Easiest way to refute Calvinism

[Slayer]

One Calvinist friend of mine said that babies are "born reprobate" and that then later they are also "reprobate so that they CAN'T believe"... which does not make sense to me (and I believe, does not make good biblical sense of the passage under discussion). I mean, according to Calvinism, they can't believe (EVER).

Three times it states "God gave up them [G3860 G846]," in Rom1:24,26,28, and in that last one it says, "God gave up them [G3860 G846] UNTO a depraved/reprobate mind TO DO things not being proper/fitting." What would be the meaning of "God gave up them [G3860 G846] unto" if that was already the state they started from (from birth, or from conception/existence)?

It's describing the relationship the reprobate have with God, it's a very easy to understand relationship. God gave them over or up, it doesn't state the exact time it took place. That is immaterial, the main thing is they are doomed whichever way you look at it. That's the only take away message from all the scriptures which deal with the reprobate.

 

[garee]

One Calvinist friend of mine said that babies are "born reprobate" and that then later they are also "reprobate so that they CAN'T believe"... which does not make sense to me (and I believe, does not make good biblical sense of the passage under discussion). I mean, according to Calvinism, they can't believe (EVER).

Three times it states "God gave up them [G3860 G846]," in Rom1:24,26,28, and in that last one it says, "God gave up them [G3860 G846] UNTO a depraved/reprobate mind TO DO things not being proper/fitting." What would be the meaning of "God gave up them [G3860 G846] unto" if that was already the state they started from (from birth, or from conception/existence)?

If they have no faith how could they beleive? Eternal faith is the gift.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.

 

[posthuman]

He has probably a problem with the term "regeneration" or that only specific individuals get the needed receptors for God's salvic grace.

usually the human objection is that God is somehow unfair and/or capricious if He gives one person eyes to see and does not give the same to all other people ((in terms of spiritual eyes, this argument in one form or another))

please refer to Potter having the right to do with the clay as He sees fit: i cannot make myself His judge, and reality doesn't depend on what i think is logical or right, but as He ordains. He is God and must remain God in whatever view we take.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Would that be the "Potter" passage from Jeremiah 18:6-10?


6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

7 At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it;

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;

10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.


[see also Rom9:26/Hos1:10-11 (distinct from v.25) and Hos5:15-6:3... and Rom11:15,25-29]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ That second picture is great.

To go along with the verses I posted earlier, as well as that second picture:

30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring [G3853 - parangellei - charges, commands, entreats solemnly] to men [people] that all people everywhere should repent [to repent-active], 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through/in a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him [in having raised Him] [out-]from the dead.” Acts 17:30-31

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Romans 1 is about the world in general that they have no excuse for not believing in a higher power that created all things, and not loving this higher power and people, which covers the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people, the universal law that covers the whole history of mankind from Adam and Eve to the last one born on earth.

Creation alone testifies there is a higher power that loves people, for He provided food, and the means to make clothing, and shelter, so they should love this higher power, and people, so the world is without excuse if they do not.

Creation alone will judge the world, but also the word of God goes against them if they disobey it.

It is not talking about disobedient children of God, although they are judged for hypocrisy, and not obeying the truth, but people who see by creation that a higher power created all things, but chose not to believe it in the truth.

Rom 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Wrath of God is revealed against all ungodliness, and unrighteousness, who hold the truth in unrighteousness, which is talking of the world, all people that do not believe.

Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

Creation testifies of God and of His attributes which one of them is love, so they should believe in a higher power, and love people. Creation testifies that God is good, loving, powerful, and intelligent.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

They knew God by creation but ignored the truth of Him.

These people refused to believe God in the truth, and were in to idols, and evolution, and denying the true God, for they served nature more than they served the Creator.

If you say disobedient children of God they would not fit this pattern, for they would have the right perspective of God, but they are disobedient by way of not obeying His holiness.

These people do not have the right perspective of God, some into natural things attributing it to God, nature worship, and some like today believing in evolution.

So it is addressed to the world from Adam and Eve to the last person born on earth that nobody throughout history has an excuse for not believing in a higher power in the truth, for creation testifies of the truth.

And if addressed to the world that they have no excuse for ignoring the truth which lies in the 2 greatest laws, love God, and love people, which is how a person becomes a child of God, then anybody can have salvation.

1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent.

God said that He does not want anybody to perish, and repent, and come to the knowledge of the truth, and be saved.

God commands every person to repent on earth, and if He commands that every person on earth repent, then anybody can be saved.

I have already explained Romans 1. The natural man cannot suppress something he does not have, the truth. 1 Ti 2, There is a deliverance (salvation) when those that are born of the Spirit come to a knowledge of the truth. this deliverance comes here on earth, not eternally. 2 Pet 3:9, To keep this verse in context, we have to look at 2 Pet 1:1, Peter is talking to them that have obtained LIKE PRECIOUS FAITH. Peter is warning them of the result of them not repenting when they are disobedient to God. Peter even includes himself by using the word "US-WARD". We are considered, by scripture, as being dead to our fellowship with God when we are disobedient, thus explaining Peters use of the word "PERISH". Rev 22:17, The natural man can not hear and understand God's spiritual invitation to come, it is foolishness unto him. John 1:9, Too many other scriptures that will not harmonize unless "EVERY MAN" is every elect man. Acts 17:29, If they have not the Spirit, they are none of his. and they are not the "OFFSPRING" of God. Acts 17:30, The natural man, void of the Spirit, will not, even can not repent of being disobedient of a spiritual law that he does not, and can not discern. Anytime you use scripture that uses the words, repent, confess, believe, accept etc. they are addressed to disobedient children of God, and not to the natural man, void of the Spirit.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Roman 9 -

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. [Jesus: "I AM... THE TRUTH" ]

Romans 10 -

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
[...]
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Psalm 19 -

1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race...


He was "sent" unto them [Israel "FIRST"]... and "He came unto His own..." [Israel] (Acts 3, John 1)