End time signs in Amillennialism?

[Lanolin]

I think we still got to do our bit for the Kingdom of heaven that we believers are citizens of to spread the good news. And why would it be good news if Jesus did not come for us personally. Yes he sends us the holy spirit that we cannot see in the natural but we know hes supernatural. But we are actually all still going to see Jesus face to face. Its not that we are waiting around twiddling our thumbs though. Were just preparing.

Its kind of like christmas. You tidy up the house, get the food prepped, put on new clothes, wash up. Wrap the presents, invite the guests. If you dont do all these things then christmas day is just like any other day., nothing special. Oh christmas was yesterday too bad you missed it. We didnt do anything. Amills seem to be like the people who say bah humbug or maybe they are the people who say christmas is everyday lol.

 

[Jimbone]

What about the time when Jesus actually has put everything under his feet and takes up residence in the New Jerusalem. Just wondering what you believe about that, whther He still has a heart for his homeland and chosen people. So e people say well the narion of isrel isnt that its been 'replaced' and that covenant was completely broken. That promised land is not that piece of land in the middle east. Its desolate. But then How do you explain whats hppening there. People are speaking Gods language there. They are studying scriputres. Some are looking forward to their Messiah, some already know Him. Why would God forsake His people? I dont think He has.

If my people, who are called by my name, turn from their wicked ways and humble themselves and pray, then I will from heaven I will forgive their sin and I will heal their land.

Do you see that right now? Go to israel, look at the land. Is it the overflowing with milk and honey? Hardly! Its divded, people are still fighting, Its still got a long way to go.

I do believe He has a heart for His people, ALL His people, and He has provided them salvation in their Messiah, who has come. He now transforms us to bring them this message. He has forsaken no one, but all have to come through the narrow gate. Everything that's going on in Israel is for the exact same reason that anything happens anywhere, rejection of God. Look I'm just a completely fallible riffraff that God changed for His glory, but I'm still a complete fool. After this week I am knock back down to square 1, and rightly so. I teach and speak in His name, and I have allowed myself to get arrested for possession of less than 20 grams of weed, something I could have been doing completely legally, but look at the hypocritical stumbling block, that's now not even aloud to minister to the guys in jail I was talking to (the most painful part of the whole thing). I never knew how painful a spiritual mistake could be, not to mention the embarrassment and shame having to face my wife, kids, church, and most of all my Savior whom I have to face after being banned from speaking His truth to others. There was SO MUCH more than justifying "my" habits with God. He has shown me so clearly that I was thinking was too small and totally selfishly, it's not an "only personal" thing at all, it's about Him, His kingdom, and all for His glory. We are the tools He uses to do this, and this is the most precious thing any of us could ever have, but He is just so much bigger.

I believe all the Jews will come to Him along with the Muslims, Hindus, atheist, Buddhist, and everything else as well. I know it's insane to believe this when I look around today, but I don't watch the news. I watch the people around me, the power of God to work in the men I visited in jail, that I now can't, ALL my fault, and I am still dealing with the confessing part of it, but I just want Him, and I believe He is already King right now and I will proclaim it this way, and thank Him for this lesson now, before I had a chance to really disgrace Him name among the lost.

Anyway No I don't believe He has forsaken Israel, and I think it's all going under Him. I'm still growing and studying everyday though.

 

[maxwel]

Not from any teacher but i can confirm that finally i have the understanding. Struggled with many positions for so many years and gave up - that's when i started getting the understanding.

Simple- The question is in Daniel and the answer is also in Daniel but the key ingredient to calculating it is in Revelation.
The issue has never been identifying a person but understanding the times (timeline), those waiting to identify a person or see certain features have already missed the mark by far, we are deep into these things, very deep, we are almost done with.

Like the angel in Daniel said, "..it shall be 2300 evenings and mornings and everything shall be restored..". 2300 AD it is, trust me.

Sole Proponent:

So you came up with this ON YOUR OWN,
and you are the ONLY PERSON ON EARTH WHO BELIEVES THIS "FORMULA"?

If I were the only person, living or dead, who EVER believed a particular thing about a book that's been studied for thousands of years, by BILLIONS of people, and by many of the greatest minds who've ever lived...

I might be prone to rethink my position.



Here is your formula, for those who missed it.

"The 3 1/2 years are not literal years, it is an earthly equation that can be solved by man using normal earthly Mathematical laws- that's why Rev 13 says "..it is the number of a man...let he who has wisdom count/calculate the number of the beast..".
It doesn't mean that it is a man (flesh & bones), it simply means it is a timeline calculable using normal earthly mathematical equation.

And the equation posed is this: the beast is given authority for 3.5 years yet the number of the beast is 666, so the total authority in years is 3.5 x 666 =2331 years.
Convert it back to our calendar years and you'll get 2297.49 years. But it is somehow complex than this, you need to go back to Daniel and familiarize yourself with the 70 week prophesy and the 2300 days prophesy. This 2297.49 years are added to 3.5 years ( a time in the 1st century when the antichrist was being held back so that the gospel is preached by the apostles- it is complicated more than i can explain here)- 2297.49 + 3.5 = 2300.99, this marks the end of age as per Daniel's prophesy."


..
A few specific thoughts:

1. I could mention your complete absence of logical principles:
You make entirely ad hoc and arbitrary connections between "dots" that have no causal relationship to each other, and which don't even share a categorical relationship. There is no logic employed here at all. You just whimsically join things together, things which have no logical connection whatsoever, because you simply WANT to.

You just cram things together, willy nilly, without any concern in the slightest for what the text actually SAYS.

2. I could also mention a complete absence of hermeneutic principles:
You give words and phrases completely arbitrary definitions without consulting the text, and you overlook explanations of things which are sometimes included right in the immediate passage.

You give no concern to definitions or explanations given right in the context of the passages... you literally just IGNORE what the bible says, and re-imagine your own Bible.


Conclusion:

1. This is virtually too silly to bother explaining... it's just goofy.

2. Even if you heard a voice from heaven, it wouldn't have spoken in ridiculous irrational gobbledy gook; God always speaks to man in logical sentences that make logical sense, and which rely on predictable conventions like grammar and context... because God actually wants us to UNDERSTAND him.

3. Even when orthodox Christians disagree, we still try to use grammar, context, and logic, to best understand what is ACTUALLY SAID... not to circumvent what is said by dreaming up ridiculous fantasies from thin air.

..

 

[maxwel]

Addendum:

Noose, I didn't write everything above because I dislike you.
You may be a perfectly nice person.

I wrote the above because your eschatology is completely crazy, and sounds like it's coming from someone suffering from schizophrenia. So, although you may be a very nice person, I would feel bad if anyone took your eschatology seriously.

..

 

[Lanolin]

I do believe He has a heart for His people, ALL His people, and He has provided them salvation in their Messiah, who has come. He now transforms us to bring them this message. He has forsaken no one, but all have to come through the narrow gate. Everything that's going on in Israel is for the exact same reason that anything happens anywhere, rejection of God. Look I'm just a completely fallible riffraff that God changed for His glory, but I'm still a complete fool. After this week I am knock back down to square 1, and rightly so. I teach and speak in His name, and I have allowed myself to get arrested for possession of less than 20 grams of weed, something I could have been doing completely legally, but look at the hypocritical stumbling block, that's now not even aloud to minister to the guys in jail I was talking to (the most painful part of the whole thing). I never knew how painful a spiritual mistake could be, not to mention the embarrassment and shame having to face my wife, kids, church, and most of all my Savior whom I have to face after being banned from speaking His truth to others. There was SO MUCH more than justifying "my" habits with God. He has shown me so clearly that I was thinking was too small and totally selfishly, it's not an "only personal" thing at all, it's about Him, His kingdom, and all for His glory. We are the tools He uses to do this, and this is the most precious thing any of us could ever have, but He is just so much bigger.

I believe all the Jews will come to Him along with the Muslims, Hindus, atheist, Buddhist, and everything else as well. I know it's insane to believe this when I look around today, but I don't watch the news. I watch the people around me, the power of God to work in the men I visited in jail, that I now can't, ALL my fault, and I am still dealing with the confessing part of it, but I just want Him, and I believe He is already King right now and I will proclaim it this way, and thank Him for this lesson now, before I had a chance to really disgrace Him name among the lost.

Anyway No I don't believe He has forsaken Israel, and I think it's all going under Him. I'm still growing and studying everyday though.

Well thats good because He still cares about them even though many still reject Him and hes going to make good His promises. Its just a long time waiting for everyone to repent thats all. But great that Gentiles have the chance to come in to the kingdom, gentiles like us. Not that i define myself by that but I certainly dont live in Jerusalem and am not anywhere near the Holy land, which as prophesised is going to be the centre of everything. Its not like I watch the news everyday though but God does want us to pray for peace in Jersualem.

The parable of the vineyard owner who went away is quite pertanent to whats going on. He comes back and finds out that his teanants arent looking after His land. He sends his servants bit they beat up his servants. He even sends his son to them but they beat up and kill his son! His son was meant to be heir to the vineyard. Anyway the owner decides to give the land to some other tenants. See Luke 20:9-19 and the same parable told in the other gospels.

I think both camps amills and premills misunderstand each other and both seem to claim they are missing something, the amill that the premils arent spiritual and the premills that the amills arent cognizant of the promised manifestation of miracles. I think thats a pity for both camps because they kind of forget God in all of this and cling to their own limited interpetation of what God has said and revealed.

 

[Noose]

Sole Proponent:

.
Group mentality!! it must be correct if it is held by a certain group or by people who have spent years studying the bible. How true is this statement? when it comes to matters God, no amount of studying or groups would bring the true interpretation of the scriptures.

A few specific thoughts:

1. I could mention your complete absence of logical principles:
You make entirely ad hoc and arbitrary connections between "dots" that have no causal relationship to each other, and which don't even share a categorical relationship. There is no logic employed here at all. You just whimsically join things together, things which have no logical connection whatsoever, because you simply WANT to.

You just cram things together, willy nilly, without any concern in the slightest for what the text actually SAYS.

2. I could also mention a complete absence of hermeneutic principles:
You give words and phrases completely arbitrary definitions without consulting the text, and you overlook explanations of things which are sometimes included right in the immediate passage.

You give no concern to definitions or explanations given right in the context of the passages... you literally just IGNORE what the bible says, and re-imagine your own Bible.


Conclusion:

1. This is virtually too silly to bother explaining... it's just goofy.

2. Even if you heard a voice from heaven, it wouldn't have spoken in ridiculous irrational gobbledy gook; God always speaks to man in logical sentences that make logical sense, and which rely on predictable conventions like grammar and context... because God actually wants us to UNDERSTAND him.

3. Even when orthodox Christians disagree, we still try to use grammar, context, and logic, to best understand what is ACTUALLY SAID... not to circumvent what is said by dreaming up ridiculous fantasies from thin air.

..

Like i said, it is way deeper than the superficial answer i gave and even if i try to explain it, you wouldn't understand.
It all comes back to Daniel and this is what a fantasy looks like; anything that doesn't perfectly line up with Daniel's 70 week prophesy right from king Nebuchadnezzar to the coming of Messiah to the setting up of the abomination in the middle of the last week and remaining half of the last week; if any theory doesn't line up with these weeks then it is a fantasy.

I challenge you to show me anything that lines perfectly with the 70 week prophesy.

 

[Ahwatukee]

What about the time when Jesus actually has put everything under his feet and takes up residence in the New Jerusalem. Just wondering what you believe about that, whther He still has a heart for his homeland and chosen people. So e people say well the narion of isrel isnt that its been 'replaced' and that covenant was completely broken. That promised land is not that piece of land in the middle east. Its desolate. But then How do you explain whats hppening there. People are speaking Gods language there. They are studying scriputres. Some are looking forward to their Messiah, some already know Him. Why would God forsake His people? I dont think He has.

If my people, who are called by my name, turn from their wicked ways and humble themselves and pray, then I will from heaven I will forgive their sin and I will heal their land.

Do you see that right now? Go to israel, look at the land. Is it the overflowing with milk and honey? Hardly! Its divded, people are still fighting, Its still got a long way to go.

Hello Lanolin!

Actually, Israel is flourishing. Prior to it becoming a nation, it was a desolate place and nothing but desert. But now it is a flourishing Eden, just as God said it would after He brought them back into the land. They just celebrated their 70th anniversary as a nation and President Trump was the only president to not sign the waiver, recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.

Seventy 'sevens' (seventy seven year periods) were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem. (Dan.9:24-27)

Seven 'sevens (49 years) = Rebuild and restore Jerusalem

Sixty two 'sevens" (434 years) = At the end of which the Messiah was cut off (Christ crucified)

One set of seven remains, which God is about to fulfill with Israel. But first the Lord will appear and gather His church, after that, the last seven will commence.

Jesus said, "I will build my church and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Well, the church is still in the process of being built. Once it has been completed, the Lord will descend and will gather His church (John 14:1-3, 1 Thess.4:13-18). Once the church has been gathered, then that ruler, the antichrist will establish his seven year agreement, which is that last seven years and God will pick up right where He left off with Israel complete with a temple and sacrifices. This program with Israel has nothing to do with the church.

PS God will also have the first fruits out of Israel, a 144,000, 12,000 from each tribe who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah during that last seven years.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I thought he was bound though? still blinding the minds of unbelievers, deceiving the nations! OY VEY!

Ever heard of hitler? stalin? And all the saranic influences over in the middle east decieved by satan and murdering Gods children?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't think it's as "idiotic" to believe the end of the "AGE" came in 70 A.D. when God's judgement fell on the covenant breakers in Jerusalem, and He took His house off the face of the earth forever doing away with the sacrificial system and the way laid down to point to Jesus. That age is done. Is it not? You can claim only idiots believe different than you, but I think the WHOLE bible fit's with this view so much better than the "waiting for Him to bring His kingdom" view. I believe He brought it and I’m in it right now, if that makes me an idiot then guilty as charged.

The end of the age is completed by the return of Christ, even he said as such, all of daniels prophesies concerning the gentile rulers over jerusalem would also come to an end with the return of christ, and as paul said, it will not be until the end of that age that Israel repents and is saved, but until then, there will be a remnant, in the mean time, us gentiles should not be puffed up in pride.

 

[Hevosmies]

I want to ask about this here: @Journeyman @Jimbone @garee @everyoneelse

2 Thessalonians 2:4, how do you guys see this in the amil view? Is this future to you, or past? Is this one man or many men? Is this the pope as the reformers said?

 

[Jimbone]

I want to ask about this here: @Journeyman @Jimbone @garee @everyoneelse

2 Thessalonians 2:4, how do you guys see this in the amil view? Is this future to you, or past? Is this one man or many men? Is this the pope as the reformers said?

Well since there has to have been God's true temple on earth, I would have to go "past". As far as who this scripture spoke of, I think a strong case can be made for Titus, and his son after him. As far as the details of exactly how this happen, and who was what I don't know really, I wasn't there. Let me ask you, are we waiting for Him to bring His kingdom still?

 

[Jimbone]

The end of the age is completed by the return of Christ, even he said as such, all of daniels prophesies concerning the gentile rulers over jerusalem would also come to an end with the return of christ, and as paul said, it will not be until the end of that age that Israel repents and is saved, but until then, there will be a remnant, in the mean time, us gentiles should not be puffed up in pride.

I agree, but honestly don't understand the "puffed up with pride" part. Was that directed towards me, if so what part of my comment came across as prideful? If not I'm sorry for misunderstanding, it's not a big deal or anything, I just couldn't understand why you added that. Bottom line I agree 100%, pride is a sin, but I don't see at all how my comment came of at all prideful, so I just wanted clarification.

 

[Jimbone]

Ever heard of hitler? stalin? And all the saranic influences over in the middle east decieved by satan and murdering Gods children?

You ever heard of modern medicine, modern food production, worldwide communication, unlimited information at our fingertips anytime. Yes I know men are evil, but if you for 1 second, even in the face of all the evil, think the world we live in is not better now than it was 2,000 years ago then I don't know what to tell you. Yes because of worldwide communication mans evil is more visible, but as a whole you can't deny the world is getting better, and all going under Him. In my understanding.

 

[Hevosmies]

Well since there has to have been God's true temple on earth, I would have to go "past". As far as who this scripture spoke of, I think a strong case can be made for Titus, and his son after him. As far as the details of exactly how this happen, and who was what I don't know really, I wasn't there. Let me ask you, are we waiting for Him to bring His kingdom still?

Thanks for your question.

I believe God's kingdom already CAME. I believe in the 'ALREADY, not yet' model.

Meaning: Jesus and John the Baptist said the kingdom of God is at hand, repent.

The kingdom came at PENTECOST i believe.

Yet it will completely CONSUME the worldly kingdoms we have today, ONCE Jesus returns.

do you agree? Sorry if my answer sounds like a political one, but its not! Here is an article on it: https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/is-the-kingdom-present-or-future

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Has any group benefited from the we will be raptured doctrine?
Long term it seems to make a mockery of scripture.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Has any group benefited from the we will be raptured doctrine?
Long term it seems to make a mockery of scripture.

They will benefit as soon as the Lord appears and gathers us.

It is a promise of the Lord, which scripturally takes place prior to God's wrath taking place, because Jesus already suffered God's wrath on behalf of every believer and therefore we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

What's more, is that we are told to look forward to it and speed its coming

 

[Hevosmies]

Has any group benefited from the we will be raptured doctrine?
Long term it seems to make a mockery of scripture.

Lets be real here: Has anyone ever benefited from ANY eschatological position?

Not really. I could argue for positives/negatives of all views.

As for the pre-trib rapture, it can go one of two ways: It can have a purifying effect since people want to be sure to make it in the rapture and not be left behind and create a sense of urgency in evangelizing people since the rapture could take place at any time. Or alternatively it can cause "rapturitis" where its all end times videos, devil on every corner, no need to bother with evangelizing since its the laodecian church era so nobody will get saved anyway, lets just weather the storm wait for the rapture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I agree, but honestly don't understand the "puffed up with pride" part. Was that directed towards me, if so what part of my comment came across as prideful? If not I'm sorry for misunderstanding, it's not a big deal or anything, I just couldn't understand why you added that. Bottom line I agree 100%, pride is a sin, but I don't see at all how my comment came of at all prideful, so I just wanted clarification.

The puffed up part was the warning to gentiles

Rom 11: 25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You ever heard of modern medicine, modern food production, worldwide communication, unlimited information at our fingertips anytime. Yes I know men are evil, but if you for 1 second, even in the face of all the evil, think the world we live in is not better now than it was 2,000 years ago then I don't know what to tell you. Yes because of worldwide communication mans evil is more visible, but as a whole you can't deny the world is getting better, and all going under Him. In my understanding.

The text says satan will be prevented from decieving nations, nothing in this post shows satan is not currently decieving nations.

The nations i spoke of were, are being decieved by satan, proving he is not yet bound,

 

[tanakh]

The kingdom of God doesn't come with observable signs, it is and was and is to come.

Yes
Jesus said

The kingdom of heaven is within you
The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed
The kingdom is like leaven

Daniel

The kingdom is like a stone that strikes Empires and becomes a great Mountain that fills the earth