don't be overrighteous

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dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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how can i say the wisdom he got from God was ungodly?
Exactly.....he cannot be speaking to the wisdom of God and or the proper application of the word of GOD, but rather that wisdom that comes from worldly experience....what the whole book is about...I have jet lag and had to rephrase the last post....sorry HA
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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Rephrased due to jet lag......

Ummmm, there is a worldly wisdom acquired by experience and that is what he set his heart to find........wisdom is the proper application of knowledge and that is what he asked God for....WISDOM to rule as seen in the judgment to divide the child....SOLOMON setting out to find out about ALL of the works of MAN UNDER THE SUN does not equate to the proper application of the knowledge of God "Biblical wisdom", but rather an understanding and application of the worldly wisdom that comes by application and a worldly knowledge......NO way he can conclude that BIBLICAL WISDOM or GODLY wisdom leads to one's demise and or say that it is vanity and vexation of spirit.....
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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Rephrased due to jet lag......

Ummmm, there is a worldly wisdom acquired by experience and that is what he set his heart to find........wisdom is the proper application of knowledge and that is what he asked God for....WISDOM to rule as seen in the judgment to divide the child....SOLOMON setting out to find out about ALL of the works of MAN UNDER THE SUN does not equate to the proper application of the knowledge of God "Biblical wisdom", but rather an understanding and application of the worldly wisdom that comes by application and a worldly knowledge......NO way he can conclude that BIBLICAL WISDOM or GODLY wisdom leads to one's demise and or say that it is vanity and vexation of spirit.....
I agree and Solomon's final conclusion was:

Ecclesiastes 12:13 King James Version (KJV)
13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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O way he can conclude that BIBLICAL WISDOM or GODLY wisdom leads to one's demise and or say that it is vanity and vexation of spirit.....

dude, he doesn't say wisdom leads to death - he says it guards against it. but wisdom, even Godly wisdom, doesn't save you, and that's why it's vain too ((which vexes the spirit of the wise)), and ultimately meaningless

it's because it's not by works

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(Ecclesiastes 12:13)
God is the only One who can give meaning - to redeem us from all this vanity :)
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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dude, he doesn't say wisdom leads to death - he says it guards against it. but wisdom, even Godly wisdom, doesn't save you, and that's why it's vain too ((which vexes the spirit of the wise)), and ultimately meaningless

it's because it's not by works

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter:
Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
(Ecclesiastes 12:13)
God is the only One who can give meaning - to redeem us from all this vanity :)
I think both biblical and worldly wisdom are woven through Ecclesiastes and many conflate the two.......and where did I say it leads to death? I engaged you in a simple dialogue and you come back your feathers ruffled and employing the word dude.....

So....what is the book about...chapter 1:3 is what the book is about......and the route that led the writer of the book to his conclusion in chapter 12:13-14

That is how the book is to be viewed BROTHER........
 
Dec 9, 2011
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Seed Time Harvest! To clarify my intent: Common = occurring often, commonly = usually. Probably not worth a post to clarify, but I was not implying lack of intelligence to any one. The post I reacted to had no context or point, which happens all over most forums of any sort. Be alive in the Power of our Righteous Saviour.
lol,good thing you clarified that because I had misinterpreted that word commonly pretty bad.lol:)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Ummmm, there is a worldly wisdom acquired by experience and that is what he set his heart to find........'
as i read it, he set out to apply his Godly wisdom to understand wisdom itself, and i figure that lesson plan includes understanding what wisdom is actually wisdom and what wisdom isn't really wisdom. *shrug*

....SOLOMON setting out to find out about ALL of the works of MAN UNDER THE SUN does not equate to the proper application of the knowledge of God "Biblical wisdom", but rather an understanding and application of the worldly wisdom that comes by application and a worldly knowledge......
i think i agree with this sentence if i replace {MAN UNDER THE SUN} with {MAN WITHOUT GOD}
but i don't think he means "
godless" when he says "under the sun" i think he means, everything that happens on earth, in our physical lives, this whole corporeal existence. and i think, key to understanding this book in that light, is understanding what makes everything meaningless: everyone dies anyway. nothing we do or know or understand or have saves - it's not by works nor by possessions or will or cleverness or knowledge, it's by the grace of God, so look to Him; nothing else matters because nothing in the universe saves but He does :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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So....what is the book about...chapter 1:3 is what the book is about......and the route that led the writer of the book to his conclusion in chapter 12:13-14

That is how the book is to be viewed BROTHER........
amen, i mean, there's a lot we're leaving out in between haha but yes. but i don't think i have to understand it as though he's only talking about worldly wisdom, is all - it's the same conclusion, it's not wisdom that saves, it's God who gives it
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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I think both biblical and worldly wisdom are woven through Ecclesiastes and many conflate the two.......and where did I say it leads to death? I engaged you in a simple dialogue and you come back your feathers ruffled and employing the word dude.....
probably it's jet lag at the bottom of post #162 you said 'lead to demise' -- hope you have rest, and srry again about calling you dude, esé -- i didn't mean jack by it :giggle:
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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GOT THAT RIGHT, meme
There are two ways the Lord looks at us for righteousness. What we are to do is spelled out by Moses. Christ told us that when we believe in Moses we believe in Him, for Christ is the end of the law, the goal of the law. We are to obey this law, it is our powerful and wonderful teacher. It leads to righteousness, we obey through Christ. But it does not save us. The wonders obedience to this law are so many, so wonderful, but salvation for us in not included. God told us to obey this law and God is true, honest, glorious, God is everything to us. God is so reliable that God never changes and what God said at the beginning of time and what God says today is the same. We can completely depend on God.

The other way is through what Christ did for us, and we are also to be righteous in this way. It is told to us this way: we are to die with Christ and accept the price Christ paid for our sins. Then we are to rise with Him, cleansed. We live and obey through the spirit of the Lord. We obey through love. We can obey legally such as thinking what a terrible person someone is but obey God by not gossiping about Him, or we can obey in the spirit of God, looking at the person as God does.

When we obey through the spirit of the Lord we are called great in the kingdom of heaven. When we obey on our own terms but we have faith in Christ we are saved, but we are not great in the kingdom of heaven.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Something else, there are something called mirror neurons you can look up. It is a learning tool hardwired into our brains. It basically is the cause of empathy. We “feel” what others feel who are close to us, and subordinate to us. It’s why we wince when we see others get hit in sensitive areas, and cry when others cry. Those who see themselves as superior wont have this reaction to those considered inferior. This also explains all of the atrocities performed on peoples throughout history, and feel perfectly justified in doing so. Empathy can only exist in an equality situation.
Don't forget about the seared conscience.

I was thinking recently about how wrong psychologists are in their view of psychopathy. They see psychopaths as having no conscience, and therefore no empathy. But it doesn't line up biblically because all have a conscience, but for some it's been seared... like sheep that are marked with a hot iron and as a result are scarred there and no longer sensitive.

Very sad.

I forget where, but the scriptures reference some of the false teachers in the last days who will have seared consciences.

The Antichrist will be a psychopath.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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Be not righteous over much;
neither make thyself over wise:
why shouldest thou destroy thyself?
(Ecclesiastes 7:16) what does this mean?
p...,​
Well...it certainly does not mean as you infer.​
The Bible tells us (my words) to strive for perfection..which we haven't achieved...yet. So I don't think we must worry about being overly righteous.​
Example;​
"In His Sermon on the Mount, Jesus uttered these words: “You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48). This comes at the end of the section of the sermon where Jesus corrects His listeners’ misunderstanding of the Law. In Matthew 5:20, Jesus says that, if His hearers want to enter into the kingdom of heaven, their righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees, who were the experts in the Law.

Then, in Matthew 5:21–48, He proceeds to radically redefine the law from mere outward conformity, which characterized the “righteousness” of the Pharisees, to an obedience of both outward and inward conformity. He says, “You have heard it said, but I say unto you” to differentiate between the way people heard the law taught from how Jesus is reinterpreting it. Obeying the law is more than simply abstaining from killing, committing adultery, and breaking oaths. It’s also not getting angry with your brother, not lusting in your heart, and not making insincere oaths. At the end of all this, we learn that we must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, and that comes from being perfect.

At this point, the natural response is “But I can’t be perfect,” which is absolutely true. In another place in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus summarizes the Law of God with two commandments: Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself (Matthew 22:37–40). This is certainly an admirable goal, but has anyone ever loved the Lord with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength and his neighbor as himself? Everything we do, say, and think has to be done, said, and thought from love for God and love for neighbor. If we are completely honest with ourselves, we have to admit that we have never achieved this level of spirituality.

The truth of the matter is that, on our own and by our own efforts, we can’t possibly be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. We don’t love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. We don’t love our neighbors as ourselves. We have a problem, and it’s called sin. We are born with it, and we cannot overcome the effects of it on our own. Sin radically affects us to our core. Sin affects what we do, say, and think. In other words, it taints everything about us. Therefore, no matter how good we try to be, we will never meet God’s standard of perfection. The Bible says that all of our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment” (Isaiah 64:6). Our own righteousness is simply not good enough and never will be, no matter how hard we try".
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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p...,​
Well...it certainly does not mean as you infer.​
i don't consider myself to have fully comprehended this, hence the thread :)
((been trying to avoid the 'let me tell you how it is' threads and stick to the more interesting, hard questions))

The Bible tells us (my words) to strive for perfection..which we haven't achieved...yet. So I don't think we must worry about being overly righteous.

. . .​
The truth of the matter is that, on our own and by our own efforts, we can’t possibly be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. We don’t love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. We don’t love our neighbors as ourselves. We have a problem, and it’s called sin. We are born with it, and we cannot overcome the effects of it on our own. Sin radically affects us to our core. Sin affects what we do, say, and think. In other words, it taints everything about us. Therefore, no matter how good we try to be, we will never meet God’s standard of perfection. The Bible says that all of our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment” (Isaiah 64:6). Our own righteousness is simply not good enough and never will be, no matter how hard we try".
that is one understanding i've been entertaining, because what you're saying is true. but i think, if i say, "there is no such thing as over-righteous and over-wise" then i am i not accusing the wisest human who ever lived of not knowing what he is talking about? wouldn't i be saying, the scripture is mistaken? and that gives me pause.
as i was telling Dcon, if i interpret Solomon to be talking only about worldly wisdom, then it seems to me i may be saying his wisdom isn't from God - doesn't Solomon know the difference? when he speaks of wisdom, he doesn't differentiate. i believe he only speaks of true wisdom, believing that true wisdom is what he received from God.
in either case, i'm afraid of presuming myself more wise than him. maybe i'm too timid, or maybe many commentators have feared presumption less. i don't know which it is.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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There is a huge difference between thinking of yourself as righteous and working to obey the Lord because you know the Lord created you, is the master of our universe, and you love Him.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
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Solomon specifically asked God for 'wisdom' -

1KINGS 4:29.
And God gave Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much, and largeness of heart,
even as the sand that is on the sea shore.

1KINGS 5:12.
And The LORD gave Solomon wisdom, as He promised him: and there was peace between Hiram and Solomon;
and they two made a league together.

'can a man have 'wisdom' and still be a 'fool'???
the answer is a resounding 'YES', because he forsook' 'wisdom' and let his foreign wives
seduce him and to serve 'pagan gods!!!

the whole 'lesson' is, 'it is not wisdom, is not righteousness, it is 'Christ's Love' that
dwells within us:

as it is written:
Charity shall cover the multitude of 'sins'....
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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i believe he only speaks of true wisdom, believing that true wisdom is what he received from God.
in either case, i'm afraid of presuming myself more wise than him. maybe i'm too timid, or maybe many commentators have feared presumption less. i don't know which it is.
I believe you are right here post. Even Godly wisdom can puff one up to the place one looks down on others. Solomon knew what to do to serve the Lord. The Lord was not kind to him for giving him peace and wealth. He sure became a spoiled king. I don't speculate on anyone's salvation because God is not done yet. We don't know if Solomon was given a chance to serve the Lord. It seems he was, but let us quit speculating.

Luke 12:48
"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."