Calvin's sovereign God ordains all things that come to pass making God the author of sin. He admitted to this. The biblical view of "sovereign" is that God is in complete command of all things and all things will turn out the way he has determined in his word. However, he has chosen to allow man to live and make decisions which will ultimately determine their eternal outcome.
Does the sovereignty of God nullify the grace of God?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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huh ? I’m not sure about what you mean by original sin total depravity ect
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.
For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Romans 5:12, 14-19 KJV
In the same way adam led mankind into sin and death , Jesus leads us into righteousness and life
adam was called the son of God
“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
Luke 3:38 KJV
Death through Adam that led to the old testsment and life through Christ that is the New Testament
I’m not sure what you are meaning when you say “ the doctrine of original sin “ many people have many ideas and label them the same things I do believe what Roman’s says there however I’m ot sure about what your asking in that post
“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,
who is the figure of him that was to come.
For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Romans 5:12, 14-19 KJV
In the same way adam led mankind into sin and death , Jesus leads us into righteousness and life
adam was called the son of God
“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
Luke 3:38 KJV
Death through Adam that led to the old testsment and life through Christ that is the New Testament
I’m not sure what you are meaning when you say “ the doctrine of original sin “ many people have many ideas and label them the same things I do believe what Roman’s says there however I’m ot sure about what your asking in that post
on the other hand only a soveriegn God can do this and give his saving grace to someone only because he is sovereign and speaks forth what shall be
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;……. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:5-8, 13-14, 17-18, 22 KJV
Because he is God he’s able to look upon Noah who didn’t earn anything God was repenting over all flesh yet he gave boah grace and a promise that if he believed what he was saying and acted he would make a new covenant with Noah and his family
that’s grace through faith if God wasn’t sovereign he wouldn’t have the authority to give man grace grace is an attribute of Gods oersonality and heart towards mankind , of course he is soveriegn that’s why when he declares grace it’s real and true
“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make thee an ark of gopher wood;……. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
Genesis 6:5-8, 13-14, 17-18, 22 KJV
Because he is God he’s able to look upon Noah who didn’t earn anything God was repenting over all flesh yet he gave boah grace and a promise that if he believed what he was saying and acted he would make a new covenant with Noah and his family
that’s grace through faith if God wasn’t sovereign he wouldn’t have the authority to give man grace grace is an attribute of Gods oersonality and heart towards mankind , of course he is soveriegn that’s why when he declares grace it’s real and true
That's not exactly what he says. The argument is much more nuanced. You would have to understand first cause, secondary causes, etc. He would never say God is the author of sin. But it was God who both made man and allowed for free will. In this way Calvin would link God to sin. In other words, had God never created man, or created them without the possibility of sin, God would not be said to be the first cause.
I don't understand the question.
What I know about God is he has no limitations
Gods sovereignty mean he is the ultimate source of power, and authority. Over everything that exists.
So I don't understand how his own sovereignty could nullify his grace
His sovereignty also calls for submission.
Who is tulip ?
What I know about God is he has no limitations
Gods sovereignty mean he is the ultimate source of power, and authority. Over everything that exists.
So I don't understand how his own sovereignty could nullify his grace
His sovereignty also calls for submission.
Who is tulip ?
I haven't commented directly on the issue of grace and sovereignty. I was commenting on the validity of 2 points @Nehemiah6 made that I didn't think of necessity had to follow. I don't believe any attribute of God conflicts with any of His other attributes. Sovereignty doesn't negate grace any more than chocolate negates peanut butter. They compliment each other.
Tulip is an acronym that makes remembering the major tenets of reformed theology easier.
T...total depravity
U...unconditional election
L...limited atonement
I...irresistible grace
P...perseverance of the saints
Tulip is an acronym that makes remembering the major tenets of reformed theology easier.
T...total depravity
U...unconditional election
L...limited atonement
I...irresistible grace
P...perseverance of the saints
Yes, I believe God can show His salvation to people without them having to be vocally told about by some one else. 'His invisible attributes are clearly seen by the things He hath made, even His eternal God head so they are without excuse '
So that everyone gets a chance to believe on Jesus for eternal life.
So that everyone gets a chance to believe on Jesus for eternal life.
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I wish aside from the other letters in this.. is the P was Preservation of the Saved.
If the P is meant to be eternal security.. then I don't know why its called 'perseverance'
I have heard that it means a believer will 'endure to the end'
So those elected will be continously faithful.
But aside from the 'he who endureth to the end will be saved verse' NOT being about eternal salvation.. what has perseverance got to do with security?
If the P is meant to be eternal security.. then I don't know why its called 'perseverance'
I have heard that it means a believer will 'endure to the end'
So those elected will be continously faithful.
But aside from the 'he who endureth to the end will be saved verse' NOT being about eternal salvation.. what has perseverance got to do with security?
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God was making sure his prophecy in Genesis 3:15 concerning the seed would continue even though he was going to destroy the earth. Noah was saved to continue that seed line because his generations were perfect, in that, the seed line had not been corrupted by the sons of God. We read of the seed line from Seth to Noah in Genesis 5. God was fulfilling his purpose.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
I have no idea man that’s between you and Jesus.
im just here to discuss what the Bible says with other people who want to discuss what the Bible says
I have nothing against you and I have no say whatsoever whether you see saved or not I’m just another person who’s trusting in the lord so I believe the things he said about salvstion and I don’t let people tell Me otherwise ….because I believe in Jesus trust him with my soul know he’s telling me the truth ect
all I was saying is that we have tried to discuss things alot and we always are the opposite every time lol
This doesn’t mean im accusing you of heresy or think you are lost or anything …..Jesus will decide who’s saved and who isn’t based on his word
This is sort of my position about you or anyone else and think it should also be thier position
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
When it comes to salvstion and everlasting life or someone’s relationship with God it’s not my business or place to examine it and the. Tell them what I think
i just don’t like to waste time is the thing injabe nonill feelings or anything towards you I hope your saved and everything you believe works out for you I just haven’t ever found any agreement and think it’s just wasting our time
im just here to discuss what the Bible says with other people who want to discuss what the Bible says
I have nothing against you and I have no say whatsoever whether you see saved or not I’m just another person who’s trusting in the lord so I believe the things he said about salvstion and I don’t let people tell Me otherwise ….because I believe in Jesus trust him with my soul know he’s telling me the truth ect
all I was saying is that we have tried to discuss things alot and we always are the opposite every time lol
This doesn’t mean im accusing you of heresy or think you are lost or anything …..Jesus will decide who’s saved and who isn’t based on his word
This is sort of my position about you or anyone else and think it should also be thier position
“But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.”
1 Corinthians 4:3-5 KJV
When it comes to salvstion and everlasting life or someone’s relationship with God it’s not my business or place to examine it and the. Tell them what I think
i just don’t like to waste time is the thing injabe nonill feelings or anything towards you I hope your saved and everything you believe works out for you I just haven’t ever found any agreement and think it’s just wasting our time
Yeah what’s the point ?
did god look upon Noah with grace or not ?
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
And is that the reason God told him about the flood ?
“And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
Genesis 6:7-8 KJV
And was noah saved by faith when he believes what god told him and obeyed ?
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
nothing to argue with me about this time
did god look upon Noah with grace or not ?
But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
And is that the reason God told him about the flood ?
“And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.”
Genesis 6:7-8 KJV
And was noah saved by faith when he believes what god told him and obeyed ?
“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
Hebrews 11:7 KJV
nothing to argue with me about this time
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If you can see how awful we can be by our worldly lusts, you should be able to see that in Romans 1 Paul is speaking to those that are called in verse 6. Man's decisions do not determine his eternal outcome. That would be eternal salvation by works, and that will not harmonize with the other scriptures.
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We probably all differ in some way on our definitions and understandings of salvation. I don't have any objection to the way you have phrased it even though I think both mean essentially the same thing. I believe preservation is what produces perseverance.
Language itself changes over time and meanings as well, so our use of words don't always carry the same connotation as those who used the same verbiage in previous times.
Language itself changes over time and meanings as well, so our use of words don't always carry the same connotation as those who used the same verbiage in previous times.