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All the various washings in the Law were symbolic and pointed to the ultimate baptism, baptism in the holy Spirit. OT prophets had spoken of a time when the gift of holy Spirit would be "poured out". John the Baptist and Jesus spoke of the coming baptism in holy Spirit. These terms poured out, filled with, baptized in connects the symbol, which was the water, to the reality, which was the holy Spirit.
Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit and with fire: [fire as in purification]
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit.
Luke 3:16 John answered saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit and with fire
John 7:38,39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Jesus never baptized any one in water. . . .but scripture prophesied that he would baptize in holy Spirit.
Hebrews 9:1,9,10 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. . . .Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
The above are regulations which were an "illustration"; a "figure", or "symbol" for the OT and were designed to apply only "until the time of reformation", i.e. the new order; which is now. The Greek word for washings is baptisms. This reveals the connection between the washing ceremonies of the OT and the water baptism we see in the NT. It also reveals and confirms the symbolic nature of those washing ceremonies.
1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
Matt. 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit and with fire: [fire as in purification]
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit.
Luke 3:16 John answered saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the holy Spirit and with fire
John 7:38,39 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the holy Spirit was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Jesus never baptized any one in water. . . .but scripture prophesied that he would baptize in holy Spirit.
Hebrews 9:1,9,10 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. . . .Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
The above are regulations which were an "illustration"; a "figure", or "symbol" for the OT and were designed to apply only "until the time of reformation", i.e. the new order; which is now. The Greek word for washings is baptisms. This reveals the connection between the washing ceremonies of the OT and the water baptism we see in the NT. It also reveals and confirms the symbolic nature of those washing ceremonies.
1 Cor. 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
There are some that cannot or will not believe. Only God can minister to the heart but even God will not strive with a man forever. God does give men over to the reprobate heart so they cannot hear and respond to the gospel. Very religious but very lost describes many who profess what they do not possess.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
let's have another look at what Peter actually wrote:
" ... baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."
(2 Peter 3:21-22)
i think Peter makes a distinction between the ritual - which washes water of the body - and what it points to: the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
the resurrection of Jesus Christ saves and redeems us, not being dunked in tap water or a pond.
" ... baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.
It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him."
(2 Peter 3:21-22)
i think Peter makes a distinction between the ritual - which washes water of the body - and what it points to: the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
the resurrection of Jesus Christ saves and redeems us, not being dunked in tap water or a pond.
H
Peter is taking about water bap. not the res, of Christ. OF COURSE all of our sal. is based on the res. of Christ. But the res. in and of itself saves not one ; What Jesus paid for must be personal applied to the sinners in his bondage to sin, Romans 6:22-23 God "frees from sin and enslaves us to Himself" to save us, by and to Himself. Love Hoffco
baptism is a pledge in faith, partaking of His death and resurrection - not a ritual bathing.
it is believing, and confessing before men our hope in Him.
it's not the act of washing your hair without soap that saves you, but that faith, and confession of it.
Jesus says "everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven"
to the Jews, stepping into a mikvah or a river to be ritually washed by a teacher was tantamount to public confession of faith & belief in those teachings. today we hold the same custom. by public baptism, we acknowledge Him before men. i hope we don't simply stop there!
just as a man wasn't a Jew simply by being baptized, neither are we His sheep simply because we're baptized with water. a man became a disciple of a rabbi after this ritual by devoting himself to his teaching - and so we also are followers of Jesus accepting Him and following after His commands and ways. water baptism is only a public pledge of this. faith, through His grace, is what saves. this is manifest by the "pledge of a clear conscience toward God"
it is believing, and confessing before men our hope in Him.
it's not the act of washing your hair without soap that saves you, but that faith, and confession of it.
Jesus says "everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven"
to the Jews, stepping into a mikvah or a river to be ritually washed by a teacher was tantamount to public confession of faith & belief in those teachings. today we hold the same custom. by public baptism, we acknowledge Him before men. i hope we don't simply stop there!
just as a man wasn't a Jew simply by being baptized, neither are we His sheep simply because we're baptized with water. a man became a disciple of a rabbi after this ritual by devoting himself to his teaching - and so we also are followers of Jesus accepting Him and following after His commands and ways. water baptism is only a public pledge of this. faith, through His grace, is what saves. this is manifest by the "pledge of a clear conscience toward God"
B
An alcoholic needs to be deliver from the addiction and not presented with a sin issue. They need professional help and to be around the body of Christ and the love and grace of God. For many it has become a terrible weakness in their flesh because they have depended upon it for so long. We can find sin issues in just about any believer's life. Some are outward but most are inward that nobody sees. We need to be given much grace and loved out of these areas of weakness in our flesh. God's conviction must always be present but not in a legalistic fashion. We all know that we have things in our flesh that we have been battling our entire Christian life and God has made His grace sufficient for us. This does not condone sin and God will convict at the right time for He is faithful.
Not trying to be rude here, but can you tell me when and if this has happened? Who do you know that is a victim of death just before baptism or is just just an empty play on emotions? This scenario has been given often, and it does not disprove the necessity of baptism.
Does God not what all of us to be saved? Most definitely, so do you not think that God would provide a way for a person to be baptized instead of some theoretical scenario of someone falling over dead before they hit the water. God is a just God, and he is a fair God, and I firmly believe He gives everyone an equal opportunity to respond to his commands.
Does God not what all of us to be saved? Most definitely, so do you not think that God would provide a way for a person to be baptized instead of some theoretical scenario of someone falling over dead before they hit the water. God is a just God, and he is a fair God, and I firmly believe He gives everyone an equal opportunity to respond to his commands.
[/FONT][/COLOR]What was this water? it was the wrath of God being poured out on sinful mankind.
How was Noah saved? By faith, In faith he built the ark, which rode on the water, so we see a wonderful truth of God. That how by faith, we are saved, through the wrath of God
If noah did not have faith, he would not have built the ark. And would have perished.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
the greek says that like the water of the flood. baptism symbolises that which saves us also. The resurrection of Christ.
It does not remove filth of the flesh. I do nto see how we could read these words and not comprehend that water baptism does not remove sin.
we do not see it the same
Thats my point.
Romans 6 says you were literally baptized into the death and burial of Christ, It is not symbolic it is literal. God does this. That is baptism of the spirit. That is how you are cleansed.
Having new life is great, But if you are not cleansed and made clean, You have no new life to live. Paul says we are washed by the spirit. Not by water baptism.
I wish you could understand what I am saying sis
How was Noah saved? By faith, In faith he built the ark, which rode on the water, so we see a wonderful truth of God. That how by faith, we are saved, through the wrath of God
If noah did not have faith, he would not have built the ark. And would have perished.
[/FONT][/COLOR]
the greek says that like the water of the flood. baptism symbolises that which saves us also. The resurrection of Christ.
It does not remove filth of the flesh. I do nto see how we could read these words and not comprehend that water baptism does not remove sin.
we do not see it the same
Thats my point.
Romans 6 says you were literally baptized into the death and burial of Christ, It is not symbolic it is literal. God does this. That is baptism of the spirit. That is how you are cleansed.
Having new life is great, But if you are not cleansed and made clean, You have no new life to live. Paul says we are washed by the spirit. Not by water baptism.
I wish you could understand what I am saying sis
By faith we are saved through Gods wrath? Um, we are saved by His blood FROM his wrath.
Anyway, what makes you think those who believe in baptism do not believe in the spirit? You act as if someone who is baptized isn't really saved. When one becomes part of Christ the spirit is in them. Dwelling in them.
That is really screwed up. Now you are mocking others. First off, baptism is a command by God whether you believe it saves or not, and calling it "dunking their head in water" is disrespectful not only to many believers but to God.
Second, you are deliberately twisting what many have tried their best to explain. IF you were serious about this subject, and though others like myself are in the wrong then you shouldnt be disrespecting, but teaching with compassion so people are not in error.
Second, you are deliberately twisting what many have tried their best to explain. IF you were serious about this subject, and though others like myself are in the wrong then you shouldnt be disrespecting, but teaching with compassion so people are not in error.
D
1 John 1:7 says that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If you need to be baptized to be saved, you are saying that the blood of Jesus isn't enough to save you. You are saying that Jesus' blood is powerless to save unless accompanied by physical baptism, and that is salvation by works. Here is an article I found at Carm.org on 1 Peter 3:21. You might find it interesting.
[h=1]Baptism and 1 Pet. 3:21[/h]
by Matt Slick
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This is the only verse that says "baptism now saves you." But, is it teaching that we must be baptized in water to be saved? No. But, but to rightly understand it, we need to look at its context.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; [SUP]19[/SUP] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, [SUP]20[/SUP] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. [SUP]21[/SUP]And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you -- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SUP]22[/SUP] who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him." (1 Pet. 3:18-22, NASB)
The above translation in verse 21 from the NASB is a good translation: "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. It is what the NIV translates as "symbolizes," the NASB as "corresponding to that," and the KJV as "like figure." Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "baptism corresponds to what?"
If we look at the context, an interesting possibility arises. What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family--the flood or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith, and he was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Also, Peter consistently refers to the flood waters as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6)--not the salvation of Noah and his family. Rather, it was the Ark that saved--the ark that Noah entered by faith. It may very well be that baptism refers to the Ark--not the waters which may be why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God," which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where he equates baptism with being circumcised of heart. In other words, Peter clarifies that it isn't the water baptism that saves but the appeal to the heart.
But, to be fair, the Greek seems to imply that the baptism is referring to the water--not the ark. Still, we need to consider this and make some observations. If we were to look at the flood waters as the thing that removed evil from the land, we could say that "correspondingly" the waters of baptism removes the sin from our hearts. Though this reading seems a bit more natural, it too has problems.
The water of baptism is not what saves us; the sacrifice of Christ does which we receive by faith. We read numerous verses about justification by faith (Rom. 5:1) salvation by faith (Eph. 2:8), etc., not justification "by faith and baptism" or salvation "by faith and baptism."[SUP]1[/SUP] The fact is that salvation is received by faith. Peter, not wanting to declare that baptism itself is what saves us, quickly adds, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." Water baptism, then, must accompany the work of the Holy Spirit in the person. Peter's explanatory comment shows us that the act of physical baptism is not what saves but the "baptism of appeal to God." This appeal to God is by faith the same as Noah's faith in God led him to build the Ark, enter it, and remain in it. It was the Ark that saved Noah--not the flood waters.
The flood was for Noah a type of baptism even as the passage through the Red Sea was a type of baptism for the Israelites.
But some may say that the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of baptism are simultaneous--that the Holy Spirit works in and through baptism to bring regeneration. But this cannot be the case since the Bible tells us that salvation is by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8). Besides, we have a clear instance in scripture where people are saved before their baptism.
[h=2]Acts 10:44-48[/h] "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. [SUP]45[/SUP] And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. [SUP]46[/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, [SUP]47[/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" [SUP]48[/SUP] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." (Acts 10:44-48).
In these verses we see that Peter had been preaching the gospel, and the Holy Spirit fell upon the listeners. In verse 45 we read that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." This gift manifested itself in speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a sign-gift given to believers--see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, verse 46 says they were "exalting God." Unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved because they are moving in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and glorifying God. It is the Holy Spirit who gives charismatic spiritual gifts to the church (1 Cor. 12:27-28) and not to unbelievers. Now, please notice that it was after this movement of the Holy Spirit that the believers are baptized. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then how is it that the people were speaking in tongues and exalting God before they were baptized?
If you were to say that the Holy Spirit was simply working upon and through those not yet saved, then remember that tongues and praise to God are for the church--not the unbelievers. The church consists of people who are saved--not unsaved. If they were not saved until they were baptized, then they were not in the body of Christ and would not have moved in the charismatic gifts. Therefore, they were regenerate before they were baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.
[h=2]Conclusion[/h] 1 Pet. 3:21 is not teaching us that baptism is what saves us. Rather, it is showing us that the water symbolizes a spiritual cleansing through the power of the Holy Spirit gained through Christ's victory over death. It is the person's appeal to God that saves the soul--not the washing of water upon the body.
_______________
[h=1]Baptism and 1 Pet. 3:21[/h]
by Matt Slick
1 Pet. 3:21 says, "And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." This is the only verse that says "baptism now saves you." But, is it teaching that we must be baptized in water to be saved? No. But, but to rightly understand it, we need to look at its context.
"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; [SUP]19[/SUP] in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, [SUP]20[/SUP] who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. [SUP]21[/SUP]And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you -- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience -- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, [SUP]22[/SUP] who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him." (1 Pet. 3:18-22, NASB)
The above translation in verse 21 from the NASB is a good translation: "and corresponding to that, baptism now saves you." The key word in this section is the Greek antitupon. It means "copy," "type," "corresponding to," "a thing resembling another," "its counterpart," etc. It is what the NIV translates as "symbolizes," the NASB as "corresponding to that," and the KJV as "like figure." Baptism, then, is a representation, a copy, a type of something else. The question is "Of what is it a type?" or "baptism corresponds to what?"
If we look at the context, an interesting possibility arises. What does baptism correspond to? Is it the flood? Or, is it the ark? What was it that saved Noah and his family--the flood or the ark? Obviously, it was the Ark. Noah built and entered the ark by faith, and he was saved (Heb. 11:7). The flood waters destroyed the ungodly. Also, Peter consistently refers to the flood waters as the means of destruction of the ungodly (2 Pet. 2:5; 3:6)--not the salvation of Noah and his family. Rather, it was the Ark that saved--the ark that Noah entered by faith. It may very well be that baptism refers to the Ark--not the waters which may be why the rest of the verse says, "not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God," which is consistent with what Paul said in Col. 2:11-12 where he equates baptism with being circumcised of heart. In other words, Peter clarifies that it isn't the water baptism that saves but the appeal to the heart.
But, to be fair, the Greek seems to imply that the baptism is referring to the water--not the ark. Still, we need to consider this and make some observations. If we were to look at the flood waters as the thing that removed evil from the land, we could say that "correspondingly" the waters of baptism removes the sin from our hearts. Though this reading seems a bit more natural, it too has problems.
The water of baptism is not what saves us; the sacrifice of Christ does which we receive by faith. We read numerous verses about justification by faith (Rom. 5:1) salvation by faith (Eph. 2:8), etc., not justification "by faith and baptism" or salvation "by faith and baptism."[SUP]1[/SUP] The fact is that salvation is received by faith. Peter, not wanting to declare that baptism itself is what saves us, quickly adds, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience." Water baptism, then, must accompany the work of the Holy Spirit in the person. Peter's explanatory comment shows us that the act of physical baptism is not what saves but the "baptism of appeal to God." This appeal to God is by faith the same as Noah's faith in God led him to build the Ark, enter it, and remain in it. It was the Ark that saved Noah--not the flood waters.
The flood was for Noah a type of baptism even as the passage through the Red Sea was a type of baptism for the Israelites.
"I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, [SUP]2 [/SUP]and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and all ate the same supernatural food [SUP]4 [/SUP]and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ." (1 Cor. 10:1-4).
The "baptisms" of both Noah and the Israelites served as types of a transition; that is, they moved people from the old world to the new--from the old covenant to the new covenant. It is not the water that saves but the spiritual thing associated with that water that saves. For Noah it was faith in God. For Moses it too was faith in God.But some may say that the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of baptism are simultaneous--that the Holy Spirit works in and through baptism to bring regeneration. But this cannot be the case since the Bible tells us that salvation is by faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8). Besides, we have a clear instance in scripture where people are saved before their baptism.
[h=2]Acts 10:44-48[/h] "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. [SUP]45[/SUP] And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also. [SUP]46[/SUP] For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, [SUP]47[/SUP] "Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" [SUP]48[/SUP] And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days." (Acts 10:44-48).
In these verses we see that Peter had been preaching the gospel, and the Holy Spirit fell upon the listeners. In verse 45 we read that "the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles also." This gift manifested itself in speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a sign-gift given to believers--see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, verse 46 says they were "exalting God." Unbelievers don't praise God. They can't because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved because they are moving in the Holy Spirit, speaking in tongues, and glorifying God. It is the Holy Spirit who gives charismatic spiritual gifts to the church (1 Cor. 12:27-28) and not to unbelievers. Now, please notice that it was after this movement of the Holy Spirit that the believers are baptized. If baptism is necessary for salvation, then how is it that the people were speaking in tongues and exalting God before they were baptized?
If you were to say that the Holy Spirit was simply working upon and through those not yet saved, then remember that tongues and praise to God are for the church--not the unbelievers. The church consists of people who are saved--not unsaved. If they were not saved until they were baptized, then they were not in the body of Christ and would not have moved in the charismatic gifts. Therefore, they were regenerate before they were baptized. This simply isn't an exception. It is a reality.
[h=2]Conclusion[/h] 1 Pet. 3:21 is not teaching us that baptism is what saves us. Rather, it is showing us that the water symbolizes a spiritual cleansing through the power of the Holy Spirit gained through Christ's victory over death. It is the person's appeal to God that saves the soul--not the washing of water upon the body.
_______________
- Mark 16:16 says, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Please see the article on Baptism and Mark 16:16 for an examination of this verse.
Nope. Considering baptism is the death, burial, and resurrection with Christ and we are born as a new creature it isn't denying Jesus' blood at all. It is pretty well confirming you believe his bloodshed was our salvation.
IF JEsus' blood is our salvation(and I agree) then what is the point in accepting Christ? What is the point in preaching the gospel? What is the point in the bible at all? The man died for us, so then we are all saved. Even those who don't believe in him. Right? Do we even need faith? Or do we have to obey his commands?
Are you saying all you have to do is believe in Him and be saved?
IF JEsus' blood is our salvation(and I agree) then what is the point in accepting Christ? What is the point in preaching the gospel? What is the point in the bible at all? The man died for us, so then we are all saved. Even those who don't believe in him. Right? Do we even need faith? Or do we have to obey his commands?
Are you saying all you have to do is believe in Him and be saved?