Eternal security? or loss of salvation? what does the bible really say on these two subjects!

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cv5

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Precisely, they need to show their faith by their works. Without works, their faith is dead. You are repeating what James stated correct?
Absolutely. Of course James means what he says and says what he means. But we need to be very very cautious about getting off track about works. All of a sudden the NUTTERS get control and presto 10% tithes, pillaging widows, Saturday Sabbath keeping and demanding log books of all the hours that you went preaching this week.
 

Sipsey

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Precisely, they need to show their faith by their works. Without works, their faith is dead. You are repeating what James stated correct?
Is works without the attendant faith acceptable? What indeed makes one work acceptable and another not?
 

cv5

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Is works without the attendant faith acceptable? What indeed makes one work acceptable and another not?
Now that is a very relevant question. You turn the question on its head 180° and the answer becomes a lot more clear. And that answer is that faith always comes before works.
 

Sipsey

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Now that is a very relevant question. You turn the question on its head 180° and the answer becomes a lot more clear. And that answer is that faith always comes before works.
I think it may be possible that works may lead one to faith. It seems real faith always produces fruit, but we cannot even take credit for that fruit.
 

Guojing

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Is works without the attendant faith acceptable? What indeed makes one work acceptable and another not?
No, you had to believe what God said first, before your works for him will be acceptable. That was the sequence in the OT, as Hebrews 11 gave a number of examples.

But now, God commands us to rest from all works and trust in Jesus's death burial and resurrection for our salvation. So if you do works for salvation, you are not showing faith in God.

The OT saints described in Hebrews 11 did not have that option. Without works, their faith was dead. Noah for example had to build an ark to show his faith to God.

That does not apply to us in the "But now" time period. But it will apply again during the Tribulation, you need to show your faith by not taking the mark of the beast, with the possibility of being beheaded or starve to death for what you believed in.
 

cv5

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I think it may be possible that works may lead one to faith. It seems real faith always produces fruit, but we cannot even take credit for that fruit.
Works may lead to faith? All I can say is that God willing all would come to faith in Christ one way or another and by any means possible.
 

cv5

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No, you had to believe what God said first, before your works for him will be acceptable. That was the sequence in the OT, as Hebrews 11 gave a number of examples.

But now, God commands us to rest from all works and trust in Jesus's death burial and resurrection for our salvation. So if you do works for salvation, you are not showing faith in God.

The OT saints described in Hebrews 11 did not have that option. Without works, their faith was dead. Noah for example had to build an ark to show his faith to God.

That does not apply to us in the "But now" time period. But it will apply again during the Tribulation, you need to show your faith by not taking the mark of the beast, with the possibility of being beheaded or starve to death for what you believed in.
Noah built the ark because he HAD faith in God. He didn't get faith after he built it!
 

Guojing

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Noah built the ark because he HAD faith in God. He didn't get faith after he built it!
That was what I stated. He had to believe there will be a flood first, and then SHOW his faith to God by building that ark.

Without building that ark, he could not show his faith, and his family and him would have perished, as Hebrews 11 stated about him.
 

Sipsey

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That was what I stated. He had to believe there will be a flood first, and then SHOW his faith to God by building that ark.

Without building that ark, he could not show his faith, and his family and him would have perished, as Hebrews 11 stated about him.
The way i see it, they knew the prophesies, they by faith believed that God would send a Savior, we simply believe He did.
 

Guojing

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The way i see it, they knew the prophesies, they by faith believed that God would send a Savior, we simply believe He did.
There is really no need for you to add to Scripture. There was no Savior told to Noah, as recorded in Genesis.

He simply believed God would send a flood. God commanded him to build an ark. He built it, and God saw it as faith.
 

Sipsey

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There is really no need for you to add to Scripture. There was no Savior told to Noah, as recorded in Genesis.

He simply believed God would send a flood. God commanded him to build an ark. He built it, and God saw it as faith.
The Savior is foretold prior to Noah, I’m sure he was aware of mans previous dealings with God.
 

cv5

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There is really no need for you to add to Scripture. There was no Savior told to Noah, as recorded in Genesis.

He simply believed God would send a flood. God commanded him to build an ark. He built it, and God saw it as faith.
Noah may well have been the beneficiary of all kinds of information that is not recorded in Scripture. Noah walked with God Genesis 6:9, which would indicate intimate communion, and certainly privileged information and probably a lot of it, and I do not see why it wouldn't include the revelation of a Savior. There is every reason to believe that Adam was told of the Savior as well. Genesis does not include every single word spoken to Noah. To presume that is absurd. I would hazard to guess that God spoke to Noah as much as he did to Moses! Maybe more. I mean he lived a lot longer didn't he?
 

Guojing

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Noah may well have been the beneficiary of all kinds of information that is not recorded in Scripture. Noah walked with God Genesis 6:9, which would indicate intimate communion, and certainly privileged information and probably a lot of it, and I do not see why it wouldn't include the revelation of a Savior. There is every reason to believe that Adam was told of the Savior as well. Genesis does not include every single word spoken to Noah. To presume that is absurd. I would hazard to guess that God spoke to Noah as much as he did to Moses! Maybe more. I mean he lived a lot longer didn't he?
What you are believing here, even though its not stated in Scripture, is actually the basic teaching of covenant theology, that everyone after Adam was under the covenant of Jesus's finished work at the cross.

Somehow God has informed all of Adam's descendants and those who were saved all understood it, and they put their faith in Jesus.

As I have said, there is a good reason why this teaching is very popular among many Christians.
 

cv5

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What you are believing here, even though its not stated in Scripture, is actually the basic teaching of covenant theology, that everyone after Adam was under the covenant of Jesus's finished work at the cross.

Somehow God has informed all of Adam's descendants and those who were saved all understood it, and they put their faith in Jesus.

As I have said, there is a good reason why this teaching is very popular among many Christians.
That is not in any way a sensible response to the topic. It is silly and quite frankly stupid to think that every single thing God spoke to Noah is recorded in Scripture. Utterly ridiculous.
 

Guojing

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That is not in any way a sensible response to the topic. It is silly and quite frankly stupid to think that every single thing God spoke to Noah is recorded in Scripture. Utterly ridiculous.
If you adopt this perspective, you can add so many things to Scripture. Where does one draw the line here?

Be silent when the Scripture is silent, is the approach I would adopt.
 

cv5

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If you adopt this perspective, you can add so many things to Scripture. Where does one draw the line here?

Be silent when the Scripture is silent, is the approach I would adopt.
That's not my point, but I do agree with it. The discourse with Noah that God recorded in the Scripture is all we are given and evidently all we need to know. And we certainly can't presume to add anything else because there isn't anything else that we know of. On the other hand there is undoubtedly a huge volume of discourse not recorded.
 

Guojing

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That's not my point, but I do agree with it. The discourse with Noah that God recorded in the Scripture is all we are given and evidently all we need to know. And we certainly can't presume to add anything else because there isn't anything else that we know of. On the other hand there is undoubtedly a huge volume of discourse not recorded.
So, according to Scripture, God told Noah that a flood is coming and commanded him to build an ark. (Genesis 6)

Noah showed his faith in God by building one, saving his family and himself (Hebrews 11).

Nothing about Jesus, no death burial resurrection, no promised kingdom.
 

ForestGreenCook

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you must take these passages and put them into the context of the 38 other passages in the new testament that clarly stat that the gift of salvation has strings attached to it. The word 'eternal', like the word 'everlasting', and the word 'forever', have the meaning "a long period of time that will never end as long as certain conditions are met" Jesus said that if you do not forgive: that all that you have been forgiven will become unforgiven. Here is the passage:
Mat 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
Mat 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
Mat 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
Mat 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
Mat 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
Mat 18:35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
This teaching that Jesus gave us states very clearly that if we refuse to forgive those who have wronged us: God will refuse to continue to forgive our past sins! and we well lose the gift of salvation that was given to us! for our continued forgiveness is dependent upon our forgiving others! This is what Jesus taught! I am just simply pointing out to you what Jesus says!

PLease read my study before you open your mouth again and reveal just how ignorant you are concerning what the bible actually says! I say this not to be rude, but rather to try to provoke you to actually read the study of the Holy Spirit and learn what the truth is! (and yes, the study that is attached is the Holy Spirits study! for it is the Holy Spirit who taught it to me over a period of 10 yrs. Much fasting and prayer has gone into this study! )

Have a great day!

David



this has all been explained in greater detail in my study that has been attached to this topic! please read it!
Scriptures prove scriptures. If they all do not harmonize one with the other it means that we have not interpreted them correctly.

The "kingdom of heaven" referenced in Matt 18:23, has reference to Christ's kingdom, which is his church. Jesus is teaching Peter the principles of discipling the church. Christ died as a sacrifice for all of the sins of those that his Father gave him, and said that he would not lose any of them. John 10:28, And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. We will not lose the gift of eternal salvation that was given to us.
 

cv5

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So, according to Scripture, God told Noah that a flood is coming and commanded him to build an ark. (Genesis 6)

Noah showed his faith in God by building one, saving his family and himself (Hebrews 11).

Nothing about Jesus, no death burial resurrection, no promised kingdom.
Oh......I'm inclined to believe that indeed very much was preached about the coming kingdom.

Let me ask you this: Were these few sentences all that Enoch ever preached in his entire lifetime?

(Jude 14-15) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Obviously not. And we can safely assume that Noah, another of God's preachers pre-flood, also had a message of broad scope and voluminous quantity, though we know nothing of it except what has been codified in Scripture.
 

Guojing

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Oh......I'm inclined to believe that indeed very much was preached about the coming kingdom.

Let me ask you this: Were these few sentences all that Enoch ever preached in his entire lifetime?

(Jude 14-15) It was also about these that Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his holy ones, to execute judgment on all and to convict all the ungodly of all their deeds of ungodliness that they have committed in such an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Obviously not. And we can safely assume that Noah, another of God's preachers pre-flood, also had a message of broad scope and voluminous quantity, though we know nothing of it except what has been codified in Scripture.
As I have said, be silent when the scripture is silent. That to me is a good rule to follow