Everyone is predestined before time began

[ChristIsGod]

Hi Brother, and thank you. This is how I see this TULIP belief that the OP mentions in post #3 ... any Caps are not yelling but only emphasis. Truly not seeking to offend anyone at all. Just how I've seen TULIP through the eyes of Freewill = the God given ability/gift to make that "choice" .... "choose ye this day" .... as from the beginning in the garden - until He returns or we go to Him.

The "essence" of a teaching -


"Total Depravity" - Is the person believing - I have no freewill, therefore, because I'm a filthy wretch - it's ALL up to GOD to do something about that - first to save me and then to do all the continuous keeping me 'from' sinning there-after.


"Unlimited Election" - Since the person considers themselves to be specially chosen - no matter what they do or choose, they'll be saved by GOD by no choice of their own.


"Limited Attonement" - This makes those who believe they are the Elect to feel much more Special than the rest of the world. These "specially elect ones" will be saved, 'no matter what' - and the rest can go to hell, because God wants them to burn eternally in Hell, despite their possible own desire to be saved.


"Irresistable Grace" - Is the person believing that again, there's no freewill and God will save them because His grace is not resistable, because they are one of the specially chosen/elect and others are not. That they have no choice in the matter at all.


"Perseverence of the saints" - Is the person believing that, they have no freewill or OSAS, so their freewill has nothing to do with it - that only God will or can work on them, to make them live like a saint so that, if they are "tempted from their own lusts", it's up to God to do it all, because they can't stop sinning by their own choice and if they can't stop sinning - it's God's fault somehow and they'll keep saying & praying for the duration - "GOD Has To DO Something to make me stop lusting and sinning. It's ALL up to GOD."


ALL OF THE ABOVE LEAVES OUT HALF OF THE NEW TESTAMENT, or more.


What I have seen is that - ALL of the "choose ye this day" type verses from the entire Bible have been IGNORED.


All of the "Commands" of the New Testament have been IGNORED.


All of the verses that show God's invitation to 'come' unto Him have been IGNORED.


That all of the verses that tell us to take ourselves, our thoughts, our behavior and our bodies and 'choose' to control them - bring ourselves under submission, have been IGNORED.




That whenever verses stating man's responsible to submit and control his own vessel are spoken, that those who hold to anyone of the 5 pts yell - "WORKS".

 

[GuessWho]

Before time began and before the foundation of the world(Ephesians 1:4) god choose a certain elect that will be saved, it is not based on anyone's choice to be saved but rather gods sovereign choice to save some people he has chosen to save from the fires of hell. Romans 9:22-23 paints a picture

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory Romans 9:22-23

so if you go to hell it is because god has chosen to send you there, and if your in heaven it is because god chose to save you

Who are the vessels of wrath that God chose to pour His wrath so that others may enjoy the riches of His glory?

(or should I say who is the vessel of wrath?)

 

[Kerry]

Lets see Eve said I have received a man from The Lord. This man killed his brother, did God predestine that?

 

[crossnote]

Lets see Eve said I have received a man from The Lord. This man killed his brother, did God predestine that?

In a sense, yes. He knew beforehand it would happen, had the means to stop it and yet allowed it to happen but in a way that Cain remained responsible for his actions.

 

[SolidGround]

Predestination is a very clear doctrine of Scripture, but some take it to an extreme that is no longer in the Truth.

Be careful in using the existence of 'free will' as an argument against predestination,
as predestination is a sound Biblical truth which is clearly presented dozens of times in the Word,
and 'free will' is a philosophical concept based in human rationale, and is not mentioned in the Word.

Let the Word speak for itself, and you will be shown the balance that is within the Scriptures, by the guiding of the Spirit.

Just remember that God is 100% Sovereign over all things, and man is 100% responsible for his own actions.
God cannot be blamed for anything, as He is by definition Holy and blameless.

 

[PennEd]

That line of thinking is wrong and it's called "double predestination". Double predestination is the belief that God creates some people whose purpose in existence is to be sent to hell.......


Look real close at Romans 9:23, "And he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory." Notice that God elects certain people beforehand for His glory. In other words, before the foundation of the world God chose certain people to be His children in order that He would be glorified (see Ephesians 1:4). It does not say that God chose people to damnation or predestined people to wrath.The Bible never speaks about a double predestination where God elects or predestines some to hell, others to heaven. Those who are under God's wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. Those that have the righteousness of God are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children.

What is double predestination?

This question has been troublesome for me, but in the final analysis I trust in the Lord and not on my own understanding. But the companion verse in Proverbs 16:4 pretty much says that God creates some people for the purpose of destruction. Again, I'm not sure exactly how to understand that verse and trust God to sort it out, but in my human understanding of it I am troubled by it.

 

[Kerry]

Predestination is a very clear doctrine of Scripture, but some take it to an extreme that is no longer in the Truth.

Be careful in using the existence of 'free will' as an argument against predestination,
as predestination is a sound Biblical truth which is clearly presented dozens of times in the Word,
and 'free will' is a philosophical concept based in human rationale, and is not mentioned in the Word.

Let the Word speak for itself, and you will be shown the balance that is within the Scriptures, by the guiding of the Spirit.

Just remember that God is 100% Sovereign over all things, and man is 100% responsible for his own actions.
God cannot be blamed for anything, as He is by definition Holy and blameless.

So God created people for hell and some for heaven, that is not a righteous God and not the one I serve. Well I let you in, but this guy naw I burn him and this dude yeah I take him but not this one. One for me and for him. This doctrine belongs in the cow fields maybe you get crapped own and maybe you don't. Give me a break.

 

[GuessWho]

Interesting that God suspended the savage instinct of the lyons in order to protect Daniel, but in the murder of Saint Stephen (done by men) He didn't suspend the freedom of the killers.

 

[Kerry]

Fore knowledge is not predestination.

 

[elf3]

So God created people for hell and some for heaven, that is not a righteous God and not the one I serve. Well I let you in, but this guy naw I burn him and this dude yeah I take him but not this one. One for me and for him. This doctrine belongs in the cow fields maybe you get crapped own and maybe you don't. Give me a break.

If we actually want true justice...we are all in hell. Not a single one of us makes it to heaven.

 

[elf3]

Why is everyone perfectly fine with Israel being God's chosen people? But when it comes to the new covenant God can't have an elect or predestined people? Is He still God? Did God somehow "change"?

 

[ChristIsGod]

Fore knowledge is not predestination.

Best to do a Search in the N.T. of how that word "predestined" is used.

Always used "toward something" that comes with/after Salvation.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Why is everyone perfectly fine with Israel being God's chosen people? But when it comes to the new covenant God can't have an elect or predestined people? Is He still God? Did God somehow "change"?

Who of Israel were chosen - but those that 'obeyed'. Jesus told the Pharisees that their father was the devil, not Abraham.

Same with the New Covenant .... those that obey the truth - faithful until death - these are the elect that God foreknew as well, from the Gentiles - as it's always been for the Jews as well.

Obedience has always gone completely hand-in-hand with faith and faith has always been demonstrated by obedience, since Abraham until the Day He returns.

 

[Kerry]

Best to do a Search in the N.T. of how that word "predestined" is used.

Always used "toward something" that comes with/after Salvation.

Guess you are of the lucky ones, dang those others didn't have chance.

 

[Kerry]

Why is everyone perfectly fine with Israel being God's chosen people? But when it comes to the new covenant God can't have an elect or predestined people? Is He still God? Did God somehow "change"?

It was Gods intention to use Israel as a witness and it worked to some degree as many gentiles were converted. Did He not use Israel to show His might?

 

[elf3]

It was Gods intention to use Israel as a witness and it worked to some degree as many gentiles were converted. Did He not use Israel to show His might?

Then He can do the same with His elect under the new covenant. God is Sovereign all the time not just every now and then.

 

[Hizikyah]

Acts 17:30-31, “In the past Yahweh winked at such ignorance, but now He commands all men everywhere to repent! For He has appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness, by a Man whom He has ordained; and He has given evidence to everyone by raising Him from the dead.”

 

[ChristIsGod]

This question has been troublesome for me, but in the final analysis I trust in the Lord and not on my own understanding. But the companion verse in Proverbs 16:4 pretty much says that God creates some people for the purpose of destruction. Again, I'm not sure exactly how to understand that verse and trust God to sort it out, but in my human understanding of it I am troubled by it.

A wrong interpretation of that one verse should trouble us. It's the wicked's "destination" that is the focus of in this verse about those that He created that were determined within themselves to do evil/be wicked. To say it means otherwise - is to venture into 7 point Calvinism that puts the blame of sin on GOD - making God the Author of sin or cause of it.

Romans 9-11 is Paul's attempt to explain both to these Gentiles that he was writing to and the Jews among them that God had taken the gentiles and made them a people that were not His people to use them through their obedience, which Israel had fallen from, the faith of Abraham, and use these Gentiles that believed to provoke them unto jealousy.

You can't pull just one verse from Romans 9-11 or even a few verses and cancel out the majority of the Old and New Testaments that speak of God giving both Jews and Gentiles a 'choice' to obey by faith or lose out.

You can't give commands to obey by faith to people that have no freewill or choice. And if one says that neither the Jews nor Gentiles were commanded to 'obey by faith' - then one would need to cut out 3/4s of the entire Bible.

We cannot cancel out these verses neither - when He says something 3 times - He wants us to listen -

Romans 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin -- Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which He foreknew ...


1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father ...


Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren ...

 

[GuessWho]

Then He can do the same with His elect under the new covenant. God is Sovereign all the time not just every now and then.

Nobody says He can't. But the verses in Romans ch. 9 do not talk about the new covenant people, but about how Go's intention was from the beginning to cast away Israel according to the flesh so that the world might be saved.

 

[Hizikyah]

Yaaqob 5:20, "Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way, will save his soul from death and cover a multitude of sins."