Doubters of eternal security

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B

Baptistrw

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#21
Ok then, please explain how a person who God does not forgive their sins due to unforgiveness, can get to heaven?



Not really, it takes Jesus's words as clearly written, and in doing so, disproves OSAS.
You are saying forgiving others sins so God will forgive you is a work? Perhaps then we don't need to take note of Jesus's teachings about unforgiveness?






How many verses are there to read? not many. The simple concept is, if you forgive others, God will forgive you. If you don't, God won't forgive you. I don't see any sub-clauses in those verses that this does not apply to Christians because of OSAS.
What you are implying is absurd. Everytime a person didn't immediately forgive someone they'd lose their salvation. That's so stupid. That's almost as bad works theology as Catholicism. I think you misunderstand teachings on salvation with teachings on sanctification and vice versa. Actually, it's obvious.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#22
Instead of going on about how it is absurd...

could you please try to explain these verses in the context of OSAS doctrine?

If we match up these verses with OSAS doctrine, it sounds something like this:

"A person is always saved and cannot lose their salvation ever, even if they don't forgive others their trespasses and God does not forgive them of their sins."



You then could try and explain how a person who God doesn't forgive their sins, gets to heaven?

Or maybe it sounds like this:

"A person is always saved and cannot lose their salvation ever, and if they don't forgive others it shows they were not a true believer anyway."

Or perhaps, you could argue that a Christian cannot hold unforgiveness in their heart?


Or you could appeal to a doctrine of purgatory, where the unforgiving Christian is purged of their sins in purgatory, but still make it to heaven. But given you aren't Catholic I can't see that happening lol.



I would think either of these positions to be illogical.
Of course God can't let anyone into heaven who doesn't have their sins forgiven.
And the notion that Christians can never hold unforgiveness in their heart , or that if they do, they aren't true believers, is absurd.



Anyway here are the verses:

In the Lord's prayer:

Mat 6:12 and forgive us our debts as we also forgive our debtors.


Mat 6:14 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you;

Mat 6:15 but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


Mar 11:25 And when you stand praying, if you have anything against anyone, forgive it so that also your Father in Heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
Mar 11:26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in Heaven forgive your trespasses.




Everytime a person didn't immediately forgive someone they'd lose their salvation.
Not quite. It means God won't forgive that person of their sins unless they deal with their own unforgiveness. How can God show mercy, to someone who doesn't show mercy to others?

Jesus told a parable about this very problem in the parable of the unforgiving servant: Matt 18:23-35

Mat 18:23 Therefore the kingdom of Heaven has been compared to a certain king who desired to make an accounting with his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to count, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But as he had nothing to pay, his lord commanded that he, and his wife and children, and all that he had, be sold, and payment be made.
Mat 18:26 Then the servant fell down and worshiped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me and I will pay you all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. And he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me what you owe.
Mat 18:29 And his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, Have patience with me and I will pay you all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not, but went and cast him into prison until he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellow servants saw what was done, they were very sorry. And they came and told their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after he had called him, said to him, O wicked servant, I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
Mat 18:33 Should you not also have pitied your fellow servant, even as I had pity on you?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was angry, and delivered him to the tormentors until he should pay all that was due to him.

Mat 18:35 So likewise shall My heavenly Father do also to you, unless each one of you from your hearts forgive his brother their trespasses.




And there are even more verses to show those who don't show mercy, will not receive mercy..

Jas 2:13 For he who has shown no mercy shall have judgment without mercy, and mercy exults over judgment.

Pro 21:13 Whoever stops his ears at the cry of the poor, he also shall cry himself, but shall not be heard.


Mat 5:7 Blessed are the merciful! For they shall obtain mercy.

 
Jan 31, 2009
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#23
Thaddaeus the fact remains you haven't given any verse which says those who don't believe in one interpretation of justification that Roaring and yourself ascribes to are going to hell.


quote]\

I never said you was going to hell that is not my place that Is God's place, I would never try to do God's Job as you are it is God's joB to keep His promise of john3:16 not mine or yours that is what is so disappointing about your doctrine actually I should say your Gospel, you raise yourself above God and say that you are stronger than God you can make God break His promises and That is real sad .

Gospel 1. God saves us God keeps us saved.
Gospel 2. God saves us, we can seperate ourselves from His love and go to hell. yeah no way these are the same gospel
Ga 1:3Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,Ga 1:4Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:Ga 1:5To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.Ga 1:6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Ga 1:7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.Ga 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.



Without faith It is impossible to please Him!!!
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#24
That is a warped version of the Gospel that puts no emphasis whatsoever on our own actions. God cannot save us if we idly sit by and do nothing. Do you expect God to save you despite His warning about not forgiving your sins unless you forgive the sins of others?

I am not saying I am stronger than God or raising myself above God. Rather, what you are doing is not emphasising the importance of our own obedience, enough. God saved all His people out of Egypt but did all of Israel make it to the Promised Land? Answer is no. Why not?, because they weren't true Israelites? Because they weren't really saved out of Egypt in the first place? No, because of disobedience.
 
K

KingdomGeneration

Guest
#25
That is a warped version of the Gospel that puts no emphasis whatsoever on our own actions. God cannot save us if we idly sit by and do nothing. Do you expect God to save you despite His warning about not forgiving your sins unless you forgive the sins of others?

I am not saying I am stronger than God or raising myself above God. Rather, what you are doing is not emphasising the importance of our own obedience, enough. God saved all His people out of Egypt but did all of Israel make it to the Promised Land? Answer is no. Why not?, because they weren't true Israelites? Because they weren't really saved out of Egypt in the first place? No, because of disobedience.
Excellent point my friend!
 

BLC

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Feb 28, 2009
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#26
Let's do something that the scriptures teach, concerning the things that we are to speak, and compare spiritual with spiritual in (1Cor 2:13). We believe the gospel of Jesus Christ to be this; Christ came as was promised in the likeness of sinful flesh to condemn sin in His flesh on the cross. He took upon His body the sin of the world and was judged for that sin through death. He was buried and rose again on the third day. Through His death, burial and resurrection He put away all sin forever. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing their sins and trespasses unto them, but had imputed them unto His Son, Jesus Christ. Christ was the Lamb that was slain, having all sin transferred to Him, to take away the sin of the world. If we believe this gospel by confessing the Lord Jesus Christ with our mouth and in our heart believe that God raised Him from the dead we shall not perish but have everlasting life.

I think we all agree on that. Now let's compare that to the understanding that we can lose or do something to forfeit the salvation and everlasting life that was promised once we believe. The premise of the gospel is based upon the justice of God that needed all sin to be judged. It would take the blood of a sinless and spotless human sacrifice, offered to God, for sin to be judged and to meet the just demand of a Holy God. Man without God had nothing to do with the plan of God that was executed to judge the sin of man to redeem man from his sin. It was executed without sinful man being involved in any aspect. God's redemption for man was appropriated by God, through God's Son, to redeem man from all sin and be justified to receive God's righteousness by faith. Anything that God did for man could only be received by man though faith, in what God had done for man through Christ.

All the work of God's plan, that provide redemption to man, was executed by God's Son without any work on man's part, thus making redemption God's complete and total work and not man's. Man's part is to believe and receive what God has provided through His Son, Jesus Christ. However, when man believes by faith, man has nothing to do with the salvation that God provides to Him by imputation. It has to be by imputation because it has nothing to do with man being qualified, in any way, to receive it other than being a sinner in need of salvation. That salvation puts us in Christ and seals us with the Holy Spirit, and no man can pluck us out of God's hand (or handiwork). Because we are in Christ, we have been given by the Father to the Son. Jesus said that all the Father has given me none of them are lost (John 17:12, 18:9) and no man can pluck them out of my hand nor my Father's hand (John 10:28,29). So we who believe and are hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3, which is a fixed position that is concealed and locked) have a double protection from the Father and the Son and it is all sealed by the Holy Spirit. All that has been provided by God's grace through faith.

Can man be expected by God to keep and not lose what God judicially provided by grace and through faith, when man could not provide it for himself? If man could keep it, then it would not be by grace nor would it be received by faith. If that is true, man would lose it in a second the first time he failed. There is a lot more to be said but for now that is it.
 
M

Mango_Nugget

Guest
#27
Perhaps you should read Mark 3:28-29, and then try running that again...

Mark 3:28-29 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: (29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:"
John 5:24 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (KJV)

I have posted on this same topic, just under a different thread, with much more detail.
http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=1975
 

BLC

Banned
Feb 28, 2009
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#28
Perhaps you should read Mark 3:28-29, and then try running that again...

Mark 3:28-29 "Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: (29) But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation:"
John 5:24 "Verily, Verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (KJV)

I have posted on this same topic, just under a different thread, with much more detail.
http://christianchat.com/showthread.php?t=1975
I did read your post, it was very good. In the above post who were you replying to, asking them to read (Mk 3:28,29)?
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#29
Tell that to Lazarus. Who Jesus raised from the dead. I guess he died twice :).
You do believe in resurrections from the dead, I hope?

?
there are two people mentioned in the Bible that did not die yet, Enoch for God took and Elijah who rode the Chariot out of here, the Bible does not say that Lazarus died two times and for you to say that you are adding to scriptures , plus you are calling God a lair , for it was inspired by God that it is appointed once for man to die, for you to say that lazarus died twice you are saying that there is an error in the Word of God , I am not sure of your Christian maturity, but please be very careful what you say about God or His Word.


2ti 3:16All scripture is given by INSPIRATION of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#30
That is a warped version of the Gospel that puts no emphasis whatsoever on our own actions. God cannot save us if we idly sit by and do nothing. Do you expect God to save you despite His warning about not forgiving your sins unless you forgive the sins of others?

I am not saying I am stronger than God or raising myself above God. Rather, what you are doing is not emphasising the importance of our own obedience, enough. God saved all His people out of Egypt but did all of Israel make it to the Promised Land? Answer is no. Why not?, because they weren't true Israelites? Because they weren't really saved out of Egypt in the first place? No, because of disobedience.
I really don't think you should say what I believe you don't know me I said I preach Romans 12 more than anything at my Church, but as it says I preach it because it is our reasonable service because we are SAVED, not because what we do is what saves us. Christ has already done the works That I need to be saved by,


Ro 12:1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.Ro 12:2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


But see as V. McGee points out they are two different Gospels

Mine is the Gospel of Done
Yours is the Gospel of Do.
Yours is Based on what you do ,
mine is based on what Jesus has Done
I rely on Him for all My salvation,
you rely on you .
 
M

Mango_Nugget

Guest
#31
BLC - my post was intended for MahogonySnail... and anyone else that wants to claim that if a Christian doesn't forgive (as commanded by the Lord) - that the Christian will go to hell (which is a heracy).

Does that answer your question about my previous post's aim & intentions? (Which, by the way - is the use of scriptures for reproof and edification).
 

BLC

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Feb 28, 2009
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#32
BLC - my post was intended for MahogonySnail... and anyone else that wants to claim that if a Christian doesn't forgive (as commanded by the Lord) - that the Christian will go to hell (which is a heracy).

Does that answer your question about my previous post's aim & intentions? (Which, by the way - is the use of scriptures for reproof and edification).
Yes it does and thank you very much.
 
Jan 31, 2009
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#33
That is a warped version of the Gospel that puts no emphasis whatsoever on our own actions. God cannot save us if we idly sit by and do nothing. Do you expect God to save you despite His warning about not forgiving your sins unless you forgive the sins of others?

I am not saying I am stronger than God or raising myself above God. Rather, what you are doing is not emphasising the importance of our own obedience, enough. God saved all His people out of Egypt but did all of Israel make it to the Promised Land? Answer is no. Why not?, because they weren't true Israelites? Because they weren't really saved out of Egypt in the first place? No, because of disobedience.

Would you please remember this last posting and Tell that to the man on the Cross, you know the one That Jesus promised that he would be in paradise with Him that day. I am believing Jesus Christ for my salvation and you call that warped? OK
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#34
there are two people mentioned in the Bible that did not die yet, Enoch for God took and Elijah who rode the Chariot out of here, the Bible does not say that Lazarus died two times and for you to say that you are adding to scriptures , plus you are calling God a lair , for it was inspired by God that it is appointed once for man to die, for you to say that lazarus died twice you are saying that there is an error in the Word of God , I am not sure of your Christian maturity, but please be very careful what you say about God or His Word.
Lazarus died once, Christ raised him from the dead. Presumably Lazarus died again at the end of his life.
Therefore Lazarus died twice.
If you say Lazarus didn't die twice, then it means you don't believe Christ really raised him from the dead as Scripture says he did. 1+ 1 = 2. Simple math.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#35
BLC - my post was intended for MahogonySnail... and anyone else that wants to claim that if a Christian doesn't forgive (as commanded by the Lord) - that the Christian will go to hell (which is a heracy).

No one has properly answered this question yet. About those who God doesn't forgive their sins, do they still go to heaven?

Scriptures clearly say that if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you.

Now tell me please how someone can get to heaven who God won't forgive their sins?
 
S

Sinnner

Guest
#36
The only reason someone would believe OSAS is because they are unwiling to sacrifice the sins in their life. They are too lazy to walk the narrow path that leads to the narrow gate. I will say it again, to believe OSAS is to reject Jesus and say you no longer need him. You will go to hell believing this false gospel! Beware!
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#37
Would you please remember this last posting and Tell that to the man on the Cross, you know the one That Jesus promised that he would be in paradise with Him that day. I am believing Jesus Christ for my salvation and you call that warped? OK
And I bet, if that theif on the cross said "no thanks Jesus, I deny you", would he be going to heaven?
What is warped, is you basically saying that a person is not capable of doing these things, or that our obedience or disobedience does not play a part whatsoever.
I've posted scriptures that show a righteous man can forsake his righteousness. You ignore them.
There are many examples of people forsaking or denying Christ. Judas Iscariot was one of them.
Yet OSAS believers, being blinded by and trying to justify their own doctrine, seem to ignore these scriptures and this facts.
 
S

Sinnner

Guest
#38
No one has properly answered this question yet. About those who God doesn't forgive their sins, do they still go to heaven?

Scriptures clearly say that if you don't forgive others, God won't forgive you.

Now tell me please how someone can get to heaven who God won't forgive their sins?
They don't. They go to hell even if they were onced saved. Thats because forgiveness is an ongoing process just as we continue to sin we must always ask for forgiveness. We MUST forgive others.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#39
That's what I believe too Sinnner , let's see what the OSAS believers say about it I'm interested to know what they think happens to christians who don't forgive others before they die.
 
T

thefightinglamb

Guest
#40
Thaddaeus, I think you may have read this scripture without contemplating or praying over it:

Jude 1:24Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,Jude 1:25To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.


It is obvious by this scripture that if you keep falling that Christ is not holding you, not that you continue to fall into sin because Christ is holding you.

Also I have a simple question for anyone who believes in OSAS, do you also believe that the Jews are saved indiscrimanitely as well?

How do you read Psalm 95: 10-11

For forty years I loathed that generation and said, "They are a people who go astray in their heart, and they have not known my ways." Therefore I swore in my wrath, "They shall not enter my rest."

I would like you to consider this verse from a Christian perspective as well, talking about Christians and not just jews(Israelites)...It seems when Paul warns that if God did not spare the natural branches who fell into inequity, he may not spare us as well if we fall into inequaity.

I said on the other thread as well: It seems OSAS also has to consider anyone who seeks to follow the Lord as condemned as not thinking that Jesus' acts were self sufficient...This goes from following to simple things like reading the Bible--if by reading the Bible I get closer to the Lord, then perhaps? I did not trust that Jesus alone can get me closer to him...Afterall, it is me reading the Bible and not God giving the knowledge of him apart from my work...

God bless
tony
 
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