Does the Ever-virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture?

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Does the Ever-virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture?
Timothy Copple

Orthodox Inquirer/Convert - Does the Ever virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture

 

[Brandon777]

While there's no where in the Bible that says that Mary and Joseph "did it" for Jesus' sibilings, it's a ridiculous notion because than there would be somthing spectacularly special about Jesus' siblings. And the Holy Bible never mentions that his siblings has anything special about them. This idea midigates the uniquness and diety of Christ. God providing the male half of the genome is part of why Jesus is both man AND God. Plus there's no reason for Mary to remain a virgin for the other progeny. In this case I would say why place something in your theology that didn't come directly from the Bible?

 

[shroom2]

Does the Ever-virginity of Mary Contradict Scripture?

Yes. It is a religious concept developed and believed by catholics and the EOC. The bible says Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Christ was born. It plainly says Jesus had brothers and sisters. After the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary had a normal marital relationship, which included sex.

Mary was not "ever-virgin".

 

[dscherck]

Yes. It is a religious concept developed and believed by catholics and the EOC. The bible says Joseph did not have sex with Mary until after Christ was born. It plainly says Jesus had brothers and sisters. After the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary had a normal marital relationship, which included sex.

Mary was not "ever-virgin".

There is no evidence that these "brothers" were sons of Mary. The term "brothers" has been shown to refer to cousins, nephews, fellow tribesman, etc.

Not only that, we know from Scripture that these "brothers" all had different mothers as well.

 

[See_KING_Truth]

Actually, the bible does refer to Mary and Joseph having intercourse after Jesus' birth, although indirectly. By saying that Joseph knew her not until she had brought forth her firstborn, it is saying that they did not have intercourse until after the birth of Christ.

Matthew 1 (KVJ)

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

There is no evidence that these "brothers" were sons of Mary. The term "brothers" has been shown to refer to cousins, nephews, fellow tribesman, etc.

Not only that, we know from Scripture that these "brothers" all had different mothers as well.

Amen. Is Jesus God? Was Mary's womb visited by the Holy Spirit? Would a womb visited by the Holy Spirit become the Ark of the New Covenant? Yes! Would Joseph have to have relations with Mary to fulfill God's will? No! There is no reason for us or for our salvation for St. Joseph to have sex with the Virgin Mary. It contributes nothing to the will of God. The Jews knew that the Ark of the Covenant was holy, and to touch it meant certain death. Once the Holy Spirit touched Mary's womb, her womb was forever changed and sanctified by the Holy Spirit. That is why she is called "full of grace" in the Bible. She was full of God the Son in her womb. It would have been blasphemy against God's presence in her for her to have a consummated marriage with Joseph. Joseph would have respected the New Holy of Holies, the holiest place in all creation, the place where God the Son became a man.

 

[See_KING_Truth]

I will never understand why Mary is put up on such a pedistal. Joseph is the direct decendant of Abraham and David, Mary was only connected to that bloodline through Joseph. Mary is just a woman, and yes, she was blessed to have given birth to the only Son of God.

Do not worship her or the saints or even bow down to them, they all worked for the Glory of God, not for their own! Peter said "of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"

 

[eternally-gratefull]

There is no evidence that these "brothers" were sons of Mary. The term "brothers" has been shown to refer to cousins, nephews, fellow tribesman, etc.

Not only that, we know from Scripture that these "brothers" all had different mothers as well.

scripture? where

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

I will never understand why Mary is put up on such a pedistal. Joseph is the direct decendant of Abraham and David, Mary was only connected to that bloodline through Joseph. Mary is just a woman, and yes, she was blessed to have given birth to the only Son of God.

Do not worship her or the saints or even bow down to them, they all worked for the Glory of God, not for their own! Peter said "of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons"

Do not be one of the misbelievers who fails to call Mary "blessed among women, and blessed is the fruit of her womb". Think of it. God visited her. It is sacrilege to think she used her womb for anything other than the presence of God the Son. God is no respecter of persons. He does what He wills to do. He willed Mary to be Ever-Virgin. And He can do whatever He wants, not what fulfills the vain imaginations of the heterodox.
No Orthodox Christians worship Mary, the angels, or the Saints. Many "Protestants" disrespect Mary by saying she is not Ever-virgin.
No reason at all to do that, except pride. Ego.

 

[A-Omega]

At that time you were not even considered officially married until you consummated. Mary and Joseph were engaged (bethrothed) when she was pregnant and gave birth to our Lord. The fact that she was his wife after that (which she clearly was) means they consummated.

In addition to Jesus obviously having brothers and sisters as stated in scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do not be one of the misbelievers who fails to call Mary "blessed among women, and blessed is the fruit of her womb". Think of it. God visited her. It is sacrilege to think she used her womb for anything other than the presence of God the Son. God is no respecter of persons. He does what He wills to do. He willed Mary to be Ever-Virgin. And He can do whatever He wants, not what fulfills the vain imaginations of the heterodox.
No Orthodox Christians worship Mary, the angels, or the Saints. Many "Protestants" disrespect Mary by saying she is not Ever-virgin.
No reason at all to do that, except pride. Ego.

wow scott. what you just posted is nothing but pride and ego. you can't even prove by scripture this is true. and you judge others by saying it is their pride that causes us not to believe..

wow..

 

[A-Omega]

Do not be one of the misbelievers who fails to call Mary "blessed among women, and blessed is the fruit of her womb". Think of it. God visited her. It is sacrilege to think she used her womb for anything other than the presence of God the Son. God is no respecter of persons. He does what He wills to do. He willed Mary to be Ever-Virgin. And He can do whatever He wants, not what fulfills the vain imaginations of the heterodox.

Except for the fact that the Bible says the exact opposite. She was not "ever-vigrin."

No Orthodox Christians worship Mary, the angels, or the Saints. Many "Protestants" disrespect Mary by saying she is not Ever-virgin.

Not so! Here is the Russian Orthodox Church not only displaying the alleged "Belt of the Queen of Heaven" supposedly buried by the disciples, but the attendees are stepping forward to kiss it. Again, we see more idolatry and Satanic heresy.

"“Thousands of pilgrims visit Vatopedi Monastery just to pray before this holy relic, to kiss this fragment of the garments of the Most Holy Theotokos. People pray before the Cincture of the Theotokos for healing from illnesses."

Hmm...praying for healing from a relic? Sounds like false god worship to me.


And here is Vladamir Putin, who was given the belt as a gift by the Greek Orthodox Monks:

Again, this is all just repackaged paganism. And they even call her the Queen of Heaven

17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

I do not venerate, exalt or worship Mary because that has no place in Biblical Christianity. This once again, like the priest worshiping a skull in church is all pagan heresy. Yet, you seem to give it all a pass.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

wow scott. what you just posted is nothing but pride and ego. you can't even prove by scripture this is true. and you judge others by saying it is their pride that causes us not to believe..

wow..

It's not written down in the Early Church! All you can do is appeal to your own tradition? How do you know your interpretation is correct if you ignore 2000 years of Christian history? No Christian 2000 years ago believed Mary was not ever virgin. You demand evidence from the Bible alone. But you ignore what the early Church said the Bible means? Why should a person trust what they themselves read in the Bible ALL BY THEMSELVES? The Bible contains "the faith once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3). Not the Bible in your own hand as "the only saint: the private, Protestant individual". I'm not judging others. I'm telling the truth. The truth is knowable. And I am sure what I've been taught is the Truth (John 16:13). I'm sure there were not hundreds, thousands, and then millions of Christians who believed in the first 1000 years of Church History that Mary had children. You have failed to produce one verse that says, "The children of Mary and Joseph". Since it doesn't say that, it is not true! It doesn't bolster my ego to say Mary is ever-virgin.
I'm standing up for the piety of the Mother of God, who would not have dishonored the Lord by not consecrating herself totally to her Son.
It's human opinion that says St. Joseph needed to have children with Mary to fulfill the will of God in the salvation of souls. And the NT saints all cared about what God wants, not about earthly things that have no consequence. Marriage is honorable in all. That's half of the truth. The other half, is, well, virginity.
In the case of the Ark of the New Covenant, that's What Mary's womb was. If Mary had relations with Joseph, that would make Joseph the father of Jesus Christ.
See how you ignore what Timothy Copple said. He was saying people were saying these are the brothers and sisters of Christ, not that they were the actual brothers and sisters of Christ. Can't you read? It also calls, Scripture does, calls Joseph the father of Jesus. That's what people were saying. But that doesn't make it true. Scripture was recording what people were thinking here, not what God was doing and thinking. God made Mary the Mother of God, not the Mother of God AND Jesus' half brothers and half sisters.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Except for the fact that the Bible says the exact opposite. She was not "ever-vigrin."




Not so! Here is the Russian Orthodox Church not only displaying the alleged "Belt of the Queen of Heaven" supposedly buried by the disciples, but the attendees are stepping forward to kiss it. Again, we see more idolatry and Satanic heresy.

"“Thousands of pilgrims visit Vatopedi Monastery just to pray before this holy relic, to kiss this fragment of the garments of the Most Holy Theotokos. People pray before the Cincture of the Theotokos for healing from illnesses."

Hmm...praying for healing from a relic? Sounds like false god worship to me.


And here is Vladamir Putin, who was given the belt as a gift by the Greek Orthodox Monks:

Again, this is all just repackaged paganism. And they even call her the Queen of Heaven

17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?






I do not venerate, exalt or worship Mary because that has no place in Biblical Christianity. This once again, like the priest worshiping a skull in church is all pagan heresy. Yet, you seem to give it all a pass.

But you do worship and venerate YOUR OWN PRIVATE PERSONAL READING OF THE BIBLE MORE THAN THE ORAL TRADITIONS PASSED DOWN FROM THE APOSTLES (2 THESSALONIANS 2:15). The Ever-Virginity of Mary IS HOLY TRADITION, passed down in words from the 12 Apostles. It was widely believed in the Early Church. Your opinion was rejected by THE CHURCH. Your opinion is A TRADITION OF MEN. You are not the pillar and ground of the truth, the Church. And the Church can't be wrong (1 Tim. 3:15, Matt. 16:18). You can only prove your case if you find a long list of early Christians who wrote The Bible says, "Mary had sex with Joseph". Where is your PROOF from Early Church history?
Name all of the (at least 10) fathers who believed that? There are more than 10 Christians from the first 1000 years of Church history that believe MARY IS EVER-VIRGIN.
Many more than just 10.
There should be at least 12 apostles you can quote who said that. Without oral tradition, you have "Scripture alone", which settles nothing, because with yourself and THE BIBLE ALONE, you RELY ON YOURSELF AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY AS TO WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS/MEANS.
The Orthodox Church has KEPT THE FAITH FOR 2000 YEARS; and She always BELIEVED MARY IS EVER VIRGIN.

 

[See_KING_Truth]

Show me at least one scripture that says without a doubt that Mary remained a virgin the rest of her life please, because I have never read such a thing.

I am not denying her being blessed, or the blessing of the fruit of her womb: our Lord and Savior was born out of that womb. I don't disrespect Mary, but I do not put her up on a pedistal either.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Except for the fact that the Bible says the exact opposite. She was not "ever-vigrin."




Not so! Here is the Russian Orthodox Church not only displaying the alleged "Belt of the Queen of Heaven" supposedly buried by the disciples, but the attendees are stepping forward to kiss it. Again, we see more idolatry and Satanic heresy.

"“Thousands of pilgrims visit Vatopedi Monastery just to pray before this holy relic, to kiss this fragment of the garments of the Most Holy Theotokos. People pray before the Cincture of the Theotokos for healing from illnesses."

Hmm...praying for healing from a relic? Sounds like false god worship to me.


And here is Vladamir Putin, who was given the belt as a gift by the Greek Orthodox Monks:

Again, this is all just repackaged paganism. And they even call her the Queen of Heaven

17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? 18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?






I do not venerate, exalt or worship Mary because that has no place in Biblical Christianity. This once again, like the priest worshiping a skull in church is all pagan heresy. Yet, you seem to give it all a pass.

Since when is calling the Virgin Mary blessed "paganism". You haven't taken Luke's gospel seriously!
You value your own mind more than the mind of Christ's One and Only Church. No one is worshipping anything other than God. Protestants hold up the Bible? Aren't they WORSHIPPING THE BIBLE, THEN? See how they HOLD UP THE BIBLE FROM THEIR PULPITS AS AN OBJECT OF FAITH. SEE HOW THEY LOOK UP AT THE WOODEN CROSS IN THEIR CHURCHES AND ADORE IT!
AREN'T THEY WORSHIPPING THE CROSS? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN VENERATION AND WORSHIP?

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

Show me at least one scripture that says without a doubt that Mary remained a virgin the rest of her life please, because I have never read such a thing.

I am not denying her being blessed, or the blessing of the fruit of her womb: our Lord and Savior was born out of that womb. I don't disrespect Mary, but I do not put her up on a pedistal either.

Where did you read any thing in the writings of the early Christians that said, "Mary had sex with Joseph"? Shouldn't you demand written proof for your belief that this is what the Bible says?
Where is the proof in the first 1000 years of Church history? Tell us! WHERE? WHERE'S THE PROOF?

 

[See_KING_Truth]

I have proof, and it is in scripture.

Matthew 1
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Anybody who regularly reads the bible, and understands it, would be aware that "knew a woman" most oftenly refers to intercourse.

 

[SantoSubito]

Here we go again.

 

[OldOrthodoxChristian]

I have proof, and it is in scripture.

Matthew 1
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Anybody who regularly reads the bible, and understands it, would be aware that "knew a woman" most oftenly refers to intercourse.

Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTO (till) the day of her death. 2 Samuel 6:23.

So, then, Michal the daughter of Saul did have children after the day of her death?

See how Scripture uses the word "till" of things that do not happen, that

do no ever happen. Like Joseph knowing Mary. He never knew her in the flesh.