Does the initial burst of faith require works to NOT be dead?

[VCO]

God is working in us before we even know he is. I think scripture says something about knowing us in the womb, I think God is planning our lives long before we know it. Setting us up to have a faith experience before we know it.He is looking out for our Good. How could we ever find God unless he reveals himself to us?

Jeremiah 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations."

Revelation 13:8 (ESV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] and all who dwell on earth will worship it,
everyone whose name has not been written before
the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb
who was slain.

Joshua 24:15 (NASB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD,
choose for yourselves today whom you will serve:
whether the gods which your fathers served which were
beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose
land you are living; but as for me and my house,
we will serve the LORD."

Matthew 22:14 (NASB)
[SUP]14 [/SUP] "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Ephesians 1:11 (GW)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] God also decided ahead of time to choose us
through Christ according to his plan,
which makes everything work the way he intends.

Luke 10:41-42 (NASB)
[SUP]41 [/SUP] But the Lord answered and said to her, "Martha, Martha,
you are worried and bothered about so many things;
[SUP]42 [/SUP] but only one thing is necessary,
for Mary has chosen the good part,
which shall not be taken away from her."

Acts 1:21 (NLT)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] “So now we must choose a replacement for Judas
from among the men who were with us the entire time
we were traveling with the Lord Jesus—

Romans 6:16-18 (HCSB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] Don’t you know that if you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of that one you obey—either of sin leading to death or of obedience leading to righteousness?
{WE HAVE A CHOICE TO MAKE.}
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thank God that, although you used to be slaves of sin, you obeyed from the heart that pattern of teaching you were transferred to,
[SUP]18 [/SUP] and having been liberated from sin, you became enslaved to righteousness.

NOW is that a contradiction, between GOD CHOSE US, and we choose whom we will serve? NO!

It is not even a dichotomy.

Most Christians have forgotten that GOD's Omnipresence does not stop with ever cubic inch of heaven and the universe. IT ALSO INCLUDES EVERY SECOND OF TIME THAT HE CREATED. He simply CHOSE those whom He sees choosing to receive Jesus as LORD. AND EVEN THAT CHOOSING HIM IS AN EMPOWERMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. So we do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

NO, the tense that John uses frequently is the Greek primary perfect tense; which we DO NOT HAVE IN ENGLISH. We only have 3 primary verb tenses, while Greek has 4. That fourth tense, implies an ONGOING Lifestyle of striving to do that verb.
That desire to obey, is a direct bi-product of GOD's LOVE that was POURED into our hearts, the very moment we were born again. The absence of it, validates that one is not yet born again. HENSE, the presence of it, is a WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT and NOT something we can pat ourselves on the back for:

John 14:15 (HCSB)
[SUP]15 [/SUP] “If you love Me, {That Agape Love is produced by God's Love, which the Holy Spirit poured into our hearts.}
you will keep My commands. {That is the ongoing desire and striving to keep His commands, NOT OUT OF THE POWER OF OUR HUMAN INTELLECT OR WILL, but purely by the power of the holy Spirit and the influence of GOD's LOVE being present in our hearts.}

THEREFORE:

1 John 2:4 (HCSB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” yet doesn't keep His commands, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

That word keep is in that fourth Greek tense that implies that ongoing desire and striving to KEEP via a Holy Spirit empowered lifestyle.

NO, obedience does not produce saving faith; the opposite is absolutely true however. Genuine born again faith, will manifest that the LOVE OF GOD really is in that heart, via that ongoing desire and striving to obey HIM.

Romans 5:5 (HCSB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] This hope will not disappoint ⌊us⌋, because God’s love has been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

IF GOD's LOVE has truly been sown into one's heart, it will produce a harvest of striving to obey HIM.

SALVATION TRULY IS BY GRACE AND NOT BY ANY OF OUR WORKS.

The desire to obey is not a work, nor is it something to pat yourself on the back for. Nobody was talking about it being something to pat yourself on the back for.

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Most Christians have forgotten that GOD's Omnipresence does not stop with ever cubic inch of heaven and the universe.<---Way to presumptuous about "most Christians" IT ALSO INCLUDES EVERY SECOND OF TIME THAT HE CREATED. He simply CHOSE those whom He sees choosing to receive Jesus as LORD. AND EVEN THAT CHOOSING HIM IS AN EMPOWERMENT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. So we do not get to pat ourselves on the back for any of it.<---I've not met a Christian who DID think it was something to pat themselves on the back about.

I don't think you know what most Christians have forgotten and I don't see Christians patting themselves on the back over this stuff. If this was a problem you had and corrected then clearly you did the right thing. But presuming that same thing about "most Christians" isn't a safe presumption. It's projection.

 

[VCO]

I don't think you know what most Christians have forgotten and I don't see Christians patting themselves on the back over this stuff. If this was a problem you had and corrected then clearly you did the right thing. But presuming that same thing about "most Christians" isn't a safe presumption. It's projection.

I have found over the years since I was saved in 1977, that most Christians whom I have talked to, fail to understand that GOD's Omnipresence also includes EVERY SECOND OF TIME AS WE KNOW IT. Also if you have not run SEVERAL who post here on other threads, who want to believe their obedience is earning part of their Salvation, stick around YOU WILL.

 

[Stephen63]

Matthew 21:28-32 (KJV)
[SUP]28 [/SUP]But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. [SUP]29 [/SUP]He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. [SUP]30 [/SUP]And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. [SUP]32 [/SUP]For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, (1) repented not afterward, (2) that ye might believe him.

Wasn't Jesus to be believed in the same way?

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, [SUP]15 [/SUP]And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: (1) repent ye, and (2) believe the gospel.

What exactly is repentance? What are the fruits of repentance? WHAT IS REQUIRED??

I...know...this..... no repentance, no salvation. No proof of repentance, no proof of faith. You can't change a process that has been forever established. Doing so is open rebellion against Christ. Doing what's right in our own eyes is what got Israel in trouble. How can we escape if we do the same thing?

 

[fredoheaven]

The two thread pose two different questions within the same subject.
One thread asks if we're saved with a dead faith.
The other thread asks if faith can be initially alive even though there are not yet any works involved.

Hi sir,

I believe that faith is made alive because of the Word of God. for it is by hearing of the Word comes faith.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word ofGod.

Good day,

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Hi sir,

I believe that faith is made alive because of the Word of God. for it is by hearing of the Word comes faith.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word ofGod.

Good day,

The Bible makes it clear that works are required for a faith that isn't dead. It's Biblical.

 

[Kaycie]

Faith alone never saved anyone, not even for a second. It is not until we obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. The ONLY thing that saves is the blood of Christ, and baptism is how we come in contact with that blood, and partaking of the Lords supper is how we stay in contact with it. Demons believe, but believing alone does not save, not even for a second.

yes, faith without works is dead, useless, uneventful

 

[Tintin]

Faith alone never saved anyone, not even for a second. It is not until we obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. The ONLY thing that saves is the blood of Christ, and baptism is how we come in contact with that blood, and partaking of the Lords supper is how we stay in contact with it. Demons believe, but believing alone does not save, not even for a second.

We are saved by grace through faith alone. Demons believe, but they don't believe on and trust in Jesus. They don't have faith. They just believe He exists and they know where they're going. And they're not too happy about it.

 

[Kaycie]

We are saved by grace through faith alone. Demons believe, but they don't believe on and trust in Jesus. They don't have faith. They just believe He exists and they know where they're going. And they're not too happy about it.

I disagree with this statement, but I won't argue with you.

 

[Tintin]

I disagree with this statement, but I won't argue with you.

I don't want to argue either. But for discussions sake, what do you believe?

 

[Kaycie]

I don't want to argue either. But for discussions sake, what do you believe?

I believe that our obedience does not earn grace, but that God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him. That He does not give it to those who simply believe but do not obey. Jesus says not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord! Will inherit eternal life, but only those who DO the Will of His Father. These people that He told to depart from Him forever clearly believed.

 

[Tintin]

I believe that our obedience does not earn grace, but that God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him. That He does not give it to those who simply believe but do not obey. Jesus says not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord! Will inherit eternal life, but only those who DO the Will of His Father. These people that He told to depart from Him forever clearly believed.

Do you hear what you're saying? Obedience doesn't earn grace, but God gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him? Um. Last I heard, God offers the gift of grace to all people. We can either take hold of that grace or reject it. Being obedient to God is our response to Him for who He is and what He's done for us. There are plenty of Christians who don't believe, but think they believe. Following Jesus is very important, but it's our response to Him. He's the one who made the Covenant with us.

 

[blondieindahouse]

I believe that our obedience does not earn grace, but that God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him. That He does not give it to those who simply believe but do not obey. Jesus says not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord! Will inherit eternal life, but only those who DO the Will of His Father. These people that He told to depart from Him forever clearly believed.

First we repent! We [turn from] because we are broken and contrite. "Sorrow according to the will of God, tending to the glory of God, and wrought by the Spirit of God, renders the heart humble, contrite, submissive, disposed to mortify every sin, and to walk in newness of life. And this repentance is connected with saving faith in Christ, and an interest in his atonement." Matthew Henry Commentary


We then accept Christ as the messiah(roman10:9-10) . God is the author of our faith. Hebrews 12:2 "Jesus controls our faith, steers it as a captain steers a ship, and presides over it and cares for it as a monarch presides over and cares for his people.: Gotquestions.org
He established our salvation before we were born!

It is the Holy Spirit that does the works through us . We have a new nature and our minds are being renewed by his Living Word which is truth and spirit .We have put on the mind of Christ. Corinthians 5:17 -18Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,…

We do the will of the Father because we are truly his and he has done every bit of it !! Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-10

God is the author of our faith and that is the exact reason why faith without works is dead!
Christ said his grace is sufficient. We rest in HIM and allow the potter to mold the clay. We are obedient because we are gradually sanctified into it and we are continually being sanctified . Daily the Father leads us by the hand and takes us from milk to meat. Faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Our will is his will. He has done it all. Otherwise we are as the foolish galatians whose works were as filthy rags. They were working for their salvation. Grace is a free gift through our faith that he wrote!!.

Those who will say Lord Lord were never his in the first place. He never knew them because they were following the false christ.

Blessings

 

[Babylonisfalling]

The fear of the lord is the beginning of wisdom

Faith without works is dead

 

[Babylonisfalling]

We are saved by grace through faith alone. Demons believe, but they don't believe on and trust in Jesus. They don't have faith. They just believe He exists and they know where they're going. And they're not too happy about it.

Are we saved with a dead faith?

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Faith alone never saved anyone, not even for a second. It is not until we obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. The ONLY thing that saves is the blood of Christ, and baptism is how we come in contact with that blood, and partaking of the Lords supper is how we stay in contact with it. Demons believe, but believing alone does not save, not even for a second.

yes, faith without works is dead, useless, uneventful

I hate to bicker with one who seems to be on my page about works, but none of us obey in completeness. If we did we wouldn't need grace. Salvation does not require obedience BUT...abusing God's grace by giving up on TRYING to be obedient.....that's another issue.

This is where some might say that the person was never saved to begin with, and others might say the person lost their salvation.

Are we saved with a dead faith?
Out of all the responses to this question, I'm betting you'll be one of only three who can give a direct, straightforward answer without trying to jump through a bunch of theological hoops.

 

[A_Friend_In_Christ]

Christians have to jump through hoops now?

 

[Babylonisfalling]

Christians have to jump through hoops now?

No but some do it anyway.

 

[mailmandan]

I believe that our obedience does not earn grace, but that God only gives the gift of grace to those who obey Him.

We obey Him by choosing to believe the gospel (Romans 10:16) when we are saved by grace through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Multiple acts of obedience/good works which follow are what believers are saved FOR and NOT by (Ephesians 2:10).

That He does not give it to those who simply believe but do not obey.

What does John 3:16; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5 etc.. all say? Salvation to those who simply BELIEVE. Believe but do not obey is an oxymoron. Genuine believers are fruitful but not all are equally fruitful. Attempted obedience without genuine belief is not obedience.

Jesus says not everyone who says to Him Lord, Lord! Will inherit eternal life, but only those who DO the Will of His Father.

The will of the Father is not salvation by works. John 6:40 - "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

These people that He told to depart from Him forever clearly believed.

These people may have believed "mental assent" in Christ (just as the devils do in James 2:19) but they did not believe/trust in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE THAT YOU ARE NOT GRASPING. These many people in Matthew 7:22 had the wrong foundation. They were trusting in THEIR accomplishments/works to save them and NOT in CHRIST ALONE. Jesus NEVER knew them. Their hearts were not right with God, so their attempted external obedience was really disobedience. This is why Jesus referred to them as WORKERS OF INIQUITY/LAWLESSNESS! They were self righteous.