each is to die of their own sins

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OwenHeidenreich

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#1
So there is a command in the old testament, "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Deuteronomy[/FONT] 24:16

That is a command. So, legally, why Is Jesus Christ able to die for the forgiveness our sins?
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#2
So there is a command in the old testament, "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

That is a command. So, legally, why Is Jesus Christ able to die for the forgiveness our sins?
Jesus died on your behalf, not as your substitute.

The contradiction you speak of is only applicable in within a legal substitution context. You won't find such a context in the Bible.

Jesus is our kinsman or in other words was made flesh just like us. He was of the seed of Adam.

Jesus lived a life that was free of rebellion to God yet was subjected to the curse. Yet Jesus overcame the flesh, sin and the devil leading the way for those who would follow.

Jesus subjected Himself to a physical death whereby He offered Himself up to God. God found this blemish free sacrifice acceptable and is willing to find acceptable all those who approach Him via this sacrifice. Thus we approach God in a NEW AND LIVING WAY (from the heart) via the blood of Jesus Christ (which purges sin). The old and dead way was the attempt to approach God subjecting our bodies to rules in order to regulate the change required to be made right with God. It doesn't work, it was never meant to work yet many were confused, so God was made manifest in the flesh to CLEARLY show us the right way which is via the Spirit as opposed to the flesh.

Jesus Christ was God's DIRECT visitation to the human race. He came to call our a people from the service of sin unto the service of righteousness. The death of Christ for the forgiveness of sins is not a substitutional legal transaction, rather it the ransoming from the dominion of a destructive master.

Jesus BOUGHT YOU! He PURCHASED YOU!. You the "purchased vessel" now have the OPPORTUNITY to leave your old master which held you in dominion and go and serve your new master. God is willing to forgive those who take advantage of this offer because Jesus claims them as His own.

Those who reject this offer and stick with the old master of sin will perish alongside that master.

Deut 24:16 is in the context of RESPONSIBILITY. We are all accountable for our own sins. The soul that sins shall die.

The death of Christ by no means absolves this responsibility thus there is no contradiction here. There is only a contradiction within the framework of Jesus being a legal substitute whereby an innocent is literally punished in order that the guilty be set free. That is not justice and the Bible does not teach that.
 
May 15, 2013
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#3
So there is a command in the old testament, "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

That is a command. So, legally, why Is Jesus Christ able to die for the forgiveness our sins?
I guess we weren't sons until Jesus came to show us how to be a son.


John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

John 5
19 Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#4
It is very important to realise that God will not forgive anyone who persists in wickedness. Such an act would undermine the righteousness of God implying that it be optional.

David understood this which is why he would say...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

The forgiveness of sin and a heart without guile are closely connected. There cannot be the one without the other.

This is why John the Baptist preached "repentance for remission."

Why did God forgive Nineveh?

Jon 3:4 And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jon 3:5 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jon 3:6 For word came unto the king of Nineveh, and he arose from his throne, and he laid his robe from him, and covered him with sackcloth, and sat in ashes.
Jon 3:7 And he caused it to be proclaimed and published through Nineveh by the decree of the king and his nobles, saying, Let neither man nor beast, herd nor flock, taste any thing: let them not feed, nor drink water:
Jon 3:8 But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.
Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jon 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God will not forgive anyone who refuses to forsake their rebellion to Him. The wrath of God abides on the disobedient.

Carefully read this passage again...

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; [Via the Spirit, ie. we follow the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.]
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. [Past rebellion forgiven.]
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. [The rebellion has ceased, has been forgiven, thus there is no more offering required.]
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, [We confidently enter into an abiding relationship with the Living God via the cross]
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; [Having died to sin we walk by a faith that works by love for we submit our wills to the leading of the Spirit.]
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God; [That High Priest is Jesus Christ who was tempted in all points as we are and yet was without sin. He is our advocate so long as we are abiding in Him. If we deny Him (includes His teachings) then He will deny us because we have not identified ourselves with Him but remain hostile.]
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. [We draw near with a heart that is HONEST, a heart free of GUILE for we are made CLEAN via approaching God via repentance and faith with the blood on our doorposts/identified with Christ.]
Heb 10:23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) [We are to remain steadfast in our profession whereby we walk as He walked (see next verse).]
Heb 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [There is no sacrifice for ongoing rebellion because ongoing rebellion is despising the grace of God. It is treating God's grace lightly as if you can use it like a voucher when it suits you.]
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? [A very strong warning here for those who have been sanctified by the blood. Do not treat the blood with contempt and think you can sin and have grace continue to abound.]

It is the heart God looks at. The HEART. The INNER MAN.

God chose to use the cross as the means by which the HEART could be made clean. The cross has NOTHING to do with a legal swap, that is a satanic deception designed to give a false comfort to those who remain inwardly defiled. If one is inwardly defiled and yet is deceived into thinking they have been made right with God via an abstract provision then that persons own mind will shut the door to genuine reconciliation.

Do not underestimate the deceptions of Satan. He is a roaring lion seeking to devour whom he will.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#5
Owen,

Legal forgiveness of sin is effected through the blood covenant that Jesus made with the house of Israel in the persons of the 11 disciples. This is called the new covenant (also unfortunately called the new testament).

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31

And (Jesus) took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to (the disciples), saying, All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant which is shed for many into freedom from sins. Matthew 26:27-28


A blood covenant is a solemn pact between two parties that unifies the two into one. In other words, everything that one party has becomes the other party's, and vice versa. Kind of like a marriage. In fact, a marriage is a covenant, but it is not a blood covenant. Blood covenants are much more solemn and enduring, and only come into force through the shedding of blood.

When Jesus died on the cross, his blood sealed the new covenant. Legally, everything that he has (righteousness) became the 11 disciples, and everything that they had (sin) became his. In this way, GOD the father was able legally to execute the judgment due sin in the person of Jesus, because legally both had become one. In his death, Jesus, as a proxy, absorbed the wrath demanded by justice for the sake of his covenant friends, and in his resurrection gave his life to the same.

For (GOD) made the one not knowing sin, [to be] sin for our sakes that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21


Once in force, entrance into the old covenant was effected through circumcision. It is the same with the new covenant, except now it is circumcision of the heart (baptism), which is effected through faith.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#6
Owen,

Legal forgiveness of sin is effected through the blood covenant that Jesus made with the house of Israel in the persons of the 11 disciples. This is called the new covenant (also unfortunately called the new testament).
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Jeremiah 31:31

And (Jesus) took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to (the disciples), saying, All of you drink it, for this is my blood of the new covenant which is shed for many into freedom from sins. Matthew 26:27-28


A blood covenant is a solemn pact between two parties that unifies the two into one. In other words, everything that one party has becomes the other party's, and vice versa. Kind of like a marriage. In fact, a marriage is a covenant, but it is not a blood covenant. Blood covenants are much more solemn and enduring, and only come into force through the shedding of blood.

When Jesus died on the cross, his blood sealed the new covenant. Indeed He did. Legally, everything that he has (righteousness) became the 11 disciples, and everything that they had (sin) became his. There is not a single scripture in the Bible which teaches this "legal transaction." Notice that Jesus did not even hint at such a thing in all his teachings. In this way, GOD the father was able legally to execute the judgment due sin in the person of Jesus, because legally both had become one. In his death, Jesus, as a proxy, absorbed the wrath demanded by justice for the sake of his covenant friends, and in his resurrection gave his life to the same.

For (GOD) made the one not knowing sin, [to be] sin for our sakes that we may become the righteousness of God in him. 2 Corinthians 5:21
Notice that this proof text does not say anything about the wrath of God being absorbed by a proxy. What this verse does say is that we may become the righteousness of God IN Him (ie. abiding in the Spirit of His life). Jesus said that "without me you can do nothing" and likened Himself to a vine and believers as the branches. Not a legal exchange, rather an abiding relationship.

Look at this passage...


Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


1. The law of the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ sets us free from the law of sin and death (not a forensic legal transaction).
2. God sent Jesus in the likeness of sinful flesh (flesh that sins) yet Jesus overcame temptation (Jam 1:13, Heb 4:15) and thus did not sin, whereby he condemned sin in the flesh.
3. The reason He did this was that the "righteousness of the law be fullfilled IN us" who walk after the Spirit just like Jesus did (again nothing to do with a legal transaction).

Once in force, entrance into the old covenant was effected through circumcision. It is the same with the new covenant, except now it is circumcision of the heart (baptism), which is effected through faith.
What Satan has done is redefine the Gospel by putting it into an Original Sin (sin is a malady instead of a crime) and Penal Substitution (redemption is premised on an abstract judicial book keeping entry) thus completely removing the concept of MANIFEST HEART PURITY from the Gospel.

Thus the entire Gospel message is twisted into a cloak for an ongoing state of defilement. This is why most modern theology argues in favour of ongoing wickedness in a Christian and uses passages like Romans 7 "carnal and sold under sin" and 1Joh 1:8 (presented in a context of an ongoing state of sinfulness) as the ongoing Christian experience.

It is an utter denial of the power of God to save people from sin. Under this message people remain in bondage to sin and yet proclaim they have been saved from sin. It is pure contradictory nonsense.

 
Sep 4, 2012
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#7
What this verse does say is that we may become the righteousness of God IN Him (ie. abiding in the Spirit of His life). Jesus said that "without me you can do nothing" and likened Himself to a vine and believers as the branches. Not a legal exchange, rather an abiding relationship.
Well we are able to abide in him because we have a legal right to do so through the new covenant.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
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#8
The death of Christ by no means absolves this responsibility thus there is no contradiction here. There is only a contradiction within the framework of Jesus being a legal substitute whereby an innocent is literally punished in order that the guilty be set free. That is not justice and the Bible does not teach that.
Are you sure the bible does not teach that? ;)

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" (
Isaiah 53:10).

The Innocent was punished to redeem the guilty from sin.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#9
Are you sure the bible does not teach that? ;)

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" (
Isaiah 53:10).

The Innocent was punished to redeem the guilty from sin.
That verse does not give the slightest indication that Jesus bore the full wrath of God due the sinner.

In fact the Bible clearly teaches that the wrath of God abides on the disobedient. What happened to the wrath of God being satisfied in regards to the disobedient (Eph 5:6, Col 3:6)? Obviously if it still abides on them then it cannot in any measure be claimed to have been satisfied via a substitutional exchange.

Penal Substitution is error and people need to really examine it in light of Scripture. If they do this honestly they will see fall apart and not only that they will see how dangerous a teaching it actually is.


Let's examine the verse you brought up and compare scripture with scripture...

Isa 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Does God bruising Jesus therefore putting Him to grief mean that God poured out His wrath on Jesus whereby it was satisfied? By no means, the verse does not say anything like that.

Bruise - H1792 - dâkâ'
A primitive root (compare H1794) to crumble; transitively to bruise (literally or figuratively): - beat to pieces, break (in pieces), bruise, contrite, crush, destroy, humble, oppress, smite.

Keep reading...

Isa 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Travail -H5999 - ‛âmâl
From H5998; toil, that is, wearing effort; hence worry, whether of body or mind: - grievance (-vousness), iniquity, labour, mischief, miserable (-sery), pain (-ful), perverseness, sorrow, toil, travail, trouble, wearisome, wickedness.

Soul - H5315 - nephesh
From H5314; properly a breathing creature, that is, animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead (-ly), desire, X [dis-] contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart (-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortality, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-) self, them (your) -selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

Was God's wrath satisfied by the wickedness of the soul of Jesus? That is what the Reformers would like you to believe. No, look at the context of "travail" for it is not that Jesus was made wicked on our behalf in order that God punish Him, no, the vitality of Jesus was made wretched in His suffering on our behalf, a suffering He did not deserve. Jesus did this on our behalf as an example so that "the many" are "justified by his knowledge." The "bearing of iniquity" is not that Jesus was "made into a guilty sinner" so He could be "justly punished." No. Jesus bore our sins in a figurative sense (vice and virtue are moral issues NOT transferable properties) so that WE CAN DIE TO THOSE SINS via DYING WITH JESUS. God is satisfied with this sin offering of Jesus on our behalf for it brings us back to a right relationship with God.

Look at these verses...

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
1Pe 2:22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
1Pe 2:23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Read it again. The real substitution is substituting the "service of sin" for the "service of righteousness."

Look at this verse...

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Jesus was showing us HOW TO DIE to sin. Not by obeying rules and regulations but by a DEATH and a REBIRTH. The cross gets to the ROOT of iniquity within the inner man. The HEART must be purged to make it possible to serve God in righteousness.

Look at this passage...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

The death of Christ has NOTHING to do with a forensic legal transaction. NOTHING! The death of Christ has EVERYTHING to do with dying to sin and being raised up to newness of life. It has to do with a complete cutting off of the old life (whereby we served sin) and the birth of the new life (whereby we serve righteousness).

Look at this passage...

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

No condemnation why? Is it because there was a forensic legal exchange where God poured out His wrath on Jesus thus satisfying the pent up wrath He had and thus does not have to pour it out anymore? NO! That is pure nonsense.

There is no condemnation to them that are IN Christ Jesus. Those who are IN Christ Jesus ABIDE in the Spirit of life which is what sets us free. The law could not do that because it only addressed outward conduct and not the heart. So God sent Jesus Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh and by the life He lived He condemned sin in the flesh. He overcame sin.

Why did Jesus do this? Verse 4 gives the answer.

That the righteousness of God be FULFILLED IN US who WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT. That is the exchange and it is not forensic. It is exchanging "walking according to the lusts of the flesh" for "walking according to the leading of the Spirit."

Modern theology totally blinds people from what the Bible is so plainly teaching. These false doctrines get in the mind and cement themselves in deep and immunise the mind from the simple truths of scripture.

Look at this passage...

Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: [Key verse here]
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: [The body of sins are PUT OFF]
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. [This is a direct parallel to Rom 6:4-7 where we are crucified WITH Christ whereby the old man is crucified and the body of sin is DESTROYED, absolutely NOTHING to do with what Penal Substitution teaches]
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; [Compare to Eph 2:1-5]

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: [See how the service of sin ceases. In times PAST we walked according to the course of this world, NOT ANY MORE! The time of disobedience is PAST.]
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. [The children of wrath are those who walk according to the lusts of the flesh and mind in disobedience to God. Forgiveness is conditioned on the forsaking of this walk, NOT on a forensic legal transaction where Jesus absorbs this wrath for you.]
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) [It is the QUICKENING which saves. Compare to Jam 1:21 where it speaks of the IMPLANTED WORD which saves the soul. Salvation is wrought via cooperating with God (ie. yielding which means BEING FAITHFUL) whereby the ENERGY of God FLOWS THROUGH US. This is what "saved by grace through faith means."]


Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; [The law is done away IN Christ, not the righteousness of the law ONLY THE LETTER hence the "handwriting of ordinances" because righteousness is by a "faith that works by love" (Gal 5:6) not via things like circumcision (Gal 5:4-5).]
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. [Jesus conquered sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3).]
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: [We are not to judge outwardly for rules and rituals have nothing to do with HEART PURITY.]
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Where does the Bible teach Penal Substition? It doesn't, not anywhere. Those who promote this deadly doctrine isolate and proof text single verses and use conjecture to READ INTO those verses their doctrine. Remember this doctrine is only 400 years old. It is of recent invention, a development of Anselm's 11th century satisfaction model. Anselm taught that justice was upheld by the death of Christ while the Reformers taught that wrath was upheld.

Satisfaction Model - Justice Satisfied
Penal Model - Wrath Satisfied.

Traditions of men all of it. I can certainly see some logical sense in what Anselm taught although I see him teaching that which the scriptures do not teach and thus supplanting the "change of the heart" with "justice being satisfied." The Penal Model is complete contradictory nonsense with no foundation whatsoever. People only believe it because that is what they have been taught.

Here is something else Jesus taught...

Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

That is the cross in a nutshell straight from the mouth of Jesus. It is the putting off of the old life for the new.

Penal Substitition is simply not taught in the Bible.
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#10
Here is another passage the wolves pervert.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; [Jesus manifested the righteousness of God via a FAITH THAT WORKS BY LOVE not by external law keeping.]
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: [Compare to Gal 2:20-21]

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. [We who are IN Christ live by the same faith Jesus had, that is a faith that WORKS BY LOVE, thus we are plugged into God and not living separately.]
Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. [The grace of God is frustrated is we seek righteousness in rule keeping. If righteousness was via rule keeping then there would be no need for a death and a rebirth (ie. we die with Christ Rom 8:2-4). This is also a parallel to the issue of the wretch in Romans 7 who is "under the law" and "cannot perform that which is good."

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; [Both Jews and Gentiles alike have sinned (Rom 3:9)]
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: [Now go and read Rom 8:1-4 again. Redemption is found IN Jesus Christ which means we abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. It is a state of existence NOT a positional abstraction.]

Heb 9:6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
Heb 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? [This is a key verse here. We enter into the Holy of Holies by the blood of Christ (Heb 10:19) in the new and living way (Heb 10:20) whereby our consciences are PURGED of sin (2Pet 1:9). This is the sanctification which is being spoken of in Heb 10:29. Our hearts are made right before God for our PREVIOUS rebellion is passed over.]
Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. [This is where the handwriting of ordinances are nailed to the cross whereby one is released from the associated transgressions against them. Under the New Covenant the focus is exclusively on the heart, not on a physical nation.]
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [The New Covenant has been sealed with the blood of Christ.]
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. [Jesus PURCHASED us with His blood. The transaction was completed, not a forensic legal exchange but rather a purchase from enslavement.]

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Heb 9:5 And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.

Propitiation and Mercy Seat is the same Hebrew word.

Propitiation/Mercy Seat - G2435 - hilastērion
hil-as-tay'-ree-on
Neuter of a derivative of G2433; an expiatory (place or thing), that is, (concretely) an atoning victim, or (specifically) the lid of the Ark (in the Temple): - mercyseat, propitiation.

The blood was sprinkled over the mercy seat whereby the sacrifice was made clean. We are the LIVING SACRIFICES (Rom 12:1, Psa 51:17) yielding ourselves to God with a TRUE HEART (Heb 10:22) whereby we are WASHED.

Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. [Compare to Isa 53:10-11 and Rom 5:16-19]
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. [Again a faith that works by love which is wrought via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (ie. without me you can do nothing Joh 15:3-5) as opposed to law keeping.]
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [Righteousness is of the heart as opposed to being by the deeds of the law.]
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. [A faith that works by love ESTABLISHES the righteousness of the law. Thus those in Christ are not under the law but rather a law unto themselves abiding in the righteousness of God being made manifest via the Spirit of God. Thus we have liberty in Christ, not liberty to sin, liberty to do right without being subject to external restrictions of rule keeping.]

Paul then goes on Romans 4 to describe the faith of Abraham and how it was a faith that had a WALK combined with a mind that was TOTALLY CONVINCED that what God said was true. This kind of faith YIELDS FULLY to God and has nothing to do with works done apart from God.
Hence God imputes faith as righteousness apart from deeds (ie. God looks at the heart which is the motivator behind deeds).
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#11
That verse does not give the slightest indication that Jesus bore the full wrath of God due the sinner.

In fact the Bible clearly teaches that the wrath of God abides on the disobedient. What happened to the wrath of God being satisfied in regards to the disobedient (Eph 5:6, Col 3:6)? Obviously if it still abides on them then it cannot in any measure be claimed to have been satisfied via a substitutional exchange.
If God’s wrath was not cancelled through the cross for believers then believers are still under it thus under condemnation. His wrath still abides on the unsaved (Eph 5:6) however it is appeased for the saved due to Christ’s vicarious death, that is propitiation, peace, and reconciliation which does not occur automatically rather one has to turn to Christ in faith in order for it to become a reality in their life. Hence “PROPITIATION through faith” (Rom. 3:25) and “be ye reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20). This is the amazing grace of God that believers are saved from His wrath and experience divine peace (Rom. 5:1) because He first loved us. :)

Christ was a sacrificial substitute just like the unblemished animals in the OT sacrificial system. He was made to be sin for us judicially, not in actuality for He remained the sinless Lamb on the cross, so that we can be made right with God by faith (2 Cor. 5:21).
 
Nov 26, 2011
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#12
If God’s wrath was not cancelled through the cross for believers then believers are still under it thus under condemnation. His wrath still abides on the unsaved (Eph 5:6) however it is appeased for the saved due to Christ’s vicarious death, that is propitiation, peace, and reconciliation which does not occur automatically rather one has to turn to Christ in faith in order for it to become a reality in their life. Hence “PROPITIATION through faith” (Rom. 3:25) and “be ye reconciled to God” (2 Cor. 5:20) . This is the amazing grace of God that believers are saved from His wrath and experience divine peace (Rom. 5:1) because He first loved us.

Christ was a sacrificial substitute just like the unblemished animals in the OT sacrificial system. He was made to be sin for us judicially, not in actuality for He remained the sinless Lamb on the cross, so that we can be made right with God by faith (2 Cor. 5:21).
I think it would be more accurate to state that the wrath of God is "withheld" rather than "cancelled." In the parable of the unforgiving servant the debt was reinstated. Under the Penal Model the "debt is paid in full" and cannot be made due again. To do so would be double-jeopardy.

Under Penal Substitution the wrath is not cancelled but rather meted out on Jesus instead of upon the sinner. The debt is not freely forgiven but instead paid in full.

If you believe that the "wrath of God was poured out on Jesus" and was thus "appeased" then how can that wrath be unappeased in regards to the disobedient? You have not addressed that issue.

You have two choices...

1. Jesus ONLY died for those who would be saved (because the wrath was not satisfied in regards to those who will be lost)

or

2. Universal Salvation is true where everyone will be saved.



Which is it? Or is there a third option that works? I don't think so.

Like I stated earlier the Bible does not teach anywhere that "God poured out His wrath on Jesus whereby the penalty due was paid in full."

Here is how it is usually put...

[h=3][SIZE=+2]There is a penalty for breaking God's law.
It is the death penalty.[/SIZE][/h] [h=3][SIZE=+2]But, There Is Some Good News![/SIZE]
Someone has stepped in, taken your place, and died instead of you so that your penalty is paid and you can go free.[/h] [h=3][SIZE=+2]That person is Jesus Christ.[/SIZE][/h] [h=3]Do you want to live?
Jesus died in your place so that you can live.[/h] What do you need to do? Nothing. If you know you've done wrong and you wish to stop doing wrong and obey God*, and you believe that Jesus did die to pay the penalty you owe for breaking God's laws... Jesus gives you the gift of life for eternity.
Your Second Chance To Go To Heaven

Is that Biblical? No it isn't. What do you need to do it asks. It then says NOTHING, just confess, have a desire to stop doing wrong and believe that Jesus paid your fine.

There is no death of the old man in such teaching because the death of the old man is not necessary. The cross is viewed as an abstract provision which one simply "trusts in." Thus instead of "repent and turn to God" the Gospel is twisted into "confess and trust in the provision." Is it really any wonder that the church system is full of worldliness and hypocrisy?

The central issue here is that HEART PURITY is denied because there is NO PURGING which takes place under this message. Thus converts come through their perceived salvation experience still double-minded still serving sin.

Which is why when you ask 99% of pastors a question like, "does a child molester have to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them?" They answer NO! They cannot say yes because in their mind salvation is purely abstract with its basis on a judicial legal exchange and has NOTHING to do with the condition of the heart. The heart is something they view as being made pure sometime down the road which makes allowance for ongoing wickedness and salvation at the same time.

The entire framework of theology is built around this "saved IN sins" premise. So while there are moral lessons given and people are encouraged to obey it is ALL SECONDARY to "trusting in the provision." Salvation is a purely an abstract notion under this system.


Bear in mind I am not addressing the issue whether the death of Christ can be called "substitutional" for within certain contexts it most certainly can. The issue I am addressing is PENAL substitution which teaches that Jesus bore the punishment due the sinner as a substitute, a PENAL substitute. That is the issue.
 

T_Laurich

Senior Member
Mar 24, 2013
3,356
122
63
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#13
So there is a command in the old testament, "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

That is a command. So, legally, why Is Jesus Christ able to die for the forgiveness our sins?
Because Our parents were and are sinful... We are sinful... Or children will be sinful....

But Jesus he was without sin...

All that the scripture is saying, is that someone who is sinful can not pay an others sin with their life...
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
689
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#14
If you believe that the "wrath of God was poured out on Jesus" and was thus "appeased" then how can that wrath be unappeased in regards to the disobedient? You have not addressed that issue.
The penalty paid in full is sufficient for all men, but can only be appropriated via the new covenant. The covenant binds GOD to forgive, and man to obey the laws of the covenant. Those who refuse to become members of the covenant are without the blessings of the covenant and will bear the wrath they were already under. And those who become members of the covenant, but disobey its laws will incur the covenant's curses.
 

starfield

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2009
3,393
58
48
#15
I think it would be more accurate to state that the wrath of God is "withheld" rather than "cancelled." In the parable of the unforgiving servant the debt was reinstated. Under the Penal Model the "debt is paid in full" and cannot be made due again. To do so would be double-jeopardy.

Under Penal Substitution the wrath is not cancelled but rather meted out on Jesus instead of upon the sinner. The debt is not freely forgiven but instead paid in full.

If you believe that the "wrath of God was poured out on Jesus" and was thus "appeased" then how can that wrath be unappeased in regards to the disobedient? You have not addressed that issue.

You have two choices...

1. Jesus ONLY died for those who would be saved (because the wrath was not satisfied in regards to those who will be lost)

or

2. Universal Salvation is true where everyone will be saved.



Which is it? Or is there a third option that works? I don't think so.

Like I stated earlier the Bible does not teach anywhere that "God poured out His wrath on Jesus whereby the penalty due was paid in full."

Here is how it is usually put...


Your Second Chance To Go To Heaven

Is that Biblical? No it isn't. What do you need to do it asks. It then says NOTHING, just confess, have a desire to stop doing wrong and believe that Jesus paid your fine.

There is no death of the old man in such teaching because the death of the old man is not necessary. The cross is viewed as an abstract provision which one simply "trusts in." Thus instead of "repent and turn to God" the Gospel is twisted into "confess and trust in the provision." Is it really any wonder that the church system is full of worldliness and hypocrisy?

The central issue here is that HEART PURITY is denied because there is NO PURGING which takes place under this message. Thus converts come through their perceived salvation experience still double-minded still serving sin.

Which is why when you ask 99% of pastors a question like, "does a child molester have to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them?" They answer NO! They cannot say yes because in their mind salvation is purely abstract with its basis on a judicial legal exchange and has NOTHING to do with the condition of the heart. The heart is something they view as being made pure sometime down the road which makes allowance for ongoing wickedness and salvation at the same time.

The entire framework of theology is built around this "saved IN sins" premise. So while there are moral lessons given and people are encouraged to obey it is ALL SECONDARY to "trusting in the provision." Salvation is a purely an abstract notion under this system.


Bear in mind I am not addressing the issue whether the death of Christ can be called "substitutional" for within certain contexts it most certainly can. The issue I am addressing is PENAL substitution which teaches that Jesus bore the punishment due the sinner as a substitute, a PENAL substitute. That is the issue.
Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"

Propitiation: G2435
hilastērion
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
b) an expiatory sacrifice
c) a expiatory victim


The scripture says that God is angry with the wicked everyday so the disobedient need to be reconciled to Him through repentance and faith in Christ's atoning work otherwise God's wrath remains on them (John 3:36). However, those who are under a blood covenant with God through Christ are saved from His wrath (Romans 5:1, Romans 8:1). You don't want to believe this? Suit yourself.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#16
What Satan has done is redefine the Gospel by putting it into an Original Sin (sin is a malady instead of a crime) and Penal Substitution (redemption is premised on an abstract judicial book keeping entry) thus completely removing the concept of MANIFEST HEART PURITY from the Gospel.
You are in no position to deny penal substitutionary atonement until you address the following:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over


(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

Careful examination of these verses by the following questions and answers regarding them
show penal substitutionary atonement.

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?


-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (i.e., punishment = penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Punishment due on their sin at the Final Judgment.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (i.e., his sacrifice was atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (i.e., the atonement was subsitutionary)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of my sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty,
is applied to me only by faith
in his propitiation,
and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.


7) How is God both just and the one who justifies?

-----He is just in requiring a penalty for law breaking, and he is the one who justifies by providing payment of the penalty in presenting his own Son as a sacrifice of propitiation to make reparation.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents penal substitutionary atonement.

Now, if you think these answers are not consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture, you must demonstrate such with responsive answers to all the
questions, answers which are consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture.

Please use the Scriptures themselves in your responses, not fallacious human conjecture.

I await your explanation, consistent with examination of the text and the rest of Scripture, that shows Jesus' substitutionary atonement was not penal.
 
Last edited:
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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#17

You are in no position to deny penal substitutionary atonement until you address the following:

"God presented Jesus as a sacrifice of propitiation (atonement) through faith in his blood.

He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had passed over


(left unpunished) the sins committed beforehand (OT)--he did it to demonstrate his justice

at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies." (Ro 3:25-26)

Careful examination of these verses by the following questions and answers regarding them
show penal substitutionary atonement.

1) What did God "pass over" the sins committed beforehand (OT)?


-----Penalty on their sin was "passed over," their sin was left unpunished. (i.e., punishment = penal)

2) The "what passed over" (penalty) consisted precisely of?

-----Punishment due on their sin at the Final Judgment.

3) How did the "what passed over" (penalty) demonstrate God's justice?

-----Justice requires a penalty for law breaking.

4) For what did Jesus' sacrificial death atone?

-----The law-breaking of all those who believe in his propitiation for their sin (of breaking God's laws). (i.e., his sacrifice was atonement)

5) How does Jesus' sacrificial death atone (make reparation, amends) for it?

-----He paid the penalty due for their law-breaking. (i.e., the atonement was subsitutionary)

6) What is the connection between his atonement and my faith in it (his blood)?

-----The forgiveness of my sin, purchased by Jesus' sacrifice of propitiation paying my penalty,
is applied to me only by faith
in his propitiation,
and that forgiveness is salvation, from the wrath of God (Ro 5:9) at the final judgment.


7) How is God both just and the one who justifies?

-----He is just in requiring a penalty for law breaking, and he is the one who justifies by providing payment of the penalty in presenting his own Son as a sacrifice of propitiation to make reparation.

The word of God in Ro 3:25-26 clearly presents penal substitutionary atonement.

Now, if you think these answers are not consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture, you must demonstrate such with responsive answers to all the
questions, answers which are consistent with the text and the rest of Scripture.

Please use the Scriptures themselves in your responses, not fallacious human conjecture.

I await your explanation, consistent with examination of the text and the rest of Scripture, that shows Jesus' substitutionary atonement was not penal.

I have addresses those question in the past. Use google and search for Skinski7 chritianchat.com and key words from those questions.

I believe you have read my responses previously but simply did not like my answers.
 
Oct 31, 2011
8,200
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#18
So there is a command in the old testament, "Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin." Deuteronomy 24:16

That is a command. So, legally, why Is Jesus Christ able to die for the forgiveness our sins?
Jesus is not "people", Jesus is God. What Jesus did is WAY beyond the death that people have, it was to repair that death we would have without what Jesus did.
 
Sep 8, 2012
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#19
The thing about legalists, is they minimize the atonement.
In so doing they maximize their own effort.
Thus becoming more important in their own eyes.
Pelagians tend to like to beat the drum of righteousness by self.
Of course, while they do this they subtract from reliance on the Messiah.
It is a vicious circle.
The more righteous you become, the more righteous you need to be.
Until eventually they reach a plateau of self righteousness that they call being sanctified.
But it isn't that at all.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
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#20
Me in blue.

Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God"

Propitiation: G2435
hilastērion
1) relating to an appeasing or expiating, having placating or expiating force, expiatory; a means of appeasing or expiating, a propitiation
a) used of the cover of the ark of the covenant in the Holy of Holies, which was sprinkled with the blood of the expiatory victim on the annual day of atonement (this rite signifying that the life of the people, the loss of which they had merited by their sins, was offered to God in the blood as the life of the victim, and that God by this ceremony was appeased and their sins expiated); hence the lid of expiation, the propitiatory
b) an expiatory sacrifice
c) a expiatory victim


The scripture says that God is angry with the wicked everyday so the disobedient need to be reconciled to Him through repentance and faith in Christ's atoning work otherwise God's wrath remains on them (John 3:36). However, those who are under a blood covenant with God through Christ are saved from His wrath (Romans 5:1, Romans 8:1). You don't want to believe this? Suit yourself.
An appeasement offering has NOTHING to do with a "Penal Substitution."

I do believe that those who have been reconciled are under a blood covenant with God through Jesus Christ and that we are reconciled to God through repentance and faith via Christ's atoning work. Such things do not mean "Penal Substitution" is true.

Penal Substitution teaches that Jesus stood in your place and was thus punished in your place. The wrath of God was thus SATISFIED and is thus is no longer due. This twists the death of Christ into a purely ABSTRACT legal transaction as the basis of justification.

The Bible teaches that the blood of Christ PURGES THE CONSCIENCE whereby the WRATH OF GOD is expiated because God is merciful. It is in approaching God with a TRUE HEART via the death of the old man (dying with Christ) whereby one has identified themselves with the new man (by walking in the light as He is in the light) that God is willing to wipe away past transgression.

It is NOT a cloak for an ongoing state of defilement which is clearly what Penal Substitution teaches. Penal Substitution leaves people DEAD IN SIN with WICKED HEARTS but with a NOTION that they have been JUDICIALLY DECLARED JUST. This doctrine does not produce the internal cleansing the Bible speaks about.

MANY people are going to stand at the judgment who remained "workers of iniquity" and Jesus is going to reject them. They never came clean before God, their old man was never crucified and thus they were never TRULY born again. There MUST be a DEATH in order that REBIRTH takes place.

Penal Substitution ELIMINATES the death and replaces it with a "judicial book keeping entry." Thus converts under this teaching view themselves as "carnal wretches and sold under sin." Their salvation is based on TRUST IN A PROVISION instead of a literal ABIDING IN THE TRUTH. Light and darkness do not mix. Penal Substitution produces double-minded converts who "still SERVE sin." They are under the delusion that the PROVISION covers their sin service thus they preach the sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent message.

The one point I have brought up which you completely ignore Starfied is this...

The scripture says that God is angry with the wicked everyday so the disobedient need to be reconciled to Him through repentance and faith in Christ's atoning work otherwise God's wrath remains on them (John 3:36). However, those who are under a blood covenant with God through Christ are saved from His wrath (Romans 5:1, Romans 8:1). What about the disobedient who remain under wrath? Did not Jesus absorb the wrath of God as their substitute to? You appear to completely ignore this point.

If the death of Christ was "paying the penalty in full" whereby it is no longer owed anymore then that clearly means that Jesus ONLY died for those whom will be saved but did not die for those who will be lost.

If the wrath of God abides on the disobedient then that means that that wrath WAS NOT satisfied by a PENAL SUBSTITUTE right?

Again Penal Substitution is only 400 years old. It is a RECENT invention of lawyers who added a judicial punishment aspect to Anselm's "justice being satisfied" model.

Anselm = Justice Satsified
Penal = Wrath Satisfied.


You don't want to believe this? Suit yourself.