Eternal security is obedience

Grace777x70 · Mar 9, 2016

Because the Old man and the flesh are 2 different things. Being "in the flesh" is a condition. Being" in the Spirit" is a condition.

The former manner of living is still in the flesh ( which is not the old man ).

Romans 8:9 (NASB)
[SUP]9 [/SUP] However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

How can the old man be alive when he died with Christ? Post #372 has all the scriptural backup for the old man is dead. There is no doubt at all that the old man is dead but the flesh is still here.

All of us have the flesh to content with and we will until we leave this body that houses it...( hopefully that will be soon! )

Did you have a chance to view the video ( post #371 ) I put up about the outer man and inner man yet?..it will help with this...

Maybe this other video might help as well.

[video=youtube;Bi-oq5qBkWA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bi-oq5qBkWA[/video]

peacefulbeliever said:

peacefulbeliever · Mar 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

There are many names for the "flesh" in scripture - flesh, natural man, old man, the heart, i.e. the natural heart which is "deceitful above all things (Jer. 17:9), also out of the heart proceed evil thoughts (Matt. 15:19); and the carnal mind.
Now when I was baptized into Christ I was baptized into his death . . . buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead - I too am raised and I can walk in newness of life . . . Did my body of flesh actually DIE? or was my baptism symbolic of my old man dying and me being raised?

All of us have the flesh to content with and we will until we leave this body that houses it...( hopefully that will be soon! )

Click to expand...

If we have the flesh to deal with - we have the old man for from the flesh comes the characteristics of the old man - they are one and the same.Just as we cannot separate the characteristics of the Spirit from the Spirit - we cannot separate the characteristics of the flesh from the old man.The "characteristics" of the old man, to put it simply, would be the "fruit" of the flesh . . . the "characteristics" of the new man would be the "fruit of the Spirit".

No, I didn't watch the video (#371) and to be honest I probably won't nor the one above. I don't do videos (unless it's music) . . . just a quirk of mine.

Grace777x70 · Mar 9, 2016

I will speak to the heart first..we have a New Cvoneant now in Christ and thus we have a new heart so Jer. 17:9 is not relevant for us today as Christians ..just like when David say to "Take not your Holy Spirit from me" ..that is not relevant for us in the New Covenant either..

The believers new heart in Christ created in righteousness and holiness: First it was prophesied in the Old Testament.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NASB)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone ( old man ) from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. ( new man in Christ )

Romans 2:29 (NASB)
[SUP]29 [/SUP] But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
By grace we have been given a new heart that is obedient.

Romans 6:17 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

God cleaned house and moved in. God will not dwell in unrighteousness. God through the Holy Spirit is in our inner man now.

Ephesians 3:16-17 (NASB)
[SUP]16 [/SUP] that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
[SUP]17 [/SUP] so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,

God sealed us and gave us the Holy Spirit in our new hearts.

2 Corinthians 1:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

We have the Spirit of God's Son in our hearts now.Galatians 4:6 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

God has cleansed our hearts by faith.Acts 15:8-9 (NASB)
[SUP]8 [/SUP] "And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP] and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

We love from our hearts now as it is pure.1 Timothy 1:5 (NASB)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

2 Timothy 2:22 (NASB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. ( this is a believer in Christ..hang around them )

1 Peter 3:4 (NASB)
[SUP]4 [/SUP] but let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God.

There are more but this should work to show that the believer has a new heart in Christ.

We still have the flesh to deal with in our bodies and if we are admonished to not to yield to that...but all that is a different subject.

peacefulbeliever said:

Grace777x70 · Mar 9, 2016

I understand about not wanting to watching videos and that's cool..

...it would just really make this pretty clear...but I understand....sometimes good teaching helps to cement things in our spirit.

There is only the "works" of the flesh.....the Spirit bears "fruit"..2 different modes of action.

I think the confusion comes with the terminology used.

For one thing....if the "old man" is not dead....then Christ has not died because we ( ie..our old man ) died with Him on the cross.

We become new creations in Christ with a "new man" created in righteousness and holiness. Eph 4:24

We still have the flesh which is the left over after the "old man" died. This is where I believe the confusion comes in with people. It is unfortunate that the NIV bible had translated "flesh" as the "sinful nature" which has for years thrown people off. I believe in their new edition of the bible they have fixed this mis-translation.

The term "flesh" is used 3 different ways in the NT.

1) the carnal ways of thinking and actions left over from the prior manner of living from the old man - this is where renewing our minds comes in

2) it is used when talking about self-effort

3) and sometimes it just means the "fleshly-meat - the body" itself

In this "flesh" there is the "power of sin".....these two are in cahoots together. Flesh and the power of sin in working together know what "works" with you in the past. The power of sin knows your history and what works with you. Whatever areas in the past that you have struggled with is what the "sin in your flesh" will be bringing to you in your mind.

The power of sin says you are guilty and worthless but the Holy Spirit in your new man says you are the righteousness of God in Christ, you are loved..etc. You are in Christ now.

The flesh is ways to think and act that "were" the manner of living we are and were used to left over from the old man. ( Eph 4:22 - in reference to your former manner of living )

Romans 7:17-18 (NASB)
[SUP]17 [/SUP] So now, no longer am I ( the new man ) the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me (in my body which has the flesh with the power of sin in it ).
[SUP]18 [/SUP] For I know that nothing good dwells in me (my body which has the flesh in it ), that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me ( in my new man ), but the doing of the good is not.

Romans 7:20-23 (NASB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] But if I am doing the very thing I ( new man ) do not want, I ( new man ) am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me ( in the flesh).
[SUP]21 [/SUP] I find then the principle that evil is present in me (new man ), the one who wants to do good.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, ( new man),
[SUP]23 [/SUP] but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.

italics = my words

Then Romans chapter 8 comes in and shows us how to walk according to the Spirit and not the flesh to put to death the deeds of the body ( flesh in the body ). Rom 8:13
We are not fighting a civil war within ourselves ( the flesh and the power of sin do not belong to our new nature which in Christ. ). Jesus said " A house divided will not stand."

As long as we are on this earth and in this body we will have to contend with the world, the flesh and the devil. The good news is that our Lord Jesus Christ has defeated all 3 of them!

But the great thing is we can just agree to disagree too!..We will know all about it when we see the Lord! Praise God!

peacefulbeliever said:

peacefulbeliever · Mar 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

I just disagree with you - that's all. The old man is the flesh . . . the old man's characteristics come from the flesh.

Sin is the old nature. . . sin is the old man's characteristics. We put off the old and put on the new to overcome the sin that besets us. We are justified in Christ but we still feel the workings/characteristics of the old nature and we experience the conflict between that old nature and the new nature.

I posted scripture concerning the old and new nature and how the old nature stems from the flesh and will carry with it characteristics of the flesh - that which is born of the flesh is flesh . . . Galatians 5 goes into the works of the flesh: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings . . . Ephesians 4 list some of the characteristics of the old man that we are to put off - corrupt according to deceitful lust, lying, bitterness, wrath, anger, clamour, evil speaking, malice, blasphemy . . . Pretty much sounds like the old man carries around the works of the flesh . . . (what I am calling "characteristics/fruits")

and how the new nature stems from the new creation, Spirit, that God created in us and that new nature (the new man) will carry with it the characteristics of the Spirit - that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. . . characteristics of the new man - put on bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, forbearing one another, and forgiving one another and above all put on love . . . makes me think about the fruit of the Spirit - love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance . . . pretty simple.

Grace777x70 · Mar 9, 2016

I agree with most of what you are saying..well except the old man by scripture is definitely dead and died with Christ..but we'll forget that part as we know for sure that the flesh is still with us wanting to do "its" desires which war against the true us in Christ. ( as Rom 7:14-222 talk about )

So, do you think from scripture we have a new heart now which what that post was showing through scripture?..in post #383

It's ok to disagree on the old man...as we do agree that walking according to the spirit will put to death the works/deeds of the flesh..now that is the important part for sure!....

peacefulbeliever said:

Bookends · Mar 9, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

I'm no expert in it, but perhaps faith is obtained by the obedient act of believing God. First we obey God in agreeing that we are sinners in need of a savior and that God provided that savior as a gift, our faith is a bi-product by believing what God told us to do, the major act that God requires.

I know I don't obey God perfectly, it's my desire to, but I know I must obey in this one thing. Our faith grows by our obedience, and our obedience grows by our strengthening faith.

Romans 16
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel,the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, (commands are to be obeyed) so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith(Obedience of believing the gospel-> Faith -->developing and continuing obedience)—27 to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen (for His glory, not our own).

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Now I'll let you all pick my thoughts apart, it's ok, it won't hinder my faith or salvation if I'm wrong, for I'm solely dependent on Him. I don't have to be right.

Bookends · Mar 9, 2016

Here is something else to consider; (sounds reasonable to me)...

https://hopefaithprayer.com/faith-obedience-to-gods-word-consistency-in-our-walk/

peacefulbeliever · Mar 9, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

leb:

inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
1. inner part, midst
  1. midst (of things)
  2. heart (of man)
  3. soul, heart (of man)
  4. mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
  5. inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
  6. conscience
  7. heart (of moral character)
  8. as seat of appetites
  9. as seat of emotions and passions
  10. as seat of courage

Well, according to the definition - I would say yes our heart is changed from desiring the sinful, pleasurable things of the world to desiring godly things - setting our affections on things above. The one definition that I find hard is "mind" because our mind is where most of the battle is fought between walking by the flesh or walking by the Spirit. IMHO . .

Grace777x70 · Mar 10, 2016

Yes.."leb" is the Hebrew word for heart and in the Old Testament, man did not have a new heart until Christ died and rose again to give us a new heart. We do have a new inner man of the heart which is incorruptible as Peter says. The NT greek separates the heart and mind. It appears that the mind is part of the soul. The spirit and the soul are close and heb 4:12 says they can be divided out with the word of God.

In the New Covenant "mind" is a completely different word in Greek then for heart or for our re-created spirit - which has been created in righteousness and holiness.

I agree ...The "renewing" of the mind is what is needed the most now so that we can get our thinking in line with what the Lord has done for us in His finished work

I agree that the true battle is in the mind. This renewing of our mind saves our souls ( mind, will, emotions ) in this present world. Perhaps the heart is when our spirit and soul are in agreement to the truth of who we are in Christ because of the new creation in Christ. At any rate the heart, soul, and spirit are closely aligned with each other.

It was nice chatting with you about this. Bless you and have a great day!

peacefulbeliever said:

eternally-gratefull · Mar 10, 2016

Bookends said:

I do not need to tear it apart. I just thought it sounded odd, and wanted to share my thoughts, I hope you did not think I was tearing you down.

When you say things are equal, it means no matter which way you put them, they are equal.

People want to preach obedience equals faith. I think that is what gets so many in trouble.

Noah did not build the ark, so he could have faith, He had faith "trusted God" and as a result of this faith, against all odds, he built the ark.

It sort of makes sense when you said if you obeyed God in belief, this will cause you to have faith, And would say if this is what you meant, and only this, then yeah I could agree,

Except I can believe in God, and even believe Jesus walked the earth and died on the cross. Yet have no faith in him at all. James 2

eternally-gratefull · Mar 10, 2016

Bookends said:

I look at faith this way,

Faith is the power that causes the whole process to work in tandem.

God told noah, I am going to flood the earth (Noah had probably never even seen a rain storm, let alone even a local flood) I want you to build this massive ship, and when I am ready, I will save you and your family, and I am going to take two of each kind of animal and put them on this ark, Because mankind has gotten so evil, I am going to wipe them off the face of the earth, and in doins so, I will kill all flesh that is not on the ark.

So, Using the word, we know that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

1. The words in red were the word of God.
2. Noah heard the words of God
3. Noah had to make a choice, I trust God in what he says (in the greek, trust or faith means to have an assurance that the person will do what he said, A confidence that the person is trustworthy, and a Trust in the one making the promise. ) Or I do not trust him.

Noah may believe God may do what he said he would do. And may start what God asked, But belief is not enough, All th epain and struggle would not sustain a person who only has belief that a person will or can do what he said he would do. And Noah would have fallen away and never finished the task.

If noah did not believe anythign God said, He never would have started.

If Noah had FAITH in what God said, (He knew God was trustworthy, He knew God could do what he said he would do, And he knew God would carry out what he said he would do, )This faith would empower him to not only start the project, But carry the project out to completion. Because faith does not waver, Faith trusts, it is not weak (if put in the right thing) and Noah's faith was in God, who would never let him down (God says faith of a mustard seed can move mountains, so faith is very powerful tool when used properly and in someone who is trustworthy and can carry out what he promised)

so we see, Faith did not equal obedience, Faith empowered obedience,

Abraham is another great example of faith.

Abraham, Knowing God was able to raise his son from the dead in order to keep Gods promise to him, that this son would do great things, Offered his son up as a sacrifice (was obedient to God)

again, No belief in God, Abraham would not have done it

If abraham only believed in God. but did not trust him, He never owuld have attempted to obey God and sacrifice his son, He probably would do what alot of us do. and just complained until God said, ok, you do not have to.

Bookends · Mar 10, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

I do not need to tear it apart. I just thought it sounded odd, and wanted to share my thoughts, I hope you did not think I was tearing you down.

When you say things are equal, it means no matter which way you put them, they are equal.

People want to preach obedience equals faith. I think that is what gets so many in trouble.

Noah did not build the ark, so he could have faith, He had faith "trusted God" and as a result of this faith, against all odds, he built the ark.

It sort of makes sense when you said if you obeyed God in belief, this will cause you to have faith, And would say if this is what you meant, and only this, then yeah I could agree,

Except I can believe in God, and even believe Jesus walked the earth and died on the cross. Yet have no faith in him at all. James 2

More likely what I meant was that real faith produces obedience, they go together, you can't have one without the other.

mailmandan · Mar 12, 2016

eternally-gratefull said:

Amen! Unlike saving faith in Christ, shallow temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have believed for a while, yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved?" His heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not good, being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. People who "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

Bookends · Mar 12, 2016

I would just like to share Psalm 15 with you all. May we prayerfully ponder it and God give us understanding:

The Character of Those Who May Dwell with the Lord

A Psalm of David.

15 Lord, who may abide in Your tabernacle?
Who may dwell in Your holy hill?

2 He who walks uprightly,
And works righteousness,
And speaks the truth in his heart;
3 He who does not backbite with his tongue,
Nor does evil to his neighbor,
Nor does he take up a reproach against his friend;
4 In whose eyes a vile person is despised,
But he honors those who fear the Lord;
He who swears to his own hurt and does not change;
5 He who does not put out his money at usury,
Nor does he take a bribe against the innocent.

He who does these things shall never be moved.

Grace777x70 · Mar 12, 2016

Thank God for the cross of our Lord Jesus and that He is our righteousness now. We walk in Him in the New Covenant. Every scripture you see in the OT that says righteous.....that is you now in the Lord Jesus because of His finished work....let's believe what the Lord says about us and our outward lives will fall in line by His life being manifested in and through us.

1 Corinthians 1:30-31 (NASB)
[SUP]30 [/SUP] But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
[SUP]31 [/SUP] so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Let's walk out who we are now in the Lord.

Colossians 2:6-10 (NASB)
[SUP]6 [/SUP] Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,
[SUP]7 [/SUP] having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

[SUP]8 [/SUP] See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP] For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;

PeterJens · Mar 12, 2016

Grace777x70 said:

The above is wishful thinking. Imagine I told you to walk all you have to do is get up and walk. It will just happen. No training or practicing, no telling your muscles to fire or learning how to put your weight. You would say I am nuts.
It is why children start with learning about their hands, grabbing things and it slowly progresses upwards.

As babes in Christ we learn how to forgive, how to reach out, how to be vulnerable, how to love, how to be honest. It is a conscious choice. God gives us the healing, applies the guidance, the support, the encouragement and the love. Our faith is reckoned as righteousness. We have entered into this faith through Jesus, the perfect sacrifice for sins.

He is the one teaching us and helping us grow through the Holy Spirit. Teaching by the Holy Spirit is His ministry.
Now many know Jesus merely as a distant help, a formula they do not quite understand, or why the cross was needed at all. But it is this love that drove Him to the cross is our healing, His forgiveness because we crucified Him with our sin and blindness, but he forgave and rose Him from the dead, victorious, to be our inheritance in the faith. So learn how to walk, and in your obeying let the Lord heal you as you call out to Him. The law is just a measure of issues, not solutions. The solutions are in Christ and communion and reaching out for healing and help. We are a broken people without communion, but healed and made whole by walking with our King and Lord, the servant to all.

Chuckt · Mar 12, 2016

PeterJens said:

Psalm 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

God has magnified his word above His name so that is the medium by which He works.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

You can pretty much underline the whole verse of Isaiah 55:11.

Do you want to know what God's will is? Then it is found in the Bible.

The sheep won't listen to your voice because it isn't God's words:

John 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

And God will only work with His word that you studied:

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So if you don't study the Bible, He has nothing to work with because He honors His word above His name.

If you are reading His word and submitting to His word, God is more likely ready to work with you.
If you are using your ideas then you aren't submitted to Him. You're just hoping that God goes your way and the problem is that God knows our hearts:

Jeremiah 17:9 ¶ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

And I did another study and found that some people operating under the guise of the spirit are really listening to their deceitful hearts.

And if you don't know God's words, I'm going to catch you because I look everything up. So if I catch you, did God say what you are saying? No. The reason God wrote His word down is because people lie.

PeterJens · Mar 12, 2016

Chuckt said:

Amen brother. You have to realise the Word is a sign post, not God himself. If I gave you a book on how to walk, it would be useless unless you start walking. Gods word is not different. Jesus says believe in me to gain eternal life.
Obey my words and you will love me and I will love you. You house will be built upon a rock.
Now obedience takes effort, commitment, dedication, sacrifice, patience, love, faith, hope. So many have said I tried before I met Christ and it was impossible. It is without Christ. But walk in obedience with Christ and He will provide the means, the healing, the victory. It is that simple. We cannot do it alone, only in communion. Walking in the Spirit is doing it with God, living life the way it should be lived.

Look at His word, look at all the Prophets. Elijah was told by God to find a widow who would feed him. He found a woman ready to starve to death, and he applied faith. The oil and flour would not run out. People have told me how to believe for health and wealth by faith, yet these same people seem incapable to believe God will heal their hearts and provide the means to walk according to His word. Strange that.

Chuckt · Mar 12, 2016

PeterJens said:

Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed (the word) into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

The seed is the word of God in this parable and the parable was explained by Jesus.

Eternal security is obedience

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