Does water baptism save us

[posthuman]

In Acts 10 the baptism with the HG had nothing to do with thier personal salvation, they were lost until they obeyed Peter's command to be water baptized, the same baptism that remits sins of Acts 2;38. They were not saved until they "worked righteousness" vese 35, and they worked righteousnes by obeying God's righteous command to be water baptized, THEN they were accepted with God.

so the Holy Spirit is poured out on the lost?

wow someone should phone up the Pentecostal brethren. they are in serious error !

 

[dcontroversal]

In Jn 3:5 and Cor 12:13 list the same 2 elements regardless of order. Those two elements are "spirit" and "water".


We have seen in this thread the role "water" has in this new birth, that being water baptism.

The role of "spirit" in the new birth is the Holy Spirit, by means of His word begets men....." Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" james 1:18. Peter said "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." So men are "begat though the gospel" 1 Cor 4:15. So the Holy Spirit uses His word to teach men, the Holy Spirit's gospel word acts upon the hearts of men bringing about a belief in men'shearts teaching men they are lost, need to become a Christian through water baptism, the new birth.

Dude...your philosophy is flawed as you quote scripture which tells us how we are born again and then add your lemon twist of works and baptism....

You teach contrary to what the bible teaches which I guess should be expected as a man that is LOST and who has believed a gospel of a DIFFERENT KIND cannot understand the word of God........Your lack of understanding states a lot man....I suggest you trust Jesus and his faith before it is too late and works and water for salvation leads straight to hell/lake of fire as it has no power to save and is double cursed by Paul...

SO how many times have you lost your salvation seeing how you believe your works and baptism save you and keep you saved...or I should say...you believe they are PART of your salvation......!

 

[SeaBass]

have you noticed that John 3:5 and John 4:10 are totally separate conversations with totally separate people? or that i hadn't mentioned John 3:5 at all until now?
it comes across to me that you don't read books and epistles, you only read single sentences and sometimes only parts of sentences.

The issue is I wsa saying water in Jn 3:5 means literal water. Evidently you disagreed and tried to use Jn 4:10 to make water in Jn 3:5 mean something other than literal water.

dcontroversal comes along as says water of jn 3:5 is the physical birth.


So all that happened here is you two contradicted each other, I caught it, so you accuse me of lying. It is not uncommon for false teachers to contradict each other.

 

[faroukfarouk]

One of the criminals who were hanged there was hurling abuse at Him, saying, "Are You not the Christ? Save Yourself and us!" 40 But the other answered, and rebuking him said, "Do you not even fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 "And we indeed are suffering justly, for we are receiving what we deserve for our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43 And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43



Seems to me this fellow here did not receive a baptism of water.

Sorry if this point has already been made.

Well, exactly.

 

[Sirk]

HAHAHHA do you have your special golden plates from an angel called MORON-I and did your long lost relative get to cross the magically frozen Mississippi river back when they got run out of the previous state that they were in?

Yup and also.....I can't find those stinkin plates man. I think when joe got teletransported to the moon he buried them there. Interestingly enough....did you know that that's what the whole moon mission was about?......looking fir those plates.

 

[SeaBass]

Flipper,

First of all you are correct as there is no evidence either way concerning baptism and therefore your use of it to try and prove that he had baptism before his death is moot as well..

Jabberjaw nor myself are trying to use the thief to prove the necessity of baptism, so there is no onus on us to prove anything. Yet those that try and use the thief to prove water baptism is not necessary, then the onus is on them to prove he was never bpatized.

 

[posthuman]

The issue is I wsa saying water in Jn 3:5 means literal water. Evidently you disagreed and tried to use Jn 4:10 to make water in Jn 3:5 mean something other than literal water.

evidently it doesn't matter what i say; you're going to be a false witness about it. ugh.

i forgive you.

 

[posthuman]

Jabberjaw nor myself are trying to use the thief to prove the necessity of baptism, so there is no onus on us to prove anything. Yet those that try and use the thief to prove water baptism is not necessary, then the onus is on them to prove he was never bpatized.

is it now the testimony of men that saves?

 

[Jabberjaw]

is it now the testimony of men that saves?

No, that is why we have been refuting your testimony of men, because your testimony is not of the bible.

 

[oldernotwiser]

when the scriptures were written, they were not in chapters and verses

 

[SeaBass]

so the Holy Spirit is poured out on the lost?

wow someone should phone up the Pentecostal brethren. they are in serious error !

Yes. 1 Sam 19 the spirit came upon lost men where they prophesied.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Peter said 8 souls saved by water the antitype to that is us saved by water. The word antitype ("like figure" verse 21 in the KJV) means a mirror reflection. You are the type, your reflection in a mirror is the antitype. The metal die is the type the imprint the die makes is the antitype.

You asked "Well, how were those 8 souls - 8 people saved?"

Peter answers "saved by water". Many want to change the word "water" to "ark" in verse 20 for the obvious reason.


YOu try and change water to "living water". Peter in both verses 20 and 21 is talking about literal water, h2o.

Again, the OT type is saved by water, literal water flooded the earth, not "living water" nor was the earth flooded with "spirit". So the antitype to water of verse 20 cannot be "living water" or spirit but must be literal water to make the type-to-antitype connection.

The like figure [antitypos] whereunto baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,) but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This verse does say that baptism saves us - BUT NOT THE BAPTISM THAT REMOVES THE DIRT FROM THE BODY; which would be water. What was promised to all that believe when Jesus Christ was glorified (ascended)? 'out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit'. . . the spirit throughout the word of God is spoken of in terms used for water - be filled, overflowing, poured out, etc.

The OT type was literal water the NT antitype is 'living water' i.e. holy Spirit.

antitypos - a thing formed after some pattern, a thing resembling another, its counterpart.

Heb 11:8,17 Abraham was in his flesh when he pleased God by obeying God in leaving his land, house and kindred and offereing Isaac?

Baptism in 'living water' i.e. holy Spirit was not available to Abraham. It was not available until Christ ascended. (John 7:39) Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

You ask "Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ - water or Spirit?"

In Acts 2:38 Peter is carrying out Christ's great commission which was disciples (humans) administering water baptism. This human adminstered water baptism made one a disciple, it saves, it is commanded, it is to be taught, and last till the end of the world.

Is it correct to add the word 'water' here? Water does not and cannot save anyone. It is clear from the record in Acts 10:47; 11:17 that Peter understood that these new believers had received the holy spirit and thus were saved before he ever baptized them in water. Why did the Church continue to baptize people in water? Yes, because of the command to his disciples to baptize. We know Jesus meant water because only Jesus baptizes with holy Spirit - all that any disciple of Christ can do is baptize in water.

Luke's account of the great commission, Lk 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

"beginning at Jerusalem" - Peter was in Jerusalem (Acts 2)when he preached the first recorded gospel sermon.

Peter preached "repentance and remission of sins" in v38 when He commanded his hearers to repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.

"in His name" Peter told them to be baptized in the name for the Lord. The exact same water baptism of Acts 10:48 that was "in the name of the Lord"

It all fits together perfectly.

Actually - nope. It makes two baptisms.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the holy Spirit . . . . Did the apostles hear Jesus say that John baptized with water, now they were going to be baptized in holy Spirit? Now in saying that, Jesus did not clearly undo some 14 centuries of baptism in water, nor did it undo the command he gave them during that same forty day period between his resurrection and ascension. Water baptism is a ceremony of cleansing from sin and in some cases 'initiation' or 'joining' becoming a member in the body of Christ or a member of a certain church. My point is somewhere along the line something changed in the early church for Eph. 4:5 to say there is ONE baptism. If water baptism saved then why in the OT did the people have to continually get washed/cleansed?
How can dunking in water create within someone the new man, that new creation in Christ?

 

[gleener]

seems to me it's not up to us to decide who is saved and who is lost, and perhaps God gave us the scripture as it is so that we wouldn't put our faith in a ritual, but in His Son.

in Acts 10:44-48, many received the Holy Ghost before they were baptized with water -- is the Holy Spirit poured out on the lost?

Great point I don't think God would say nope cant come into heaven even tho you received the holy spirit you haven't been baptised

 

[SeaBass]

SO how many times have you lost your salvation seeing how you believe your works and baptism save you and keep you saved...or I should say...you believe they are PART of your salvation......!

Where have I said I am saved by my works?

You have no valid argument against me, only strawmen.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The like figure [antitypos] whereunto baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,) but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ. This verse does say that baptism saves us - BUT NOT THE BAPTISM THAT REMOVES THE DIRT FROM THE BODY; which would be water. What was promised to all that believe when Jesus Christ was glorified (ascended)? 'out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit'. . . the spirit throughout the word of God is spoken of in terms used for water - be filled, overflowing, poured out, etc.

The OT type was literal water the NT antitype is 'living water' i.e. holy Spirit.

antitypos - a thing formed after some pattern, a thing resembling another, its counterpart.

Baptism in 'living water' i.e. holy Spirit was not available to Abraham. It was not available until Christ ascended. (John 7:39) Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.

Is it correct to add the word 'water' here? Water does not and cannot save anyone. It is clear from the record in Acts 10:47; 11:17 that Peter understood that these new believers had received the holy spirit and thus were saved before he ever baptized them in water. Why did the Church continue to baptize people in water? Yes, because of the command to his disciples to baptize. We know Jesus meant water because only Jesus baptizes with holy Spirit - all that any disciple of Christ can do is baptize in water.

Actually - nope. It makes two baptisms.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the holy Spirit . . . . Did the apostles hear Jesus say that John baptized with water, now they were going to be baptized in holy Spirit? Now in saying that, Jesus did not clearly undo some 14 centuries of baptism in water, nor did it undo the command he gave them during that same forty day period between his resurrection and ascension. Water baptism is a ceremony of cleansing from sin and in some cases 'initiation' or 'joining' becoming a member in the body of Christ or a member of a certain church. My point is somewhere along the line something changed in the early church for Eph. 4:5 to say there is ONE baptism. If water baptism saved then why in the OT did the people have to continually get washed/cleansed?
How can dunking in water create within someone the new man, that new creation in Christ?

Hebrews 9.14 is also relevant.

Blessings.

 

[SeaBass]

evidently it doesn't matter what i say; you're going to be a false witness about it. ugh.

i forgive you.

I am not sorry for catching you two contradict each other, so there is nothing for you to forgive me for.

 

[dcontroversal]

The issue is I wsa saying water in Jn 3:5 means literal water. Evidently you disagreed and tried to use Jn 4:10 to make water in Jn 3:5 mean something other than literal water.

dcontroversal comes along as says water of jn 3:5 is the physical birth.


So all that happened here is you two contradicted each other, I caught it, so you accuse me of lying. It is not uncommon for false teachers to contradict each other.

Kind of like you and flipper....

Flipper teaches man initiates faith and saves himself.....
You teach God saves but you must do works to complete it and or keep it...

You both are wrong and seem to contradict each other on a regular basis....

 

[SeaBass]

is it now the testimony of men that saves?

Never said that, more strawmen.

 

[oldernotwiser]

i wasn't to the moon .... it was to ziplok4. (thats my planet) and after a hundred years all of these wives have become a major proctological irritant. i'm considering becoming a buddhist and trying again

 

[posthuman]

Yes. 1 Sam 19 the spirit came upon lost men where they prophesied.

are you the judge of Saul's standing before God?
David, the one that Saul persecuted, would not harm him though he was given into his hand, calling him "the Lord's anointed" -- is SeaBass greater than David?