Easy Believism and Lordship Salvation (why both are false Gospels)

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
#61
I believe in a changed life after salvation, but I do not believe salvation was bound on works in any ways

Yes, bearing in mind that "changed life" does not look the same for everyone and this is where proof becomes problematic.
 

Jewel5712

Well-known member
Jun 22, 2018
4,091
2,270
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#63
First off, Easy Believism. I used to be deceived by this false Gospel, which says all you have to do is believe, a godly sorrow as described in 2 Corinthians 7:10 is not required. That's of course not what the Bible says. We indeed do not have to change our life to get saved, but if we are saved we will start to change (Philippians 1:6, 1 Peter 2:2). You cannot deny that.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinthians 5:17

I used to follow David J. Stewart and his jesus-is-savior.com Website. However, he is clearly confused. How can it be that somebody acknowledges his sinnership but is not willing to turn from his sins? The Greek word for "repentance" is "metanoia", which indeed means "a change of mind", however, that's not all it means, it also leads to a change of actions.

And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed. 2 Corinthians 12:21

If we are saved, we will feel grieved if we backslide. See King David. You cannot be a Christian and feel good in sin. There are many LGBT's who claim to be Christians. Of course they are being dishonest.

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Hebrews 12:8

We all fall short, but at least we get back up from time to time.

For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief. Proverbs 24:16

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8 (interlinear, that is one of the few things the KJV messed up)

People like Charles Stanley believe a Christian would become an apostate, that does not fit into what scripture says.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Luke 8:15

If you are saved, you will have new desires, simple as that. We are to examine ourselves and make our calling and election sure.

On the other hand we have Lordship Salvation, which says you must do good works to maintain or proof our salvation. There is no doubt that the Holy Spirit produces fruit in us, and that fruit is repentance and good works, however, that does not mean our salvation was bound on them. People like John MacArthur claim to teach eternal security, however, they also say, you must go through a longer period of time to proof your salvation by doing good works, so if somebody tells him that he just got saved and knows it because he has the Holy Spirit in him convicting him of his sins, then Pastor MacArthur says, no, you first must examine yourself for two, three years and see how successfull you are, becoming a Christian is not easy. That of course is false, salvation is easy. A child can already accept Christ if he has conviction and godly sorrow over his sins. We are not changing ourselves, the Holy Spirit changes us! We can know that we received salvation.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1 John 5:13

Ray Comfort says you must successfully turn from your sins to get saved, godly sorrow and being willing to turn from them was not enough. That of course is faith plus works. We are depraved (Ephesians 2:1-4) and nee the Holy Spirit to clean up our lives.

Paul Washer has complained of the Gospel being turned into a flush shot. Well...

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Acts 2:41

Did the Apostle Peter turn the Gospel into a flu shot? I think not. Repentance is pretty easy to understand, it is a change of mind and heart which results into a change of actions. Pretty simple.

Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Acts 20:26


God bless you all
The descision and prayer to believe and accept Jesus is the often easier part..but the daily walk after can be harder so i dont know if easy believism is false...
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,643
3,035
113
#64
you know, he said absolutely nothing whatsoever about being sinless

I find that when someone jumps to this conclusion they may be a struggle with some particular sin, they feel judged and then jump on someone who mentions turning away from your sin..as scripture actually says a converted person will do and they have the Holy Spirit to enable them to turn from sin

I have no idea if that applies to you, but it is an observation.

your post is just screaming anger and judgement. you make the op sound like he is personally directing what he said to you

if the shoe fits, wear it, but maybe don't go postal and claim he said things he never said or intended

why is that?
I am not here to defend myself against accusers of the brethren..

My post was to meant to convict the person of their own sin .. they continued sin.. Their doctrine actually condemns them because they do not change to become a sinless human being..

No one stops sinning and that's why we all need the continuous covering of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Yes i hate false doctrine .. I hate the stumbling stone of works salvation religion that this guy is preaching..

I hate that preaching with a passion..

His doctrine is against salvation by believing Jesus and trusting in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ .. He declares that to be easy believism and thus is mocking the loving gift my LORD Jesus Christ suffered a terrible death to secure for me.. He has replaced it with the old to be saved you must stop sinning and become a good person religious lie perpetrated on so many people and leading those who believe it to the eternal lake of fire..

So yeah i hate people being deceived and being lead to the eternal lake of fire.. I hate that a lot..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,643
3,035
113
#65
LW97 said :: """You took my words out of context. I said no such thing"""
Are you or are you not preching that we Must be Obediant . ? Yes or No

That believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation is not enough? Yes or No
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
235
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#66
Are you or are you not preching that we Must be Obediant . ? Yes or No

That believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation is not enough? Yes or No
1) No
2) No
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#67
I am not here to defend myself against accusers of the brethren..

My post was to meant to convict the person of their own sin .. they continued sin.. Their doctrine actually condemns them because they do not change to become a sinless human being..

No one stops sinning and that's why we all need the continuous covering of the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ..

Yes i hate false doctrine .. I hate the stumbling stone of works salvation religion that this guy is preaching..

I hate that preaching with a passion..

His doctrine is against salvation by believing Jesus and trusting in the atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ .. He declares that to be easy believism and thus is mocking the loving gift my LORD Jesus Christ suffered a terrible death to secure for me.. He has replaced it with the old to be saved you must stop sinning and become a good person religious lie perpetrated on so many people and leading those who believe it to the eternal lake of fire..

So yeah i hate people being deceived and being lead to the eternal lake of fire.. I hate that a lot..
you know, many arguements are caused in this forum by someone responding to a post or an op, having not read it properly or perhaps misunderstood what was being said

1. the op did not say anything about being able to be sinless. that is your misinterpretation

2. the op is not soapboxing a doctrine. that is your interpretation

3. if you hate people being deceived etc, maybe take into your consideration the ENTIRE counsel of scripture

4. if you don't understand, always better to ask questions

5. you think you understood, apparently, and flew off the handle

6. obedience to Christ is or should be, the normative for believers.

7. he did not say we are saved by works

8. please polish up your comprehension skills. your post was accusatory and uncalled for.

perhaps you might find something more to your liking in the 'not by works' thread'. there, you can argue with folks all day long and accuse and misinterpret and just have a field day
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
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#68
you know, many arguements are caused in this forum by someone responding to a post or an op, having not read it properly or perhaps misunderstood what was being said

1. the op did not say anything about being able to be sinless. that is your misinterpretation

2. the op is not soapboxing a doctrine. that is your interpretation

3. if you hate people being deceived etc, maybe take into your consideration the ENTIRE counsel of scripture

4. if you don't understand, always better to ask questions

5. you think you understood, apparently, and flew off the handle

6. obedience to Christ is or should be, the normative for believers.

7. he did not say we are saved by works

8. please polish up your comprehension skills. your post was accusatory and uncalled for.

perhaps you might find something more to your liking in the 'not by works' thread'. there, you can argue with folks all day long and accuse and misinterpret and just have a field day
Thanks for the answer :)
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#69
Thanks for the answer :)
this is a topic that constantly gets attacked

people confuse the obedience taught in the NT with works salvation

its never ending :rolleyes:
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
235
63
#70
this is a topic that constantly gets attacked

people confuse the obedience taught in the NT with works salvation

its never ending :rolleyes:
Amen. Obedience is not difficult
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#71
Amen. Obedience is not difficult

well I would say understanding obedience is not difficult

enacting it on the other hand.....

or did you mean the concept of obedience is not difficult
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
235
63
#72
well I would say understanding obedience is not difficult

enacting it on the other hand.....

or did you mean the concept of obedience is not difficult
I believe most people do not understand what it means to deny yourself and take up your cross
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#73
I believe most people do not understand what it means to deny yourself and take up your cross
I would agree that it means different things to different people

and I have heard teaching on this subject all over the place

prob a subject for another thread

thanks
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,643
3,035
113
#74
you know, many arguements are caused in this forum by someone responding to a post or an op, having not read it properly or perhaps misunderstood what was being said

1. the op did not say anything about being able to be sinless. that is your misinterpretation

2. the op is not soapboxing a doctrine. that is your interpretation

3. if you hate people being deceived etc, maybe take into your consideration the ENTIRE counsel of scripture

4. if you don't understand, always better to ask questions

5. you think you understood, apparently, and flew off the handle

6. obedience to Christ is or should be, the normative for believers.

7. he did not say we are saved by works

8. please polish up your comprehension skills. your post was accusatory and uncalled for.

perhaps you might find something more to your liking in the 'not by works' thread'. there, you can argue with folks all day long and accuse and misinterpret and just have a field day
The OP post included the following i will bold the important words..

LW97 said:
I used to follow David J. Stewart and his jesus-is-savior.com Website. However, he is clearly confused. How can it be that somebody acknowledges his sinnership but is not willing to turn from his sins? The Greek word for "repentance" is "metanoia", which indeed means "a change of mind", however, that's not all it means, it also leads to a change of actions.

What change in actions is the OP talking about... Why it is a change in actual sinning actions.. He was not talking about just a repentant change of attitude towards sin described in 2 Corinthians 7:10... He was talking about change in actions ...

So yeah we can have sorrow of our sins each and every time we commit them i agree and that's good.. But if this is supposed to also include a change of actions then i will stand against that teaching to the end.. Once you sin after making a declaration that a ""change of actions" is a requirement then the first time you sin you have not changed your actions have you ?????????? Have you??????? You have failed to change your actions the very first time you sin a sin..

So LW97 has indeed sinned and will probably sin today and every time he does so he will have failed to change his sin actions..

Thus by his own preaching he will have failed.. And he is teaching this to everyone.. Once you fail in changing your actions then your salvation is no longer certain..

I thank God i do not believe in such a doctrine...
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
235
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#75
The OP post included the following i will bold the important words..




What change in actions is the OP talking about... Why it is a change in actual sinning actions.. He was not talking about just a repentant change of attitude towards sin described in 2 Corinthians 7:10... He was talking about change in actions ...

So yeah we can have sorrow of our sins each and every time we commit them i agree and that's good.. But if this is supposed to also include a change of actions then i will stand against that teaching to the end.. Once you sin after making a declaration that a ""change of actions" is a requirement then the first time you sin you have not changed your actions have you ?????????? Have you??????? You have failed to change your actions the very first time you sin a sin..

So LW97 has indeed sinned and will probably sin today and every time he does so he will have failed to change his sin actions..

Thus by his own preaching he will have failed.. And he is teaching this to everyone.. Once you fail in changing your actions then your salvation is no longer certain..

I thank God i do not believe in such a doctrine...
Please stop taking words into my mouth.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
#76
The OP post included the following i will bold the important words..




What change in actions is the OP talking about... Why it is a change in actual sinning actions.. He was not talking about just a repentant change of attitude towards sin described in 2 Corinthians 7:10... He was talking about change in actions ...

So yeah we can have sorrow of our sins each and every time we commit them i agree and that's good.. But if this is supposed to also include a change of actions then i will stand against that teaching to the end.. Once you sin after making a declaration that a ""change of actions" is a requirement then the first time you sin you have not changed your actions have you ?????????? Have you??????? You have failed to change your actions the very first time you sin a sin..

So LW97 has indeed sinned and will probably sin today and every time he does so he will have failed to change his sin actions..

Thus by his own preaching he will have failed.. And he is teaching this to everyone.. Once you fail in changing your actions then your salvation is no longer certain..

I thank God i do not believe in such a doctrine...

sigh

I'm not sure what is going on with you?

but I'll just say again that the op is nothing like what you think it is

what you seem to have understood, is like a foreign language that the op does not speak and frankly neither do I

the fault lies in your understanding
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
#77
Are you or are you not preching that we Must be Obediant . ? Yes or No

That believing Jesus and trusting in the Atonement He secured for our salvation is not enough? Yes or No
I believe most people do not understand what it means to deny yourself and take up your cross

What do you think it means?
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
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#78
Simply because you believe in Messiah does not make one saved. As well saying Messiah is your Lord or Master does not make it true.
Roman's 10:8 alludes to another scripture in Deuteronomy 30. It says, "No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it."

What is this salvation or good news we have been brought close to through the blood of Messiah? It is the covenants and promises. We have a chance of a renewed covenant as it says in Jeremiah 31:31 that a "new covenant" will be made. This is not like the one made before that they broke. This covenant is fresh, new, renewed by Messiah. No longer can this covenant be broken by us because of sin. It also empowers the believer through faith to overcome sin and live in obedience to the instructions of the Father.
In order to be redeemed is a matter of trust and hearing the word of Elohim. When we really hear it brings faith into the believer. If they then follow the Messiah their healing comes through works. You can do nothing to gain your salvation as the testimony says, however we do the will of the Father because we are saved and our confidence as well as heart is renewed in the promise and through doing the Good Works meant for mankind to live in.
 

LW97

Senior Member
Apr 10, 2018
1,140
235
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#79
What do you think it means?
What does it mean to take up the cross daily? It is very sad that the particular Scripture passages in Matt. 16:24, Mark 8:34, 10:21 and Luke 9:23 are so often misunderstood. Too often preachers use these verses as a threat to force people into works, self-consciousness and Christian performance, when in all reality it is one of the most beautiful experiences for a Christian to take up the cross daily. What cross you may ask? An understanding of pure Grace is necessary to realize that it is His cross and we glory in His cross, because He already went on the cross for us. Consider the following regarding this issue from a Grace-oriented and Christ-centered viewpoint:

"But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world."
Gal. 6:14
Taking up the cross daily means that Christ wants us to focus on Him, the author and finisher of our faith (Hebrews 12:2). As we look unto His Finished Work (John 19:30) on the cross of Calvary, which was the manifestation of His Love expressed through Mercy and Grace as He met the conditions of His perfect justice, He is able to work in and through us to manifest His Love with the mind of Christ active in us (1 Cor. 2:16; Phil. 2:5)through acts of Mercy and Grace to the folks around us including to ourselves. It's His cross that we want as a frame of reference.

The Holy Spirit continuously motivates each Christian to look unto Him and with our free volition we say "Yes" and then He can work in and through us. And letting Him work in and through us is what Jesus Christ means in His Word when He speaks about taking up the cross daily. It's at His cross where we meet Him, our Lord and Savior, and where He finished the work. Now we have peace with God and we can rest and let Him perform His work in us to conform us to His image (Romans 8:29).

And it is very important to understand that to take up His cross is never an actual work performed by a Christian and it's never a burden or a matter of distress, but instead the cross represents a place of victory and glory. Calvary's cross is the only cross God will and can accept. There's no sacrifice we as individuals can offer to God as God doesn't want our sacrifices (Psalm 40:6, 51:16-17), but instead He wants our heart (Proverbs 23:26; a choice in our free will to let him take over our lives which is not a work by itself, but only a type of mental consent) and that's not a sacrifice or work. When we give Him our heart it's the most joyous thing an individual can do to experience the Resurrection Life of Christ in this lifetime. And then the presentation of our bodies as living sacrifices in Romans 12:1 is no longer a work performed by the efforts of an individual, but instead it is the working of the Holy Spirit in us as our minds are renewed (Rom. 12:2).

Some confuse the taking up of the cross with some burden, distress, work, Christian performance and/or duty, discomfort or whatever, when in fact it is one of the greatest things a Christian can experience every day of his/her life as an individual yields to the kind and loving urging/pleading of the Holy Spirit to let Christ reign in them for that day, hour, minute and every single moment. It's also true when we yield to the Holy Spirit that the things on earth will grow strangely dim as we will no longer yearn to fulfill our human-based (sin nature rooted) desires, but instead we'll be delighted in His will as we have faith (trust) in Him that His way (plan) is perfect (Psalm 18:30). Yes, once again it's all by Grace and the flesh profits nothing (John 6:63).
 

JohnTalmid

Senior Member
Mar 17, 2017
516
44
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#80
Amen Glory in the finished work of Messiah. Glory not in your own efforts even by faith. However we are called to obedience to the perfect will of his Father in Heaven.
I have come to glory in the finished work of my Master the Messiah and see his Mind at work in me through the instructions known as the Holy Word of Elohim. Our minds are renewed through the instruction of the Father. It is a hard path to walk. Even my heart fights against the righteousness of Messiah however if anyone can overcome it is they who believes in the son of Elohim who works the Spirit in us until the day we will be like him.