, so in eternity you would have to have a definitive point (some moment, action, occurrence, etc) to then be able to calculate time from that point.

This means that while eternity by definition has existed forever, we can still by taking one moment that took place (in eternity), calculate a period of time from that moment 'til now (thereby telling time). I am not saying eternity had a beginning, but I am saying that if we make two points from two events (that took place in eternity), we can calculate a period of time (whether that be billions, trillions, or zillions of years).

Also, the eternal can have a beginning, only that what was once finite took on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:53-55 King James Version (KJV)

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

We will exist for all eternity henceforth, when we are given glorified bodies. Christ has given us eternal life. So that means that immortality can be created, but it is created by God, who is eternal. Or, given by God.


 
BenFTW

BenFTW

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#66
Oct 7, 2012
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#66
Noose said:
Time, is for man, not angels or any other thing- the sun up there is for numbering your days here on earth, once we die, there's no such thing as time.
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Time might be irrelevant once in eternity, but could you not determine how long you have lived eternal life from the moment you received it (eternal life)? I am not saying anyone would care to do this, as if we would be celebrating birthdays (lol), but could you imagine five trillion years into eternity? Existing like that, feels somewhat scary if I'm being honest. Always existing, let that sink in.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#67
Apr 18, 2016
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#67
BenFTW said:
Its so weird, again, to think of God as this infinite being who has always existed because... its not like He said, "Oh, here I AM." As if it was some moment of realization, of His eternal existence, and then He started speaking things into existence. At least, as far as I know. Its as if its unfathomable to ponder, leaving within me wonderment.

Is it even a valid question to ask what was His first decree? What was His first anything? Did He have a first "something" having eternally existed? lol :confused:
Click to expand...
God did not 'speak' things into existence in a literal sense, God is spirit(Mind) and a spirit is immaterial. Immaterial things don't speak literally but the expression of the mind itself into something physical is what we call speech/word. IOW, God became everything that exists- There's an example of creation that took place some 2000 years ago, God became Jesus.

God is timeless, so to Him there's no first and second things, even the event that happened 2000 years, to Him, these and many things that are yet to happen are in the beginning.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#68
Jul 24, 2016
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#68
Desdichado said:
Thread title says it all. I don't know which way to go on this one.

Give reasons why/why not.
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I believe God exists outside our Universe time for sure.. Though He can and does enter out time and observes out times at all times..

The verse below leads me to this conclusion::

2 Peter 3: KJV
8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Note the verse says Both that to the LORD One Day ( his day ) is as 1000 of our years And that 1000 God years are as One of our days.. This means that Gods time is not directly geared to our times.. They are both totally independant of each other,, unlinked..
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#69
Apr 18, 2016
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#69
BenFTW said:
Time might be irrelevant once in eternity, but could you not determine how long you have lived eternal life from the moment you received it (eternal life)? I am not saying anyone would care to do this, as if we would be celebrating birthdays (lol), but could you imagine five trillion years into eternity? Existing like that, feels somewhat scary if I'm being honest. Always existing, let that sink in.
Click to expand...
You don't get it, a year is the period the fully formed earth revolves around the sun once. The earth and the sun were made for man (Genesis 1), before the beginning, God describes Himself as ancient of days because it wouldn't make sense to us with regards to time. So, time as we know it, is for man.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#70
Apr 18, 2016
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#70
Adstar said:
I believe God exists outside our Universe time for sure.. Though He can and does enter out time and observes out times at all times..

The verse below leads me to this conclusion::

2 Peter 3: KJV
8 "But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Note the verse says Both that to the LORD One Day ( his day ) is as 1000 of our years And that 1000 God years are as One of our days.. This means that Gods time is not directly geared to our times.. They are both totally independant of each other,, unlinked..
Click to expand...
Nope, the universe exists within God, therefore God is in the universe and also outside the universe.

Can i ask you a question? Does darkness exist within the universe or outside the universe or both?
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#71
Jul 24, 2016
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#71
Noose said:
Nope, the universe exists within God, therefore God is in the universe and also outside the universe.

Can i ask you a question? Does darkness exist within the universe or outside the universe or both?
Click to expand...
The Universe is the creation of God so it is seperate from God it is NOT a part of God..

And only God can answer the question of where darkness exists..
 
T

Tofino

Junior Member
#72
Mar 6, 2017
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#72
No beginning and no end, God is a Spirit, not holding corporeal form; much of our concepts of God are misguided. Many look for a God that we can hang a picture of on the wall, something tactile. Time and space are our constructs in which we bring God closer to our understanding.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#73
Jul 3, 2015
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#73
Scripture contains many evidences of time in Heaven:

Heaven’s inhabitants track with events happening in time, right
down to rejoicing the moment a sinner on Earth repents (Luke 15:7).

Martyrs in Heaven are told to “wait a little longer” when they ask “how
long” before Christ would judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge
the martyrs’ blood (Revelation 6:10-11). Those in Heaven couldn’t ask “how
long” or be told “wait a little longer” unless time passes in Heaven.

Paul spoke of Heaven in terms of “the coming ages” (Ephesians 2:7).
He speaks not just of a future age but of ages (plural).

God’s people in Heaven “serve him day and night in his temple” (Rev 7:15).

The tree of life on the New Earth will be “yielding its fruit every month” (Rev 22:2).
There are days and months both in the intermediate and eternal Heaven.

God says, “the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure
before me. . . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath t
o another, all mankind will come and bow down before me” (Isa 66:22-23).
New Moons and Sabbaths require moon, sun, and time.

God said, “Summer and winter, day and night will never cease” (Gen 8:22).
This wasn’t the result of the Curse; it was God’s original design.

We’re told that “there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Rev 8:1).

The book of Revelation shows the intermediate Heaven’s inhabitants
operating within time. The descriptions of worship include successive
actions, such as falling down at God’s throne and casting crowns
before him (Revelation 4:10). There’s a sequence of events;
things occur one after another, not all at once.

The inhabitants of Heaven sing (Revelation 5:9-12). Music in
Heaven requires time. Meter, tempo, and rests are all essential
components of music, and each is time related. Certain notes
are held longer than others. Songs have a beginning, middle,
and end. That means they take place in time.

https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/3/will-there-be-space-and-time-eternal-heaven/

The page contains a lot of fuel for thought :)
 
BenFTW

BenFTW

Senior Member
#74
Oct 7, 2012
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#74
Magenta said:
Scripture contains many evidences of time in Heaven:

Heaven’s inhabitants track with events happening in time, right
down to rejoicing the moment a sinner on Earth repents (Luke 15:7).

Martyrs in Heaven are told to “wait a little longer” when they ask “how
long” before Christ would judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge
the martyrs’ blood (Revelation 6:10-11). Those in Heaven couldn’t ask “how
long” or be told “wait a little longer” unless time passes in Heaven.

Paul spoke of Heaven in terms of “the coming ages” (Ephesians 2:7).
He speaks not just of a future age but of ages (plural).

God’s people in Heaven “serve him day and night in his temple” (Rev 7:15).

The tree of life on the New Earth will be “yielding its fruit every month” (Rev 22:2).
There are days and months both in the intermediate and eternal Heaven.

God says, “the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure
before me. . . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath t
o another, all mankind will come and bow down before me” (Isa 66:22-23).
New Moons and Sabbaths require moon, sun, and time.

God said, “Summer and winter, day and night will never cease” (Gen 8:22).
This wasn’t the result of the Curse; it was God’s original design.

We’re told that “there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Rev 8:1).

The book of Revelation shows the intermediate Heaven’s inhabitants
operating within time. The descriptions of worship include successive
actions, such as falling down at God’s throne and casting crowns
before him (Revelation 4:10). There’s a sequence of events;
things occur one after another, not all at once.

The inhabitants of Heaven sing (Revelation 5:9-12). Music in
Heaven requires time. Meter, tempo, and rests are all essential
components of music, and each is time related. Certain notes
are held longer than others. Songs have a beginning, middle,
and end. That means they take place in time.

https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/3/will-there-be-space-and-time-eternal-heaven/

The page contains a lot of fuel for thought :)
Click to expand...
Awesome post, thanks for sharing.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#75
Jul 18, 2017
24,429
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#75
Noose said:
Nope, the universe exists within God, therefore God is in the universe and also outside the universe.
Click to expand...
Sounds like Pantheism.

Pantheism is the view that God is everything and everyone - and consequently that everyone and everything is God.
Click to expand...
Or perhaps Panentheism

Panentheism, literally "all-in-God-ism", "affirms that although God and the world are ontologically distinct [i.e., not the same] and God transcends the world, the world is 'in' God ontologically." This is not to be confused with pantheism, which understands God to be the world. For most panentheists, God is intimately connected to the world and yet remains greater than the world.
Click to expand...
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#76
Jul 3, 2015
55,876
26,038
113
#76
BenFTW said:
Awesome post, thanks for sharing.
Click to expand...
You are welcome, Ben! Thank you for making this thread :D I enjoyed reading what I found in order to make my post here. There is quite a bit more information on the site I linked to :) It is all excerpted from Randy Alcorn’s book Heaven, which I had never heard of before :eek:
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#77
Jul 24, 2016
7,426
3,477
113
#77
Magenta said:
Scripture contains many evidences of time in Heaven:

Heaven’s inhabitants track with events happening in time, right
down to rejoicing the moment a sinner on Earth repents (Luke 15:7).

Martyrs in Heaven are told to “wait a little longer” when they ask “how
long” before Christ would judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge
the martyrs’ blood (Revelation 6:10-11). Those in Heaven couldn’t ask “how
long” or be told “wait a little longer” unless time passes in Heaven.

Paul spoke of Heaven in terms of “the coming ages” (Ephesians 2:7).
He speaks not just of a future age but of ages (plural).

God’s people in Heaven “serve him day and night in his temple” (Rev 7:15).

The tree of life on the New Earth will be “yielding its fruit every month” (Rev 22:2).
There are days and months both in the intermediate and eternal Heaven.

God says, “the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure
before me. . . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath t
o another, all mankind will come and bow down before me” (Isa 66:22-23).
New Moons and Sabbaths require moon, sun, and time.

God said, “Summer and winter, day and night will never cease” (Gen 8:22).
This wasn’t the result of the Curse; it was God’s original design.

We’re told that “there was silence in heaven for about half an hour” (Rev 8:1).

The book of Revelation shows the intermediate Heaven’s inhabitants
operating within time. The descriptions of worship include successive
actions, such as falling down at God’s throne and casting crowns
before him (Revelation 4:10). There’s a sequence of events;
things occur one after another, not all at once.

The inhabitants of Heaven sing (Revelation 5:9-12). Music in
Heaven requires time. Meter, tempo, and rests are all essential
components of music, and each is time related. Certain notes
are held longer than others. Songs have a beginning, middle,
and end. That means they take place in time.

https://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/3/will-there-be-space-and-time-eternal-heaven/

The page contains a lot of fuel for thought :)
Click to expand...
Magenta God created the Heavens and the Earth..

Heaven is a creation, The Heavenly Angels where created to live in Heaven.. God created heaven.. God was before Heaven..

God will be creating a new heaven and a New earth one day..

Revelation 21: KJV
1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#78
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#78
Adstar said:
The Universe is the creation of God so it is seperate from God it is NOT a part of God..

And only God can answer the question of where darkness exists..
Click to expand...
Agreed, the universe is only separate from God because of sin, the reason God saves a man by reconciling man to Himself so that they are one again.
When God created Jesus, was Jesus part of God or separate from God?
Whatever answer you give, that's how God created every other thing.
 
N

Noose

Senior Member
#79
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
#79
Nehemiah6 said:
Sounds like Pantheism.


Or perhaps Panentheism
Click to expand...
Panethism makes sense to me.

God created Jesus by becoming Jesus, that's the same method everything else was created- God became everything, yet sin separated everything from God. Everything including inanimate objects like stones/ trees, have some level of consciousness that is part of God.
 
J

jb

Senior Member
#80
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
588
113
#80
Noose said:
Panethism makes sense to me.

God created Jesus by becoming Jesus, that's the same method everything else was created- God became everything, yet sin separated everything from God. Everything including inanimate objects like stones/ trees, have some level of consciousness that is part of God.
Click to expand...
God did not create Jesus, He is the Great I AM and has eternal pre-existence! (Exodus 3v14,15, John 8v58) John 1v1,14:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
 
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