Eternal torment VS Annihilation

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Deade

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#21
God’s Memorials

Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Some things are preserved in God's memory that is just as good as having them on file or archived digitally. His recall is 100%. Here is a case for something in God's memory:

Mark 9:47, 48 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Come on, a maggot that never dies. What is that?

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies. Anyway, hades is finally tossed into the lake of fire. You can't do that with a dwelling place.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know. I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names.

When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.

Eze. 28:14 "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18 "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19 "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.

What about this verse:

Rev. 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

The “are” in many translations was added for ease of reading but changed the meaning. Below is the NIV version which renders it correctly. Where they were cast. Again, this is just another memorial preserved for the future.

NIV Rev. 20:10
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." :cool:
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#22
What about this verse:

Rev. 20:10 “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
The “are” in many translations was added for ease of reading but changed the meaning. Below is the NIV version which renders it correctly. Where they were cast. Again, this is just another memorial preserved for the future.
NIV Rev. 20:10
"And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." :cool:
How does that change the meaning (the "are" to "were" [and neither of them in the Grk, btw])? That is where the beast and the false prophet have been for the past 1000 years (from this perspective in time/chronology), now Satan is joining them and "and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (which phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" always means [what we call] "forever"/eternal/eternal state/eternity/etc: Gal1:5, Phil4:20, for a couple of examples).

This would be at the time slot of the SECOND of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in that passage correlating with Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the [earlier] time of His Second Coming to the earth [for the MK age]).
 

Deade

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#23
How does that change the meaning (the "are" to "were" [and neither of them in the Grk, btw])? That is where the beast and the false prophet have been for the past 1000 years (from this perspective in time/chronology), now Satan is joining them and "and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" (which phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" always means [what we call] "forever"/eternal/eternal state/eternity/etc: Gal1:5, Phil4:20, for a couple of examples).

This would be at the time slot of the SECOND of TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[23] (the FIRST of the TWO "PUNISH" words in that passage correlating with Rev19:19,21/16:14-16/20:5 at the [earlier] time of His Second Coming to the earth [for the MK age]).
No, neither are or were is in the original Greek. It still simply defines where they were cast. If death and the grave are eventually done away with, why are sinners forever dying? (Rev. 20:14). :)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#24
TheDivineWatermark said:
How does that change the meaning (the "are" to "were" [and neither of them in the Grk, btw])?
No, neither are or were is in the original Greek.
That's what I just said. Read it again, if you missed that. :)

It still simply defines where they were cast. If death and the grave are eventually done away with, why are sinners forever dying? (Rev. 20:14). :)
They aren't forever dying. Verse 13 says, "And the sea gave up the dead... and death and hell delivered up the dead..." and verse 14 says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (which "second death" [in/involving "the lake of fire"] I believe refers to separation from God forever). The phrase "the dead," here, I believe refers to the unsaved dead of all times (for the final carrying out of the sentence [at the GWTj]--eternal separation from God [no further "dying" for them; only this existence]).
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#25
^ [continuing my thought] And verse 5 had just said, "But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL..." (so, this is them... who the passage is referring to)
 

Ahwatukee

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#26
I used to be on the Eternal Torment side, but then I decided to rethink my interpretations...
http://www.christianissues.biz/pdf-bin/blogarticles/conditionalimmortality.pdf
Good day LW97,

You should go back to what you first believed. For is not one scripture that would even suggest annihilation.

The words used to describe destruction or perish are apollumi, apoleia and olethros. These words convey the idea of the eternal loss of well being, complete ruination and not annihilation. In fact, apollumi and apoleia come from the base word olethros which is defined as the following:

HELPS Word-studies
3639
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction (apoleia), and many enter through it.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684
apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

Annihilation is no where supported by scripture. It is the translated words "destruction/perish" that is the reason for the confusion.
 

Ahwatukee

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#27
I thin you're little thesis left out how there is going to be greater punishment, and less tolerable for some on Judgement day.

Mark 12:40 New King James Version (NKJV)
40 who devour widows’ houses, and [a]for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive GREATER condemnation.”

Matthew 11:20-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Woe to the Impenitent Cities
20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say to you, it will be MORE TOLERABLE for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum,who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say to you that it shall be MORE TOLERABLE for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Luke 12:47-48 New King James Version (NKJV)
47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY stripes.48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

As far as lost loved ones, first off our full attention is going to be on Jesus in His Presence. Secondly, I think it likely at some point, maybe right after Jesus wipes away our tears at seeing loved ones paying for their sin, we will remember them no more.
Good points PennEd! If everyone was annihilated, then there could be no greater condemnation, because everyone would cease to exist. It is the same with the words "more tolerable" which would infer different levels of conscious punishment. I might also add that it is hard to weep and gnash ones teeth if one doesn't exist.
 

Ahwatukee

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#28
Yes it cannot be any clearer.. Seems those who do not want it to be true will grasp any interpretation of scripture that avoids the clear reading..

Revelation 20: KJV
10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Revelation 20: KJV
13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Both good points Adstar. I would also add the following in support of eternal, conscious punishment:

"and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

It would also be impossible to be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb if the wicked were annihilated.
 

Ahwatukee

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#29
It says Everlasting PUNISHMENT, not PUNISHING
Everlasting punishment carries with it the meaning of on-going punishment. Likewise, the word torment carries the same meaning. We also have the supporting words of everlasting, eternal, forever and ever, and no rest day or night.
 

LW97

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#30
I believe I understand it far better than you do. "eternal destruction" does NOT mean Annihilation but "eternal ruination" or more clearly eternal torment in the Lake of Fire. If you want the truth, you will receive the truth. But it you do not want it you will not receive it.

VINE'S EXPOSITORY DICTIONARY

Destroy, Destroyer, Destruction, Destructive

A — 1: ἀπόλλυμι
(Strong's #622 — Verb — apollumi — ap-ol'-loo-mee )
a strengthened form of ollumi, signifies "to destroy utterly;" in Middle Voice, "to perish." The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37 ; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, Luke 15:4,6 , etc.; the lost son, Luke 15:24 ; of the perishing of food, John 6:27 ; of gold, 1 Peter 1:7 . So of persons, Matthew 2:13 , "destroy;" Matthew 8:25 , "perish;" Matthew 22:7 ; 27:20 ; of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter, Matthew 10:28 ; Luke 13:3,5 ; John 3:16 (ver. 15 in some mss.); 10:28; 17:12; Romans 2:12 ; 1 Corinthians 15:18 ; 2 Corinthians 2:15 , "are perishing;" 2 Corinthians 4:3 ; 2 Thessalonians 2:10 ; James 4:12 ; 2 Peter 3:9 .
We both could be wrong, but I now believe Malachi 4:3 is clear:
"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. "
 

LW97

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#31
Both good points Adstar. I would also add the following in support of eternal, conscious punishment:

"and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

It would also be impossible to be tormented in the presence of the angels and the Lamb if the wicked were annihilated.
It speaks about the period during the tribulation
 

LW97

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#32
Everlasting punishment carries with it the meaning of on-going punishment. Likewise, the word torment carries the same meaning. We also have the supporting words of everlasting, eternal, forever and ever, and no rest day or night.
So does the term "eternal judgement" equal a non-ending judgement or that the judgement's result is forever?
 

LW97

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#33
Good day LW97,

You should go back to what you first believed. For is not one scripture that would even suggest annihilation.

The words used to describe destruction or perish are apollumi, apoleia and olethros. These words convey the idea of the eternal loss of well being, complete ruination and not annihilation. In fact, apollumi and apoleia come from the base word olethros which is defined as the following:

HELPS Word-studies
3639
ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction (apoleia), and many enter through it.

HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684
apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).

684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being

Annihilation is no where supported by scripture. It is the translated words "destruction/perish" that is the reason for the confusion.
Nowhere supported? If we take the Bible literal, it definitely is. Otherwise the soul that sins wouldn't die (Ezekiel 18:4 & 20). The Greek word could mean both. However, we need to study further and look at Hebrews 10:27 which says that the fire will consume the enemies of God. There is NO support whatsoever confirming the immortality of the soul. It is pretty simple if we take scriptural literal. He that hath the son, hath life. He that hath the son, hath not life. It is undeniable that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, but who thinks it can't destroy them? Overall I see that Eternal Torment is a more popular doctrine than Conditional Immortality. Only Universalism (which definitely is heresy) is even more popular. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 confirms that the wicked will be eternally separated from God, and where can that be, when God is omnipresent?
 

LW97

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#34
That's what I just said. Read it again, if you missed that. :)



They aren't forever dying. Verse 13 says, "And the sea gave up the dead... and death and hell delivered up the dead..." and verse 14 says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (which "second death" [in/involving "the lake of fire"] I believe refers to separation from God forever). The phrase "the dead," here, I believe refers to the unsaved dead of all times (for the final carrying out of the sentence [at the GWTj]--eternal separation from God [no further "dying" for them; only this existence]).
Maybe hell is eternal, but if it is, then definitely eternal separation. If hell was no place of separation from God, it wasn't really hell.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#35
Correct, but I am75 % sure that scripture teaches eternal destruction as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9. There are many other Verses too. What part of "the soul that sinneth it shall die" do you not understand?
It is from the word olethros that the word "destruction" is translated from 2 Thess.1-8-9. Below is the definition of the word olethros. Please pay attention to what I have highlighted and underlined in red:

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

It is the translated word "destruction" that give people the idea of annihilation or nonexistence. However, as you can see from the definition above, it specifically states that olethros does not imply extinction (annihilation), but a complete loss of well being (eternal ruination). It is the same with the word apoleia and apollumi which stem from olethros.
 

LW97

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#36
Please do not confuse this with what the JW's teach. They teach that if you die in your sins you will remain dead in the grave. I however believe, that you WILL be resurrected, you WILL be judged and if you are not found in the Book of Life you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be destroyed for all eternity. If the people wouldn't be destroyed there but have eternal life in torment, then there was a way for them to escape.
 

LW97

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Apr 10, 2018
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#37
It is from the word olethros that the word "destruction" is translated from 2 Thess.1-8-9. Below is the definition of the word olethros. Please pay attention to what I have highlighted and underlined in red:

HELPS Word-studies
3639 ólethros (from ollymi/"destroy") – properly, ruination with its full, destructive results (LS). 3639 /ólethros ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

It is the translated word "destruction" that give people the idea of annihilation or nonexistence. However, as you can see from the definition above, it specifically states that olethros does not imply extinction (annihilation), but a complete loss of well being (eternal ruination). It is the same with the word apoleia and apollumi which stem from olethros.
Do you believe hell is eternal separation from God or not? Not all eternal torment believers believe the same thing about it.
 

Ahwatukee

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#38
We both could be wrong, but I now believe Malachi 4:3 is clear:
"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. "

LW97, "they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" is speaking about the killing of the body hence the reference to "ashes" and not the eternal state.
 

Ahwatukee

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#39
It speaks about the period during the tribulation
No, the scripture is describing the eternal state in the lake of fire. How can the smoke of their torment ascend up forever and ever if it was talking about the tribulation period. Once a persons body is dead, that's it for that mortal body.
 

LW97

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#40
No, the scripture is describing the eternal state in the lake of fire. How can the smoke of their torment ascend up forever and ever if it was talking about the tribulation period. Once a persons body is dead, that's it for that mortal body.
So do John and Paul contradict? John says they will be tormented in the PRESENCE of the Lamb. Paul wrote they will be shut away from God's presence.