Eternal torment VS Annihilation

[Ahwatukee]

I quoted your post it said "The only reason that they would do this, is because they believe that they will become nonexistent at the time of death."


You said the only reason but that's okay maybe you wasn't being exact but anyways.

Quote from you:

"if people truthfully believed that they were going to be punished for eternity in separation from God in eternal fire, no one would be committing suicide"

That is the struggle in all individuals. If people truly believed in God who judges the soul then all would be saved. But this isnt a reality and regardless why would suicide lead you to Hell?

Isnt suicide often the side affect of mental health problems?

The only thing that leads someone to Hell is disbelief in the Son as Savior.

Quote:

"Many believe that they are escaping from their troubles in life and the teaching of annihilation as God's punishment can support that."

Can or could support that because either we are talking verifiable facts or opinions?

Neither view to me is harmful. Doesn't matter if annihilation is true and someone does suicide because of that, so what? If it true then there's nothing we can do about it. There has been stories where homosexuals suicided because they felt they couldn't live up to the Lords standard.

Technically if I understand the annihilation doctrine. The suicider who didn't believe in Christ will still experience Hell until the end of time. So technically they would still need to fear hell using your argument.

My point about the entire thing, which you've turned into a ridiculous argument, is that the teaching of annihilation instead of eternal punishment, is that many people would have no problem with that outcome, because we have many who commit suicide thinking that they will cease to exist once the die. I don't care about the reasons of mental disorders and such. I'm talking about those who are having financial, marital, or whatever other problems, not mentally disturbed people. So understand that! I'm not giving a discourse on every reason that people commit suicide.

I'm saying that, because of this idea that a person ceases to exist after the death of the body and people are and have been committing suicide to achieve that, then many would be okay if that was the outcome, because they're already doing that. However, if people truly believed that there is eternal, conscious punishment in separation from God in the lake of fire, then suicide would be much less of an option.

The teaching annihilation/extinction as punishment for sin, would be much more excepting by people because of its finality.

I'm done with this now. It should not have gone this far. So, please don't respond as I will continue with it.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

(Response Below)

In principle, I agree that there are differences of opinion between true believers. However, in many cases, the opponent is attempting to convince the person that the entire system of Christianity is in error, and they are the ones with the true faith. Therefore, the opponent must be opposed.

( Are you referring to anyone on here to justify your opposition?)

As I have mentioned, I belonged to a cultic group with such a mentality. Annihilationism was only one step amongst the pathe of convincing the person that Christianity is in error, and they are teaching the true faith.

( What was their goal in teaching annihilationism? What benefit did it give them? What or who led you to the current truth you believe?)

John Stott and some others do not have this agenda, but many cultists do, and they must be guarded against.

Additionally, those who hold the annihilationist view are viewing Scripture in a very superficial sense. It seems reasonable at a superficial level but it is in error when deeper exegesis is engaged.

( To me either view is plausible because 1 the early church fathers shared different views, the total church history has had the doctrine of Hell change multiple times. The scriptures are not clear enough and good counter arguments can be given for any scripture.

But like I said I see neither view as a threat to either side. Either way God is just. I honestly believe Christians fight over the dumbest stuff outside of soul salvation issues. When I debate atheists or skeptics they see the nasty debate theologians often times have. Each one believes as a zealot that they are correct and given a mission from God to correct all others who believe differently.

All I'm repeating is what Paul had said we better make sure if what we are about to say is good for uplifting a fellow brother or worth the hostility it could bring.

Keep in mind this isnt just directed at you but its directed to me and everyone else. I joined this site many years ago and left due to the ugliness that happens in these threads. I saw many people get banned or leave for that very reason. )

 

[Roughsoul1991]

My point about the entire thing, which you've turned into a ridiculous argument, is that the teaching of annihilation instead of eternal punishment, is that many people would have no problem with that outcome, because we have many who commit suicide thinking that they will cease to exist once the die. I don't care about the reasons of mental disorders and such. I'm talking about those who are having financial, marital, or whatever other problems, not mentally disturbed people. So understand that! I'm not giving a discourse on every reason that people commit suicide.

I'm saying that, because of this idea that a person ceases to exist after the death of the body and people are and have been committing suicide to achieve that, then many would be okay if that was the outcome, because they're already doing that. However, if people truly believed that there is eternal, conscious punishment in separation from God in the lake of fire, then suicide would be much less of an option.

The teaching annihilation/extinction as punishment for sin, would be much more excepting by people because of its finality.

I'm done with this now. It should not have gone this far. So, please don't respond as I will continue with it.

You dont got to continue I just felt your reasoning was weak and needed elaboration. I was hoping for evidence to support that claim.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Again, 'immortal soul/spirit' theology is dualistic neo platonic heresy, it is the heart of paganism, argued from teleology (according to Romanism), as all the pagan heathen religions teach.

Applying the term *mortal* or *immortal* to the immaterial and IMPERISHABLE soul and spirit is false, and leads to a serious misunderstanding. Mortality and immortality applies to the body itself, and while immortality begins at the first resurrection (the resurrection of the saints), the souls and spirits of those who died in Christ are very much awake and alive in Heaven. For proof read Acts 7 and 8 and see what happened at the martyrdom of Stephen (and other passages).

And to call this belief *the heart of paganism* is plain stupid, since the Bible makes it perfectly clear (1) that man consists of spirit, soul, and body, (2) that physical death is the SEPARATION of the soul and spirit from the body, (3) that upon death the body is interred in the grave but the soul and spirit continue in the afterlife, and (4) that the destination of the souls and spirits of the dead is either Heaven or Sheol/Hades.

The KJV translators should never have translated the Hebrew word *Sheol* as *the grave*, since Sheol/Hades is in the heart of the earth (or the lower parts of the earth) according to Christ Himself (who went to Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights). The consistent testimony of the Old Testament is that the dead went to Sheol and remained there is silence, with no knowledge of the affairs of the world. Since the resurrection of Christ, only the unsaved dead go to Sheol/Hades, while all the saints go to Heaven.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

If you followed the thread, you know I am a former annihlationist therefore I have questioned "everything I know". I was brought up by a parent that believed annihilationism from my childhood.

And, I find the annihilationist position to be unwarranted. It is based on a very shallow understanding of biblical language.

Again, I recommend folks read the Biblical Theology Study Bible...if they don't understand cultural, biblical language, they can easily fall for bad doctrine.

 

[mailmandan]

If I could convince folks to do one thing, it would be to buy the NIV Zondervan Biblical Theology Study Bible, edited by DA Carson, and read it through including the notes. This study bible is an education in itself. I know some don't like the NIV but they could read the notes alone with another text such as the NASB or ESV. It is hands-down the best study bible I have read.

Thank you for this information brother! I'm going to look into buying this Study Bible.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

Does anyone here actually believe the culture, the secular, the skeptic, the atheist, the materialist, the naturalist, the socialist, the Marxists, the Nietzsche philosophers, the abortionists, the radical feminists, the Islamist, the persecution of Christians in China, the erasing of absolutes, the denial of universal morality, the lgbtq++, the progressives, does anyone actually believe our world cares about rather Hell is eternal for the living soul or a eternal annihilation for the soul?

Matthew 23:24
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Christians are blind if we are so internally focused. Revivals happened when the majority of Christians prayed and acted as one with one mission to reach the lost.

Maybe if we could stop trying cut each other down over non soul salvation issues then maybe we could actually work together to show the groups above that Christianity is the only way.

We did this starting in the 1920s. We became too focused on the internal. The church checked out. The church was in thought holding the body of Christ captive. The city around the church was left to the idea found in the lie of the separation of church and state.

This is directed at no one individual or even really just this thread but as a warning we need to reevaluate what is truly important with the mindset of what we do today may be all the time we have. Tomorrow is not granted. When will Chrisr return? We dont know and if we fail to focus on the weightier of issues then we fail to reach the cries of the culture.

But but he said, she said. Stop. We can only control ourselves and obviously in the spark of a argument if one person responds kindly or walks away then the argument dies. Maybe many are looking for a argument, idk. Check our motives and ask God is this truly a issue to stumble another brother or sister, is this truly a issue to attack someone's conscience, is this truly a issue to separate over?

 

[no1]

Yes eternal never to rise to new spirit life. Hell is the living suffering we suffer daily . The wrath of God revealed from heaven .In dying death occurs.

Psalm 104:29 When you turn away from them, they become frightened. When you take away their breath, they die, and their bodies return to the dust.

Ecclesiastes 12:6-8 Remember your Creator while you are young, before the silver rope snaps and the golden bowl is crushed
like a jar broken at the well,like a stone cover on a well that breaks and falls in. Your body came from the earth. And when you die, it will return to the earth. But your spirit came from God, and when you die, it will return to him.

No partial payment... that would represent a merciless God.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 

[InfidelImam]

We both could be wrong, but I now believe Malachi 4:3 is clear:
"And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts. "

yo, OP, have you read this?

the_bible_teaches_annihilationism__1st_edition_pdf_version__final.pdf


Can download it from here:

https://www.3ringbinder.org/uploads...lationism__1st_edition_pdf_version__final.pdf

590 pages.

Certain sections were a bit boring, but nonetheless, it was a good read with excellent explanations

e.g. what "forever & ever" really means, etc.

Have a good day & God Bless

 

[InfidelImam]

My conclusion from reading the Bible is that :

1) IF you're saved, you get eternal life.

2) IF you die a sinner, you'll be snuffed out after a period of punishment, according to the weight of your sins.

Finite punishment, for finite sins committed during a finite duration/period. God is JUST.

NOT eternal life in hell fire. The 2nd death means exactly that....DEATH.

Nobody has immortality other than God. 1 Timothy 6:16

Also, research Nephesh (נֶ֫פֶשׁ nép̄eš) guys.

Believers will only get immortality after the resurrection & when God grants it.

 

[Adstar]

Does anyone here actually believe the culture, the secular, the skeptic, the atheist, the materialist, the naturalist, the socialist, the Marxists, the Nietzsche philosophers, the abortionists, the radical feminists, the Islamist, the persecution of Christians in China, the erasing of absolutes, the denial of universal morality, the lgbtq++, the progressives, does anyone actually believe our world cares about rather Hell is eternal for the living soul or a eternal annihilation for the soul?

I don't know about anyone else.. But i do not come on here and discuss God and His will with people who don't care... If people don't care about God or His will then i would appreciate it if they did not waste my time..

 

[Adstar]

My conclusion from reading the Bible is that :

1) IF you're saved, you get eternal life.

2) IF you die a sinner, you'll be snuffed out after a period of punishment, according to the weight of your sins.

Finite punishment, for finite sins committed during a finite duration/period. God is JUST.

NOT eternal life in hell fire. The 2nd death means exactly that....DEATH.

Nobody has immortality other than God. 1 Timothy 6:16

Also, research Nephesh (נֶ֫פֶשׁ nép̄eš) guys.

Believers will only get immortality after the resurrection & when God grants it.

Your thinking with a mans logic and your own personal sense of justice.. If you where consistent then you would object to the reward of eternal life in Gods perfect existence as a far too greater reward which is not justified by a limited weight of your good works in this limited life..

But i never find people protesting about the injustice of eternal reward for a limited life time of at best inconsistent good works..

God does not think as men think.. His thoughts are Higher then ours..

Isaiah 55: KJV
8 "¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. {9} For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Proverbs 14: KJV
12 "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

And the revelation of Jesus lets us know that sin does not condemn anyone to the eternal lake of Fire.. Because the Atonement of Jesus covers all our sins and gifts us forgiveness.. Now we know rejection of the Word of God and the gift of Atonement see's one condemned to the eternal Lake of Fire..

 

[Roughsoul1991]

I don't know about anyone else.. But i do not come on here and discuss God and His will with people who don't care... If people don't care about God or His will then i would appreciate it if they did not waste my time..

Time is only wasted if you choose to waste it.

If you care about straining out knats then that is your choice. I just believe there are much weightier issues to truly worry about. Christians on here and everywhere else get nasty when debating topics that are not even close to soul salvation issues. I saw ChristianChat even had to make news rules dealing with certain topics.

But by people if your referring to me then you need to know I care greatly about God's will as to why I was trying to close senseless divisions and unite on the weightier issues that are connected to soul salvation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Obviously both are true. At some point they are going to be tormented in the presence of the holy and angels and the Lamb and they will be shut away from God's presence. These scriptures that you are attempting to base annihilation have no power. I've provided the word olethros translated as destruction which specifically states that the word does not imply annihilation, but you ignore that and jump from one thing to another. How about addressing the definition of the word olethros?

Hello InfidelIam,

Disagreeing without a scriptural response to your disagreement is revealing in itself. It is the word of God that you are disagreeing with, as I provided the scriptures to back up my claim.

There is no such thing as annihilation as punishment for the wicked. No where in scripture, either by word definition or context, is eternal punishment ever alluded to as extinction or annihilation. The plain literal meaning of scripture is exactly what is meant.

The main problem with annihilationist is that they pay no attention to the Greek meanings of the words which describe destroy, which states right in the definition that neither apollumi, olethros nor apolleia imply annihilation or extinction.

The bottom line is that eternal punishment is on-going, conscious existence in separation from God and not cessation of existence.

 

[Adstar]

Time is only wasted if you choose to waste it.

If you care about straining out knats then that is your choice. I just believe there are much weightier issues to truly worry about. Christians on here and everywhere else get nasty when debating topics that are not even close to soul salvation issues. I saw ChristianChat even had to make news rules dealing with certain topics.

But by people if your referring to me then you need to know I care greatly about God's will as to why I was trying to close senseless divisions and unite on the weightier issues that are connected to soul salvation.

So you think the question of if one is destroyed in the lake of fire or suffers eternal torment is straining out knats ?????

Are you being serious? You think this is a minor issue of no importance? Unbelievable..

Christians on here and everywhere else get nasty

Like mocking other Christians because they believe that whether people spend eternity in the Lake of Fire or if people will be destroyed instantly by saying they are straining out knats.. That they are shallow people who argue over matters of no importence... Like you have just done... Being nasty

If you believe that this thread is a trivial issue benieth you to discuss then do us all a favour and do not take part in this discussion save us from your nasty insult that we who care are straining out knats...

 

[Roughsoul1991]

So you think the question of if one is destroyed in the lake of fire or suffers eternal torment is straining out knats ?????

Are you being serious? You think this is a minor issue of no importance? Unbelievable..



Like mocking other Christians because they believe that whether people spend eternity in the Lake of Fire or if people will be destroyed instantly by saying they are straining out knats.. That they are shallow people who argue over matters of no importence... Like you have just done... Being nasty

If you believe that this thread is a trivial issue benieth you to discuss then do us all a favour and do not take part in this discussion save us from your nasty insult that we who care are straining out knats...

Thank you for your advice and opinion.

 

[Melach]