Explain 2Thessalonians 2:6,7. (use the KJV).

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cv5

cv5

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tantalon said:
Ahwatukee, thank you for your comments. May I point to the wording of the text, which in verse 6 is relating to the word WHAT, and not WHO. The "what" wording is referring to the great falling away in verse three, that must come FIRST, and then after that, the antichrist is revealed. There is a sequence of events that take place in their order, the falling away or apostacy comes first, then the antichrist comes after. I am aware of what some commentaries teach, but only the word of God, righty divided, is true.
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The "falling away" is in fact the "departure" aka rapture IMO.

https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read
 
cv5

cv5

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miknik5 said:
In regards to post 58, the GOSPEL is preached during the tribulation...please refer to the TWO WITNESSES, (revelation 11) as well as finally, the angels(revelation 14)...

So, there WILL be those who will hear THE GOSPEL preached during that time...

Not to mention the 144,000 from the tribe of Israel...
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Absolutely correct. The Church has been raptured before then, and the 2 witnesses and the 144,000 Israelites are ordained as God's preachers teachers and prophets, fulfilling in the end time the office that they had formerly abandoned. We know that the two witnesses are located in Israel and it is entirely possible that with the 144,000 are also.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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cv5 said:
The imminent return of our Lord Jesus is one of the most oft-repeated New Covenant doctrines in all of Scripture. And it is certainly one of the most if not the most urgent as well.
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Correct. In fact, all the apostolic churches expected the imminent return of Christ at that time. But we know that that would not be possible "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in".

The apostles expected the established of redeemed and restored Israel after the resurrection of Christ, but one again, they were not aware of the Church Age (which would show that the Church had a majority of Gentiles over Jews).
 
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Finepearl

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2 Thessalonians 2:6,7 KJV Breakdown as follows:

Context: Paul’s letter to Thessalonians to help them keep their faith alive (2 Thessalonians 3:2,3,11). Paul was concerned something or someone would deaden their faith, in fact he said it was already at work (2 Thessalonians 2:7)

Verse 6: The first ’Ye’ or ‘You’ refers to Christians in first century Thessalonica and of course applies with equal force to Christians today.

Verse 6: ‘What Withholdeth’ - this term by dictionary definition means to hold back, to check or restrain. Refrain from granting or allowing. The Apostles received authority from Jesus to act as a restraint. As long as the Apostles lived and oversaw the Christian Congregation they held up or slowed down the developing apostasy. They acted as a restraint upon an organisation that professed to be Christian but was deviating from Gods word of truth and establishing their own.
The Apostles clearly acted as a restraint upon the lawless action in the Congregation. Paul was one of such men as shown at 2 Thessalonians 3:6; 3:10-15. Colossians 2:8.

Verse 6: ‘He‘ - this is the one to be revealed, the one referred to in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 as the ’man of sin’ the son of perdition’. Notice how Paul describes them at (Acts 20:29,30) describing apostate leaders of professed Christianity.
These professed Christians came on the scene since Pentecost 33CE particularly after the death of the Apostles (The restraint). They were to grow in strength and influence as soon as the restraint was taken away.

Verse 6: ‘Revealed’ - implies an unveiling. To divulge something secret or hidden. Something not clear to human vision or beyond ones knowledge.
Apostate Christians would come out into the open at the death of the Apostles (2 Peter 2:1-3)

Verse 7: ‘The mystery of iniquity doth already work’ - When Paul wrote his second letter to the Thessalonians circa 51CE this mystery or secret ’falling away’ or apostasy from true Bible doctrine was already in operation.

Verse 7: ‘Only he that letteth will let until he be taken out of the way’. In 1611 when the KJV was written the word ‘Let’ carried the thought of restraint. Archaic definition: To hinder, impede, prevent. At Acts 20:29 Paul said after his departing grievous wolves would enter among the flock. After the death of the Apostles the ‘wolves’ came in full power (John 1:18)
 
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garee

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miknik5 said:
In regards to post 58, the GOSPEL is preached during the tribulation...please refer to the TWO WITNESSES, (revelation 11) as well as finally, the angels(revelation 14)...

So, there WILL be those who will hear THE GOSPEL preached during that time...

Not to mention the 144,000 from the tribe of Israel...
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Yes Amen

The gospel will preached until that which restrains (the letter of the law death) is taken away tossed into the judgement fire of God. The letter as to what the eyes see will never to rise and condemn an entire creation through corruption. . (dying) . It is the work of fulfilling the first death (the wage of sin) the wrath of God. The sufferings of this world called hell.

The two witnesses make up the one witness of God. The law and the prophets. . The word of God called prophecy .

God uses Moses who is shown not entering the promised land to represent the letter of the law death .And Elijah to represent the unseen power of the Spirit of Christ that does works in the believer. The law of faith . Together they make the one witness of God. God's interpretation as one who was there working in corrupted men to perform the good pleasure of his eternal will .

Tribes as old testament priests are used to represent gates in the description of the bride of Christ, signified as a Christian city. Most likely to represent our fellowship through the Levi priesthood

Apostle sent ones are used to represent the kingdom of priest from all nations under the manner of Melchedik fullfed by Jesus from the tribe of Judah to represent walls or foundations . Together as the temporal temple of God. We are the temple "Christ in us" just a were them under the Leviticus system of tribes Judah the tribe named after the name the father gave as a answer to prayer . Now will I praise the Lord .The work was done and we can praise him not seen.

The 144,000 a number, a no man count is a golden measure of faith used to signify the whole or perfect . Like the use of the number 7. We do not look to the literal numbering as those who compare the things seen to the same. . . walking by sight. . Many where destroyed when David numbered. We walk by faith the golden measure not trusting what the eyes see as natural unconverted mankind but do trust as the word us god gives us ears to hear his understanding. .literalizing destroys the vision .

The 144000 (golden measure) is simply a picture of the chaste virgin bride of Christ the church. She in Galatian is reckoned as the mother of us all . Like Paul who was used as a surrogate womb planting the gospel seed in a hope Christ would be formed in Timothy who later Paul espoused the work of Christ as Christs chaste virgin bride, united with her husband Christ. In Revelation 12 . She is shown clothed with the righteousness of her husband Christ. The sun under her feet. . . its the end of time. . the last day.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

In that way without parables Christ spoke not hiding the signified understanding hidden in parables from those who had no faith not little . .none that could please God..
 
walknlight

walknlight

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dcontroversal said:
Just a side note....one look around and it is obvious that sin/evil is not restrained.....the bible is clear....evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse and SATAN RUNS to and fro seeking whom he may devour!
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Agreed!
Even so,
God is in control, Who is Holy Spirit.

God Bless..
 
Absolutely

Absolutely

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tantalon said:
I never take most commentaries for truth. Why? Because their learning is mainly taken from man, or institutions of man, that have denominal bias. 2 Thess. 2 verses three and six are key to explaining the text. A CAREFUL reading of the Biblical text is what is required, not the commentaries of man.
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So we should not believe your commentary?
 
R

Rondonmon

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walknlight said:
Side note: Holy Spirit is "HE" not "it"
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God is called HE as is Jesus so whats the difference? NONE..........He that ALLOWS will ALLOW. If God is a He than the Holy Spirit is also a HE.

HE, he, he.
 
O

oldethennew

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The Holy Spirit is NOT a man or something separate from our Heavenly Father,
the Holy Spirit is the Power of God...
 
O

oldethennew

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yes Mik,
but you must realize that the GREEK interpretation can REFER to a 'neuter' object as well'...
a table or a ship/car, etc., in the Greek language is referred to as a 'her'...
always remember that 'if' you are reading the KJV, you have to remember that it is an
'English' (interpretation of a (((Greek text)))...
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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V.7b "the one restraining [masc] at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], 8 AND THEN [kai tote]..."


So... there is both a "neuter" "WHAT" ('that-which [neuter] is restraining [neuter],' v.6: https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-6.htm ) and a "masculine" reference also (re: 'restraining'), here in v.7b: https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-7.htm (as shown in my top sentence of this post).



Perhaps THIS is what "Mik" is referring to (especially because, WHEN the Holy Spirit is called "the COMFORTER/ADVOCATE/HELPER," THAT term *IS* in the "masculine" [found in John14,15,16--meaning, per the GREEK TEXT] whereas elsewhere the phrase "the Holy Spirit" is "neuter" [Greek text])
 
S

Scribe

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This is a good question. I am not sure I have the answer but I do think I am on the right trail.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(So we know that Paul had taught them about this before. My guess is that he taught them from Daniel and interpreted at length so that THEY KNEW what he was talking about. Unfortunately we were not there and do not KNOW what he had told them. Nevertheless it is probable that the references in the following three verses clues us in as to WHAT in Daniel he would have been teaching. ..

.6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, .....

I think one of the biggest clues are "Mystery of iniquity" = Daniel 8

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

And also the reference to he that holds back could be referencing Dan 12:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

My guess is that Paul had taught them previously an interpretation from Daniel concerning these prophecies and that they KNEW he was talking about Dan 12 and probably something that Michael was going to hold back until he stands up.

He must have been talking about Daniel and so that is where I would go for the answers. I think that if we can come up with an interpretation about "He that withholdeth, and he that letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" from the book of Daniel we will have discovered WHAT "I told you these things" was that he had previously taught them. If we come up with an interpretation that can not be found in the book of Daniel we are probably not teaching what Paul had previously taught them.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ In that vein, Paul had said to the Thessalonians in his earlier letter (1Th5:1-3) that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL will ARRIVE... like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that comes UPON a woman with child/in labor... and Jesus had spoken of that very thing in His Olivet Discourse (Matt24:4/Mk13:5) IN His phrase of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (which are PARALLEL/EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6... so the INITIAL one would be SEAL #1... thus the EQUIVALENT of "the man of sin BE REVEALED" at the START of those 7-yrs, just like Daniel 9:27a speaks of "for ONE WEEK [7 yrs]".



Additionally, here's a brief excerpt from a post I made elsewhere:

[quoting]

and I believe parallel wording between 2Th2:7b-8a and Lam2:3-4...

IOW, "the enemy" is His rod/tool/instrument "of My anger" like Isa10:5,6 says,

and like this Lam2:3-4 says "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" (i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT and letting 'im at 'em! [like, opening SEAL #1]),

and like Hab1:12b says "thou hast ordained them [the Babylonians, v.6] for/as judgment; and...hast established them [the Babylonians, v.6] for correction")

[end quoting that post]
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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V.7b "the one restraining [masc.] at present, will restrain, UNTIL out of the midst he be come [/come to be], 8 AND THEN [kai tote] shall that Wicked be revealed..."


Lam2:3-4 says "He hath drawn back His right hand from before the enemy" (i.e. lifting His RESTRAINT and letting 'im [the enemy (His tool of anger/judgment)] at 'em! [like, opening SEAL #1, aka the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period (INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" that they already [Paul had said] "KNOW PERFECTLY" about)]
 
T

tantalon

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Scribe said:
This is a good question. I am not sure I have the answer but I do think I am on the right trail.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

(So we know that Paul had taught them about this before. My guess is that he taught them from Daniel and interpreted at length so that THEY KNEW what he was talking about. Unfortunately we were not there and do not KNOW what he had told them. Nevertheless it is probable that the references in the following three verses clues us in as to WHAT in Daniel he would have been teaching. ..

.6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, .....

I think one of the biggest clues are "Mystery of iniquity" = Daniel 8

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

And also the reference to he that holds back could be referencing Dan 12:

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

My guess is that Paul had taught them previously an interpretation from Daniel concerning these prophecies and that they KNEW he was talking about Dan 12 and probably something that Michael was going to hold back until he stands up.

He must have been talking about Daniel and so that is where I would go for the answers. I think that if we can come up with an interpretation about "He that withholdeth, and he that letteth will let until he be taken out of the way" from the book of Daniel we will have discovered WHAT "I told you these things" was that he had previously taught them. If we come up with an interpretation that can not be found in the book of Daniel we are probably not teaching what Paul had previously taught them.
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Verse 5 is relating to verses 2 and 3 regarding what he taught them. These verses tell us that Christ will NOT make his return until the falling away, (apostacy) and the antichrist is on the scene. Verse 6 and verse 7 relates again to the falling away in VERSE 3. That must happen FIRST, before the antichrist is revealed. Verse 8 and 9 speaks of Christs' return and the destruction of said antichrist.
 
Blade

Blade

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Well one translated it like this "You are experiencing the power which holds the Wicked One back now, so that he will be revealed at the proper time, and not before"

Goes on to say "However they are not dogmatic about the precise interpretation of the verse. They agree with Best who states "no theory can be held to be satisfactory and as Augustine realized long ago we must acknowledge our ignorance.""

And we say the Holy Spirit because " what withholdeth, holds back" is neuter gender. And Paul used the neuter to refer to the Holy Spirit. The word spirit is neuter.
 
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