Evangelical/Protestant Hypocrisy

StMichaelTheArchangel · Jan 7, 2012

Evangelical/Protestant Hypocrisy

Thursday, April 28, 2011

"This article is from Eric Hyde, a member of the Eastern Orthodox Facebook forum. The
article is quite good, hitting important points concisely and with clarity."

Confessions of a Protestant

"Growing up in a Protestant'ish faith (non-denominational, charismatic), and having never been exposed to the Orthodox Church, I am now beginning to see some of the contradictions that I lived so long with The following is a short list:"

1.) We Protestants love to shout from the rooftops, "Return to traditional family values, return to traditional marriages," etc, yet we've been the ones who have said for the last 500 years that tradition is bad, particularly religious tradition.

2.) We smirk at those "legalistic" folk who repeat written prayers during worship, yet we have no problem repeating written songs during worship. Indeed, we have no problem with our entire salvation revolving around a pad "sinner's prayer" repeated after a minister.

3.) We mock those who have icons in their church believing that they are worshiping dumb idols made of wood, yet we take two sticks, make a cross, and place it at the highest pinnacle of churches and adore it just the same.

4.) We hold the Scripture above the liturgy, as if they are opposed to each other. Yet, the liturgy preceded the canonization of the New Testament. Never mind that one of the tests that the early church imposed on the various books that were to be considered for canonization was whether or not they contradicted the liturgy passed down by the Apostles.

5.) Some Evangelicals love to point out the problems associated with Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism's intermarriage of church and state, yet we are never more proud then when we make the false claim that America is a "Christian nation," and engage in sometimes radical political activism in the name of Christ (you know, because Christ was a huge political activist).

6.) We mock the priests who walk around in robes, yet we praise pastors who drive BMW's and hash their glistening, diamond studded, Rolex watches behind the spotlight of the pulpit.

7.) We shun the Church clergy (bishops, priests, etc.) because they claim apostolic authority (and have funny collars), yet would not dare disagree with our ordained pastors, because they...um...well, because they told us not too.

8.) We believe in a myth called "Sola Scriptura"; that Scripture alone, without tradition, is the way to know God. That is, Sola Scriptura according to either the Augustian-Calvin tradition, the Luther-Melanchthon tradition, the Seymour-Roberts-Hagin tradition, etc.

9.) We deny Mary and the Saints any room in our church services, yet we proudly proclaim that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". I guess that so long as the "witnesses" are an abstract bunch, if we're not being specific as to exactly who they are, all is well.

10.) We look down our noses at the Orthodox for giving the highest priority to the Creeds of the Church in matters of dogma, yet we have untold number of factions within Protestantism over the very issues that the ancient Church debated and settled in the Creeds. The Creeds were formulated to protect the Church from heresy and division. The churches I grew up in could not care less about the Creeds and its no wonder that most of them now are wandering, isolated actions – sheep without a shepherd.

StephenDC · Jan 8, 2012

Ouch.

How does this build up anyone or anything? Or give an opportunity to discuss the faith? Or, (say it isn't so), have anything to do with Bible discussion?

systemdown101 · Jan 8, 2012

Growing up Jewish, my thoughts on both the Protestant and Catholic denominations back in the day - well, if I posted them, it would likely earn me a ban. But, I could probably channel my Inner Jew and go over your points somewhat:

1) You don't have to go too far on THIS site to hear Christians talk about how awful Jewish traditions are. Yet your own traditions, not supported by scripture, are set in stone. From the outside, it all seems like the very legalism that Jesus condemned to the Pharisees. But then again, in general YOUR legalisms don't seem so bad to you, but someone else's, well - It's almost like Mel Brooks when he said "Tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."

2) Well, the problem with *repeating* the *same* prayer over and over is that eventually it becomes a rote exercise, and as I understand it, prayer should come from the heart and existing circumstances. I think all my prayers to God are discussions of what is happening now, and I try not to use the same words over and over. I ad-lib prayers, as odd as that sounds. I'm not entirely sure you can have an entire church ad-lib a song. At the very least, it would confuse the musicians. And in any event, comparing a song to a prayer is apples and oranges.

3) Heh. My church doesn't have a cross, and for that reason. I'm not really sure I see the big deal about them though, and I don't have a problem with Catholics and their icons, although there have been some odd moments surrounding them, especially during the Middle Ages when you had a dozen or so churches each claiming they had Yeshua's foreskin.

4) And yet the Old Testament, written by the Jews, has been declared as false and forged. So my answer to this one is "Yeah, tell me about it."

5) America, a Christian nation? Heh. Heh heh heh.

6) Oh dear. You've been missing out on a bunch of posters then. We had one who was recently banned who loved pointing out how John Hagee was super-rich. And I certainly remember the controversy when Robert Schuller built the Crystal cathedral here in California. And the Bakkers - especially Tammy Faye. Oh, yeah, the hypocracy of Protestant leaders flaunting their wealth has been well documented all over the place. Then again, just how much wealth is hidden in St. Peters? But you know, I DO think those collars are funny. Then again, I also think judges in England look funny when they wear wigs in court. What's up with that?

7) I don't see that in my church. In fact, my pastor has flat-out said that if God wished, He could have a blade of grass come up and make a better sermon than the pastor could. He's also said he's just a servant and not a leader to necessarily look up to, only Yeshua deserves that. But on the other hand, when you have the various Popes saying that their word is law when it's supposed to be Yeshua, well what can you say? But this isn't really a Protestant or Catholic thing from where I stand. You put almost anyone up in charge of a church and no matter their denomination, if they start thinking that they're more special than the message, you're gonna get a nutjob who starts running the church like it's his property instead of His. And from my perspective, the only real difference between the Catholic and Protestant churches is the fact that the Catholics have had a thousand-ish years more practice at doing it.

8) Just how exactly DID that thief on the cross get to paradise? I mean, he wasn't baptised, didn't go to mass, didn't read the Bible, didn't go to communion. I guess maybe there might be another way. It might have something to do with faith. Unless Yeshua lied to the guy. Yeah, I'd say a number of churches have some 'splainin' to do here.

9) I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

10) "Creeds of the Church"? Again, never heard of it so I can truthfully say I don't look down on it. I hope it isn't some kind of legalism though. You know what people think about THAT here.

Now, my personal opinion? I think it's a GOOD thing that there's Catholic AND Protestant churches out there, because some people are purposed by Yeshua differently, and will thrive in one church or denomination, while they would feel crushed or rejected in another. So as long as you're not off joining Scientology or the like, the numerous denominations serve God's purpose, as far as I can see, and I certainly think that there will be many people saved in many differing denominations. Also, from where I stand? The Protestants and Catholics are far more similar than different.

StMichaelTheArchangel · Jan 8, 2012

StephenDC said:

My apologies, this was something that was written by a Protestant convert, not me.

systemdown101 said:

Growing up Jewish, my thoughts on both the Protestant and Catholic denominations back in the day - well, if I posted them, it would likely earn me a ban. But, I could probably channel my Inner Jew and go over your points somewhat:

1) You don't have to go too far on THIS site to hear Christians talk about how awful Jewish traditions are. Yet your own traditions, not supported by scripture, are set in stone. From the outside, it all seems like the very legalism that Jesus condemned to the Pharisees. But then again, in general YOUR legalisms don't seem so bad to you, but someone else's, well - It's almost like Mel Brooks when he said "Tragedy is when I cut my finger, comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die."

2) Well, the problem with *repeating* the *same* prayer over and over is that eventually it becomes a rote exercise, and as I understand it, prayer should come from the heart and existing circumstances. I think all my prayers to God are discussions of what is happening now, and I try not to use the same words over and over. I ad-lib prayers, as odd as that sounds. I'm not entirely sure you can have an entire church ad-lib a song. At the very least, it would confuse the musicians. And in any event, comparing a song to a prayer is apples and oranges.

3) Heh. My church doesn't have a cross, and for that reason. I'm not really sure I see the big deal about them though, and I don't have a problem with Catholics and their icons, although there have been some odd moments surrounding them, especially during the Middle Ages when you had a dozen or so churches each claiming they had Yeshua's foreskin.

4) And yet the Old Testament, written by the Jews, has been declared as false and forged. So my answer to this one is "Yeah, tell me about it."

5) America, a Christian nation? Heh. Heh heh heh.

6) Oh dear. You've been missing out on a bunch of posters then. We had one who was recently banned who loved pointing out how John Hagee was super-rich. And I certainly remember the controversy when Robert Schuller built the Crystal cathedral here in California. And the Bakkers - especially Tammy Faye. Oh, yeah, the hypocracy of Protestant leaders flaunting their wealth has been well documented all over the place. Then again, just how much wealth is hidden in St. Peters? But you know, I DO think those collars are funny. Then again, I also think judges in England look funny when they wear wigs in court. What's up with that?

7) I don't see that in my church. In fact, my pastor has flat-out said that if God wished, He could have a blade of grass come up and make a better sermon than the pastor could. He's also said he's just a servant and not a leader to necessarily look up to, only Yeshua deserves that. But on the other hand, when you have the various Popes saying that their word is law when it's supposed to be Yeshua, well what can you say? But this isn't really a Protestant or Catholic thing from where I stand. You put almost anyone up in charge of a church and no matter their denomination, if they start thinking that they're more special than the message, you're gonna get a nutjob who starts running the church like it's his property instead of His. And from my perspective, the only real difference between the Catholic and Protestant churches is the fact that the Catholics have had a thousand-ish years more practice at doing it.

8) Just how exactly DID that thief on the cross get to paradise? I mean, he wasn't baptised, didn't go to mass, didn't read the Bible, didn't go to communion. I guess maybe there might be another way. It might have something to do with faith. Unless Yeshua lied to the guy. Yeah, I'd say a number of churches have some 'splainin' to do here.

9) I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

10) "Creeds of the Church"? Again, never heard of it so I can truthfully say I don't look down on it. I hope it isn't some kind of legalism though. You know what people think about THAT here.

Now, my personal opinion? I think it's a GOOD thing that there's Catholic AND Protestant churches out there, because some people are purposed by Yeshua differently, and will thrive in one church or denomination, while they would feel crushed or rejected in another. So as long as you're not off joining Scientology or the like, the numerous denominations serve God's purpose, as far as I can see, and I certainly think that there will be many people saved in many differing denominations. Also, from where I stand? The Protestants and Catholics are far more similar than different.

Take a look at this chart and then try to tell me that we Orthodox are more similar than different. Protestantism has divided into THOUSANDS of different sects each teaching different Christian doctrines, so how are we "more similar"?

OldOrthodoxChristian · Jan 8, 2012

StephenDC said:

How does not knowing the truth save or build up anyone?
How does not knowing the truth about Protestantism save or build up anyone/
Protestantism claims to know the truth about Catholicism, which they protest against.
They don't know that their own Protestant faith depends upon Catholicism in John 15:26 and countless other teachings they inherit from Augustine of Hippo and the Roman papacy.

systemdown101 · Jan 8, 2012

StMichaelTheArchangel said:

Hmm. Every sect believes in the same God. They all believe that God sent Jesus as His only begotten Son, born of a virgin. They all believe that Yeshua was the messiah, that he died for our sins, that He rose again on the third day. They all believe that Jesus reigns in Heaven with His Father.

Yeah. They all look alike to me. When you look at that list, disagreements over whether a wafer literally turns into Yeshua's flesh or not are pretty minor points in comparison.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Jan 8, 2012

StMichaelTheArchangel;614473 said:

Dear StMichaeltheArchangel: God bless you! Here's some more

truth on the Protestant teaching of "Bible alone":

"FALSE ASSUMPTION #3: Christians can interpret the Scriptures

for themselves, without the aid of the Church.

"Though some Protestants might take issue with the way this

assumption is worded, this is essentially the belief that prevailed when

the Reformers first advocated the doctrine of sola Scriptura. The line

of reasoning was that the meaning of Scripture is clear enough that

anyone could understand it by simply reading it for himself, and thus

the Church's help is superfluous.

"This position is clearly stated by the Tubingen Lutheran Scholars, who

exchanged letters with Patriarch Jeremias II of Constantinople about

thirty years after Luther's death:

Perhaps, someone will say on the one hand, the Scriptures are

absolutely free from error; but on the other hand, they have been

concealed by much obscurity, so that without the interpretations of the

Spirit-bearing Fathers they could not be clearly understood. But

meanwhile this, too, is very true that what has been said in a scarcely

perceptible manner in some places in the Scriptures, these same things

have been stated in another place in them explicitly and most clearly

so that even the most simple person can understand them. (1)

"Though these Lutheran scholars claimed to use the writings of the

Holy Fathers, they argued that these writings were unnecessary, and

that, where they believed the Scriptures and the Holy Fathers conflicted,

the Fathers were to be disregarded.

"What they were actually arguing, however, was that when the

teachings of the Holy Fathers conflicted with their own private opinions

on the Scriptures, their private opinions were to be considered more

authoritative than the teachings of the Fathers of the Church. Rather

than listening to the Fathers, who had shown themselves righteous and

saintly, they gave priority to the human reasonings of the individual.

This is the same human reason that has led the most influential

Lutheran biblical scholars of the past hundred years to reject many of

the essential doctrines of Scripture, and even to reject the inspiration

of the Scriptures themselves -- they very foundation upon which the

early Lutherans claimed to base their entire faith!

"In reply, Patriarch Jeremias II clearly exposed the true character of

private interpretation:

Let us accept, then, the traditions of the Church with a sincere heart

and not a multitude of rationalizations. For God created man to be

upright; instead they sought after diverse ways of rationalizing

(Ecclesiastes 7:29). Let us not allow ourselves to learn a new kind of

faith which is condemned by the tradition of the Holy Fathers. For the

Divine apostle says, "if anyone is preaching to you a Gospel contrary

to that which you received, let him be accursed" (Galatians 1:9)." (2)

"B. THE DOCTRINE OF SOLA SCRIPTURA DOES NOT MEET ITS OWN

CRITERIA

"You might imagine that such a belief system as Protestantism, which

has as its cardinal doctrine that Scripture alone is authoritative in

matters of faith, wold first seek to prove that this cardinal doctrine met

its own criteria. One would probably expect Protestants to be able to

brandish hundreds of proof-texts from the Scriptures to support this

doctrine -- upon which all else they believed is based. At the very

least, one would hope two or three solid texts which clearly taught this

doctrine could be found -- since the Scriptures themselves say, "In the

mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established" (2

Corinthians 13:1).

"Yet like the boy in the fable who pointed out that the emperor wore no

clothes, I must say there is not one single verse in the entirety of Holy

Scripture that teaches the doctrine of sola Scriptura. There is not even

one that comes close. Oh yes, there are numerous passages in the

Bible that speak of its inspiration, of its authority, and of its profitability

-- but there is no place in the Bible that teaches that Scripture alone is

authoritative for believers. If such a teaching were even implicit, then

surely the early Fathers of the Church would have taught this doctrine

also. But which of the Holy Fathers ever taught such a thing? Thus

Protestantism's most basic teaching self-destructs, being contrary to

itself.

"But not only is the Protestant doctrine of sola Scriptura not taught in

the Scriptures -- it is, in fact, specifically contradicted by the Scriptures

(which we have already discussed) which teach that Holy Tradition is

also binding to Christians (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Corinthians 11:2)."

[pp. 21-23: Sola Scriptura: An Orthodox Analysis of the Cornerstone

of Reformation Theology. by Fr. John Whiteford. Copyright 1996,

Conciliar Press, Ben Lomond, CA.].

Notes.

1. George Mastrantonis, Augusburg and Constantinople; p. 115.

2. Mastrantonis, p. 198.

resurrection33 · Jan 8, 2012

StMichaelTheArchangel said:

Evangelical/Protestant Hypocrisy

Thursday, April 28, 2011

"This article is from Eric Hyde, a member of the Eastern Orthodox Facebook forum. The
article is quite good, hitting important points concisely and with clarity."

Confessions of a Protestant

"Growing up in a Protestant'ish faith (non-denominational, charismatic), and having never been exposed to the Orthodox Church, I am now beginning to see some of the contradictions that I lived so long with The following is a short list:"

1.) We Protestants love to shout from the rooftops, "Return to traditional family values, return to traditional marriages," etc, yet we've been the ones who have said for the last 500 years that tradition is bad, particularly religious tradition.

2.) We smirk at those "legalistic" folk who repeat written prayers during worship, yet we have no problem repeating written songs during worship. Indeed, we have no problem with our entire salvation revolving around a pad "sinner's prayer" repeated after a minister.

3.) We mock those who have icons in their church believing that they are worshiping dumb idols made of wood, yet we take two sticks, make a cross, and place it at the highest pinnacle of churches and adore it just the same.

4.) We hold the Scripture above the liturgy, as if they are opposed to each other. Yet, the liturgy preceded the canonization of the New Testament. Never mind that one of the tests that the early church imposed on the various books that were to be considered for canonization was whether or not they contradicted the liturgy passed down by the Apostles.

5.) Some Evangelicals love to point out the problems associated with Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism's intermarriage of church and state, yet we are never more proud then when we make the false claim that America is a "Christian nation," and engage in sometimes radical political activism in the name of Christ (you know, because Christ was a huge political activist).

6.) We mock the priests who walk around in robes, yet we praise pastors who drive BMW's and hash their glistening, diamond studded, Rolex watches behind the spotlight of the pulpit.

7.) We shun the Church clergy (bishops, priests, etc.) because they claim apostolic authority (and have funny collars), yet would not dare disagree with our ordained pastors, because they...um...well, because they told us not too.

8.) We believe in a myth called "Sola Scriptura"; that Scripture alone, without tradition, is the way to know God. That is, Sola Scriptura according to either the Augustian-Calvin tradition, the Luther-Melanchthon tradition, the Seymour-Roberts-Hagin tradition, etc.

9.) We deny Mary and the Saints any room in our church services, yet we proudly proclaim that we are "surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses". I guess that so long as the "witnesses" are an abstract bunch, if we're not being specific as to exactly who they are, all is well.

10.) We look down our noses at the Orthodox for giving the highest priority to the Creeds of the Church in matters of dogma, yet we have untold number of factions within Protestantism over the very issues that the ancient Church debated and settled in the Creeds. The Creeds were formulated to protect the Church from heresy and division. The churches I grew up in could not care less about the Creeds and its no wonder that most of them now are wandering, isolated actions – sheep without a shepherd.

There are no perfect churches.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Jan 8, 2012

resurrection33 said:

Only a perfect Church could prevail against the gates of hell (Matthew 16:18). There are no perfect church members; that does not mean there is no perfect Church. No member of the Church is the Church. St. Peter was not the Church; he was an imperfect member of the perfect Church of Christ. This is what the Bible teaches!

resurrection33 · Jan 8, 2012

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

There is hypocrisy in all churches.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Jan 8, 2012

resurrection33 said:

'

There is salvation in all true churches. Hypocrisy exists only in individuals. A church can't be false if it is founded by Christ. Otherwise, it is not really a church.

SantoSubito · Jan 8, 2012

systemdown101 said:

It's actually pretty important. Because that rejection leads to the development of an entirely anti-sacramental system, which leads to a different understanding of how we are saved, which leads to a different understanding of how grace is dispensed by God, and so on.

I mean compare the SBC to the RCC and on the list of things in common you would find.

1. One God

2. Trinity

3. Death of Christ

and on the list of things not in common you would have pretty much everything else.

OldOrthodoxChristian · Jan 8, 2012

SantoSubito said:

It's actually pretty important. Because that rejection leads to the development of an entirely anti-sacramental system, which leads to a different understanding of how we are saved, which leads to a different understanding of how grace is dispensed by God, and so on.

I mean compare the SBC to the RCC and on the list of things in common you would find.

1. One God

2. Trinity

3. Death of Christ

and on the list of things not in common you would have pretty much everything else.[

/quote]

Roman Catholicism and the EOC each have much in common, as Rome was Orthodox until 1014-1054 or so. Even after the schism, Rome wanted reunion. Of course, on Rome's terms, which is totally unacceptable to the True Orthodox Catholic Church.
Rome goes wrong regarding John 15:26 and papal infallibility (1870 AD), the immaculate conception, and a few other key dogmas of Catholicism. Orthodoxy doesn't have these errors.

resurrection33 · Jan 8, 2012

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

The Lord’s blessing goes with any church that is trying to do his will.

lil_christian · Jan 8, 2012

StMichaelTheArchangel said:

I haven't seen that in the protestant church before...

Written prayer and written songs are two waaayy different things. Do you expect people to write 5 new songs each week? Praying something and singing/praising Jesus are two different things. Both equally important, but different.

Nooot really...to me, it's just a reminder of what Jesus has done for us. We don't pray to it, we don't bow down to it.

Besides, God says don't worship anything else but Him...

I don't know what church you went to....but it definitely had its facts wrong. America is definitely not a Christian nation. Yes our foundation was Christian, but the world has changed since the 1600s.

Not all churches that aren't catholic are bad... and not all of them have BMW's or Rolex watches or anything like that.

Nooot always. If a pastor was like that I wouldn't go to that church. Because NO ONE is always correct.

What do you mean by that? If you mean by praying to them (that might be just something I've heard that Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints), God says not to praise or pray to anyone but Him.

I hope you realize I don't write this with the intention of fighting. It's just, there's some flaws in that. You can't say that all protestant churches are like the points you've given. Not all churches are like that. My church is not like that....I'm sure others can say the same about their church.

RachelBibleStudent · Jan 8, 2012

OldOrthodoxChristian said:

when are you going to get tired of insinuating but not quite saying flat out that non orthodoxist christians are not saved?

i have to say that one of the most irritating things about the eastern orthodox church is its dishonest evasiveness about that very issue...

StMichaelTheArchangel · Jan 8, 2012

RachelBibleStudent said:

Read this by one of our Metropolitans (head bishops) of the Church (his body is also incorrupt and he was recently canonized.

See his incorrupted relics, this was after he was unearthed from the ground, this is a sign of great sanctity.

Here he is, St Philaret (Voznesensky) of New York while in the body:

And here is his lesson titled "Will The Hetrodox Be Saved?"

Will the Heterodox Be Saved?

"The question: Can the heterodox (i.e. those who do not belong to Orthodoxy - the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church) be saved, has become particularly painful and acute in our days. In attempting to answer this question, it is necessary, first of all, to recall that in His Gospel the Lord Jesus Christ Himself mentions but one state of the human soul which unfailingly leads to perdition, i.e. blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:31-32). The Holy Spirit is, above all, the Spirit of Truth, as the Saviour loved to refer to Him. Accordingly, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is blasphemy against the Truth, conscious and persistent opposition to it. The same text makes it clear that even blasphemy against the Son of Man - i.e. the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Son of God Himself - may be forgiven men, as it may be uttered in error or in ignorance and, subsequently, may be covered by conversion and repentance (an example of such a converted and repentant blasphemer is the Apostle Paul. See Acts 26:ll and I Tim. 1:13).

If, however, a man opposes the Truth which he clearly apprehends by his reason and conscience, he becomes blind and commits spiritual suicide, for he thereby likens himself to the devil, who believes in God and dreads Him, yet hates, blasphemes, and opposes Him. Thus, man’s refusal to accept the Divine Truth and his opposition thereto makes him a son of damnation. Accordingly, in sending His disciples to preach, the Lord told them: “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mk.16:16), for the latter heard the Lord’s Truth and was called upon to accept it, yet refused, thereby inheriting the damnation of those who “believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (II Thes.2:12).

The Holy Orthodox Church is the repository of the divinely revealed Truth in all its fullness and fidelity to apostolic Tradition. Hence, he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematizes such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-g), threatening them with eternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold. It is self-evident, however, that sincere Christians who are Roman Catholics, or Lutherans, or members of other non-Orthodox confessions, cannot be termed renegades or heretics - i.e. those who knowingly pervert the truth...* They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, “Who will have all men to be saved” (I Tim. 2:4) and “Who enlightens every man born into the
world” (Jn. 1:91, undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation in His own way..

With reference to the above question, it is particularly instructive to recall the answer once given to an ” inquirer” by the Blessed Theophan the Recluse. The blessed one replied more or less thus: “You ask, will the heterodox be saved... Why do you worry about them? They have a Saviour, Who desires the salvation of every human being. He will take care of them. You and I should not be burdened with such a concern. Study yourself and your own sins... I will tell you one thing, however: should you, being Orthodox, and possessing the Truth in its fullness, betray Orthodoxy and enter a different faith, you will lose you soul forever.”

We believe the foregoing answer by the saintly ascetic to be the best that can be given in this matter."

Archimandrite Philaret
(later Metropolitan Philaret of Blessed Memory)

* The Greek word for “heresy” is derived from the word for “choice” and hence inherently implies conscious, willful rejection or opposition to the Divine Truth manifest in the Orthodox Church.

Translated from the Russian by Stephen Karganovic.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 9, 2012

StMichaelTheArchangel said:

Never shouted from a rooftop (or anywhere else for that matter) not seen anyone else do this.

as for values. values should be set in scripture. not tradition.

Repetition of any type (song or prayer) looses its flavor and purpose after awhile. Instead of believing and hearing the message, it all becomes words. which is just repeated over and over. like anything, it becomes automatic. That is why scripture speaks against vain repetition. As for sinners prayer. it means nothing if their is no faith. it is just empty words.

Scripture was around LONG before any liturgy or anything else. Peter stated Paul's writings were scripture. Part of the gospel of Luke was quoted as scripture. God did not need an aorganization to "canonize" anything, He already had his word in place when John finished his letter of revelation. it is nothing byt sinful pride to think it took God 300 and some years to canonize his word.

America has not been a Christian nation in years. And even when it followed God's moral law. They were not a christian nation because of any church running the state. it was because people chose to follow Gods moral law.

lol. Sounds like someone was pissed of by some church. I hate to tell this guy. We despise people who "get rich" in the name of God. it does not matter what denomination they belong to!

The problem with many churches, Including Roman and eastern roman churches. Listen to us or else. The pharisees were like this. we see where it got them, it will lead many to hell because they are following man not God.

Or we follow Gods word. And do not follow any tradition. Many people will follow many of the same things. That should be expected if we follow the same word. But it does not mean we follow one particular man or tradition. The problem with "Old Tradition" is they always say people must follow "Old people" yet this is simply not the case. and again just another form of hypocracy. Instead of trying out why or what someone believe. we must place them under some category. Thus we are spoonfed what this or that person believes. and 99 % of the time are wrong. and when confronted with it. We don't believe we are wrong. Because it is what we are TAUGHT what you believe. so we are right, you are wrong!

Have no clue what this guy is rambling on here. Sounds like more orthodox propoganda thats all..

10.)

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again, typical orthodox or roman propoganda. Scripture was given to protect the church from heresy, not creeds. God did not write creeds, he wrote his word (scripture)

When Christ defending his teachings or actions. he did not go to creeds, he defended it with the word of God. When Paul or any apostle defending their doctrines or actions. they used the word of God. Why some 300 years later, we need to do like the jews did. and write man made creeds or documants to prevent heresy (the same "laws" which Christ purposely broke to challenge the tradition of men, and cause hatred among traditional jews) and the same laws and traditions that God Christ crucified.

yet again. nothing but orthodox propoganda. All protestants are one group, even though they all believe different things. It does not matter if the early church had seven churches which believed different thing (churches of revelation) what matters, is we are unchanged since day one (which is not even true) thus we are right, everyone else is wrong.

eternally-gratefull · Jan 9, 2012

Orthodox hypocracy

1. We, (not God) put the bible together
2. We, are the one and only true church, the one who started us (even though they never changed) has fallen from Grace.
3. We have the only true sacraments which can assure one's salvation (even though our sister church has the same sacraments) all other churches are lacking. But may still make it. (even though scripture states there is only one gospel. not two or three or four) but since we, being Gods representative, say there can be more than one way to heaven, it is from God. not man
4. We are not racist, Even though the reformers who broke off from us with there heresies do not live anymore. we will still punish, offend, cut down, slam, and do whatever it takes to anyone who still does not agree with us, even though they never broke away from us. Thus we will call them all protestant, because they protest us (even though 90% of us do not even care who you are thus we could not be protesting you) Muck like nationalities or races still punish people who many years ago did bad things to them because of racism, even though they do not practice any form of racism today. they still must be punished or cut down!
5. We have the only men who can infallible interpret the scripture. It does not matter of God through his holy scripture commands all who are saved to mature in learning and knowledge so they can teach others. This is not true. listen to us, of risk falling into heresy.
6. It is fine for us to attack protestants. But how dare any protestant think they have the right to attack us (even though the protestant is not attacking anyone, but stating what he believes.) His belief is against us, so he is attacking us!
7. It is perfectly fine for us to take scripture, and even though it really does not support our position. It does not go against our tradition, so it can be used. But how dare anyone else do the same. What gives them the right to do what we do?

I could go on and on, But I think people should get the picture

Thing I have noticed is common from people who supposedly has converted from protestantism to Catholicism or Orthodoxy.

1. They do not know much about the churches they came from
2. They came from one legalistic system to a far greater legalistic society
3. Someone or something in their original churches pissed them off.
4. They have alot of bent up anger (such as the man who wrote this article)
5. They have bought into the propaganda and hypocrisy of the very churches they are now defending. and go on attack against their former church.

StMichaelTheArchangel · Jan 9, 2012

eternally-gratefull said:

The Sacrament of Holy Communion is the true body and blood of Christ, you have no idea what you are missing without the Orthodox Church. The Divine Grace that is dispenced through the Sacrament of Holy Eucharist is immense and marvelous. Jesus gives Himself to us as food.

Joh 6:52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"
Joh 6:53 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Joh 6:56 Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him.
Joh 6:57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.
Joh 6:58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever."
Joh 6:59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.
Joh 6:60 When many of his disciples heard it, they said, "This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?"
Joh 6:61 But Jesus, knowing in himself that his disciples were grumbling about this, said to them, "Do you take offense at this?
Joh 6:62 Then what if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before?
Joh 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Joh 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him.
Joh 6:67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, "Do you want to go away as well?"
Joh 6:68 Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life,
Joh 6:69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God."

Evangelical/Protestant Hypocrisy

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