Does man have a freewill ?

[Jimbone]

Does man have a freewill ?

Im not asking does man have a will, sure he does. God created man with a will, and man has a responsible and accountable will that God gave him at creation. However the question remains, does man have a freewill ?

Man though he has a will, his will isnt free from Gods Sovereign Will and Purpose. Mans will is always subservient to Gods Sovereign Purpose !

Im going to share some scripture which without doubt, indicate that mans will is subservient to Gods Will of Purpose.

Dan 4:34-35

34 And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:

35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Prov 16:9

9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.

Prov 19:21

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.

Jer 10:23

23 O Lord, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

These are just a few verses, there are many more !

This is only hard for those who haven't been spiritually born again. No, our will is NEVER "free" and is always a SLAVE of our nature. We are slaves to sin or slaves to obedience leading to righteousness. Gods word NEVER teaches us "free" will. The problem I see here far too often is people who are still blind to the things of the spirit conflate freewill with choice/agency. It's a fundemental difference that cannot be grasp by the spiritually dead, so makes this conversation impossible to have in truth. When people are blind to the truth, "we" can't show it to them. Only God can, so this debate goes on and on and on with no hope of ever being resoved. It just can't happen when only half the people in the conversation are 100% blind to the truth, they are in fact incapable of seein it.

 

[GWH]

This is only hard for those who haven't been spiritually born again. No, our will is NEVER "free" and is always a SLAVE of our nature. We are slaves to sin or slaves to obedience leading to righteousness. Gods word NEVER teaches us "free" will. The problem I see here far too often is people who are still blind to the things of the spirit conflate freewill with choice/agency. It's a fundemental difference that cannot be grasp by the spiritually dead, so makes this conversation impossible to have in truth. When people are blind to the truth, "we" can't show it to them. Only God can, so this debate goes on and on and on with no hope of ever being resoved. It just can't happen when only half the people in the conversation are 100% blind to the truth, they are in fact incapable of seein it.

Thus spake Pope J.

 

[Cameron143]

He said because they don't choose life. It's not difficult to understand when God provides the answers.

Who can resist God if He determines they are to be saved?

 

[Magenta]

Yes, in my theology a person who is dead in trespasses and sins and is by nature a child of wrath can be made alive by Christ. That is the good news of the gospel.

2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. (Eph 2:1–3)​

Does that mean you believe tares can choose to be wheat, and goats can choose to be sheep? There was never any question of people being able to be made alive in Christ. The question is, on what condition and at what time, by whose initiative? Jesus raises us to new life... when we were dead in trespasses and sins. That doesn't seem to mean much to some people. Just like it doesn't seem to mean much to some people that man's heart is incurably wicked and he cannot change himself. It is with the heart one believes, after all. The stony ground of man's incurably wicked heart is not good ground for bringing forth the good fruit of faith. So it seems something has to change first, even just so the individual can begin to receive and comprehend the spiritual things of God in order to believe. Because as Scripture says, The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What Say You? ~ When Scripture says there are none good, does it mean some are good? When Scripture says we all fall short, does it mean there are some who meet God's standards? When Scripture says, "The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned..." Does it mean the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God? Does it mean he really can understand the gospel message even though it is heard as foolishness to him as Scriptures say? Is the natural man gifted with wisdom even though he has no fear of God, which is the beginning of wisdom? Will the lover of darkness come into the light even though Scripture says he will not, because he suppresses the truth of God in unrighteousness and is actually defined as darkness itself, hates the light, and is a slave to sin, blinded to the truth and captive to the will of the devil, which many define as being free? Is the heart of the natural man, the stony ground which needs to be replaced, fit for receiving and growing the Seed of God's Word into faith? Will that incurably wicked heart choose of its own accord to believe? Will that bad tree bring forth the good fruit of faith even though Jesus said it was not possible?
Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

 

[Magenta]

Who can resist God if He determines they are to be saved?

A free willer.

Let's try this way:
What is the source of faith?
When God's word goes forth, does it ever not accomplish what God desires it to accomplish?

1 Corinthians 4 verse 7b; John 3 verse 27; Romans 9 verses 15-16 ~ What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did also receive it, why do you boast as not having received it? John replied, "A man can receive only that which is given him from heaven." "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it does not depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[lrs68]

Who can resist God if He determines they are to be saved?

Because that makes God to be a liar with His words to Moshe. So either you are misinterpreting or not understanding because Scripture should align with what God told Moshe.

 

[Cameron143]

Because that makes God to be a liar with His words to Moshe. So either you are misinterpreting or not understanding because Scripture should align with what God told Moshe.

No it doesn't. You misunderstand the scripture. God isn't obligated to act upon His desires any more than you are. You have desires you do not act upon.
Let's apply Isaiah 55:11...God's word going forth always accomplishing what God pleases. Two individuals attend a sermon. One is saved; the other not. Did God accomplished what He pleases?

 

[BillyBob]

So yes we have freewill, and the key is to remember that God is not constrained by the limitations of time like we are.

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand how you came to this conclusion.
There are many events in the bible where men wanted to do something but God said “not so fast there”. Take Acts 9:3-6 as an example, It is clear that Saul wanted to persecute the people of God but was not allowed to carry out his very own will.
So how does this fit into what you are saying? How can we have an entirely freewill, yet God prevent us from doing something?

 

[lrs68]

No it doesn't. You misunderstand the scripture. God isn't obligated to act upon His desires any more than you are. You have desires you do not act upon.
Let's apply Isaiah 55:11...God's word going forth always accomplishing what God pleases. Two individuals attend a sermon. One is saved; the other not. Did God accomplished what He pleases?

My original post that I appreciate you answered was a blind comment to the Thread Creators post and this post of yours just validated my original post.

Yes, I agree with you 100%

But I think we disagree on 1 portion where God said I hope they choose life. You believe they can't but I believe for God to say, I want them to choose life shows that man [and this is verified in Acts 17] is able to choose God even though he doesn't.

 

[Aaron56]

Who can resist God if He determines they are to be saved?

The Jews, and their fathers, listening to Stephen, for example:

“You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

The people who ignore the higher powers established by God for another...

"Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation."

Before the corruption of sin, the default setting of man was to follow the Spirit of God. Corruption, on its face, implies a state of purity. Yet, because of sin, that purity was lost for all people.

This is the benefit of salvation in Christ: an incorruptible life that is eternal, which was God's original intent.

So yes, man has the right to resist God. But when they refuse to resist God then they will receive Him. But they do not receive Him in their souls or flesh, they receive Him in their spirit.

Now, this spirit was given to them by God. This is why no one may brag that they have received God in their own efforts: it's only by the spirit of God in them, placed there by God, that they can agree with God.

But again, man may resist God. The Bible even says so. Paul, as Saul, did. The Jews did. And others.

Can God force someone to convert to belief against his or her will? Certainly. We are all His creation. In those cases the issue is typically not about salvation to go to heaven but salvation from the corruption in the world SO THAT he or she may be employed in God's service to bring His word into the earth to others.

 

[TomCullen]

The fact that a man can be tempted to do evil and refuse, indicates free will.

Why is this even a topic for discussion?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Let's try this way:
What is the source of faith?

God

When God's word goes forth, does it ever not accomplish what God desires it to accomplish?

if it did. everyone who ever read the words or heard jesus speak would be saved because they would all come to faith.

God came to Israel. they (as a nation) willingly rejected him, Not because God did not come and draw them, Or give them the words. or show them by what he did, but because they refused to believe.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Does that mean you believe tares can choose to be wheat, and goats can choose to be sheep? There was never any question of people being able to be made alive in Christ. The question is, on what condition and at what time, by whose initiative? Jesus raises us to new life... when we were dead in trespasses and sins. That doesn't seem to mean much to some people. Just like it doesn't seem to mean much to some people that man's heart is incurably wicked and he cannot change himself. It is with the heart one believes, after all. The stony ground of man's incurably wicked heart is not good ground for bringing forth the good fruit of faith. So it seems something has to change first, even just so the individual can begin to receive and comprehend the spiritual things of God in order to believe. Because as Scripture says, The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Thank you for the inspiration! I hope you and yours are well .

We obviously have different perspectives. You say a tare cannot become wheat, and a goat cannot become a sheep. But I say a person who is by nature a child of wrath can obtain a divine nature that gives him life. To my way of thinking, this is similar to a tare becomming wheat or a goat becomming a sheep, because the divine nature of the new man who was born of God is different than His human nature as a child of Adam. I know you don't want to acknowledge that our divine nature is a change of nature similar to changing from being goats to sheep, but I would argue going from being a human being to being the offspring of God is much more dramatic than a goat becoming a sheep. But I am sure this is not a convincing argument.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God told Moshe that He DESIRES that no one should perish and that everyone should choose life.

80% of all creation of humanity is going to Hell.

So God desires one thing but the opposite is happening. I suppose that is God getting His Will just the way He wants it even though His MOUTH said the very opposite...

thats called Gods love,, he will not force it on you. He allows you to keep your free will.

It is sad. how can we answer a question of a God who allows evil.. without the free will prospect?

there is no good answer apart from that

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Ok, you're not Calvinistic. So I misunderstood. Sorry.

don't let him fool ya

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Is God obligated to act on His desire?

does God not act on his desire?

I think he does..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God is able to save everyone. He doesn't. There must be some divine purpose in that.

free will? Love?

 

[Dus]

Not trying to argue, just trying to understand how you came to this conclusion.
There are many events in the bible where men wanted to do something but God said “not so fast there”. Take Acts 9:3-6 as an example, It is clear that Saul wanted to persecute the people of God but was not allowed to carry out his very own will.
So how does this fit into what you are saying? How can we have an entirely freewill, yet God prevent us from doing something?

I guess my take on that would be that in those cases God didn't make anyone do anything, I'd put it more that God communicated that what they were doing was not good for them, and then they chose to do the right thing. In the example I believe Saul could have ignored God and continued to persecute the church if he had wanted to. If we remember that Saul had an in depth knowledge of the word of God, then being met by the living Saviour basically by divine intervention, then I can totally understand that he would chose to obey.

There are plenty of examples in the bible where people have disobeyed a direct word from God, the most obvious probably being Adam and Eve.

I think God just does what is needed to actually get the message through to people, but it's still up to us to take Gods advice or not. I know that God has to put up literal brick walls in front of me sometimes to make me actually notice and listen because I'm stubborn

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Who can resist God if He determines they are to be saved?

so God forces people..

how you can read your post and your words you just spoke, and continue to think this does not say God forces people (who can resist0

I can not comprehend

 

[Magenta]

We obviously have different perspectives. You say a tare cannot become wheat, and a goat cannot become a sheep. But I say a person who is by nature a child of wrath can obtain a divine nature that gives him life. To my way of thinking, this is similar to a tare becomming wheat or a goat becomming a sheep, because the divine nature of the new man who was born of God is different than His human nature as a child of Adam. I know you don't want to acknowledge that our divine nature is a change of nature similar to changing from being goats to sheep, but I would argue going from being a human being to being the offspring of God is much more dramatic than a goat becoming a sheep. But I am sure this is not a convincing argument.

But I do wish to acknowledge that our divine nature is a dramatic change and that is the whole point of everything I've been saying... but it is a change not brought about by ourselves. That is what you will not be able to acknowledge. Scripture says that everything we have is given to us from heaven. Plus I don't see anywhere in scripture where Jesus talks about going to get any goats. He gave His life for His sheep. He also tells that the tares are to be left to grow alongside the wheat and not to be disturbed and that it is the angels at the end of the age who will do the sorting.