-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
C
Youch., preterism bites ^^
Thats the second time I've watched that now.., was too tired then and am worse for wear this time haha
while he does make some good points I have to say I'm not convinced and thats a helluva lotta scripture to review before making any strong calls
Will wait for tomorrow to respond to it properly but in the meantime heres a*bump* to keep this post live
Thats the second time I've watched that now.., was too tired then and am worse for wear this time haha
while he does make some good points I have to say I'm not convinced and thats a helluva lotta scripture to review before making any strong calls
Will wait for tomorrow to respond to it properly but in the meantime heres a*bump* to keep this post live
R
the bad guys of ezekiel 38 and 39 are identified in ezekiel 38:2 and ezekiel 38:5
magog encompasses half of the planet practically...they are most clearly associated with the slavic people but also probably include most of central and eastern asia and the pacific islands and the native populations of north and south american and australia
the NIV has 'chief prince' in the text of ezekiel 38:2 but 'prince of rosh' in the footnote...both are more or less equally likely to be correct... it would be natural to associate rosh with rus...the old name for russia...
meshech is probably to be identified with moscow...
tubal is probably the ancestor of the georgians...the capital of georgia is named tbilisi... russia seems to be intent on re-annexing georgia...so tubal could end up as part of a future 'greater russia'
persia in verse ezekiel 38:5 is unambiguously iran...
cush usually refers to ethiopia but the term can actually encompass the whole upper nile region including sudan...
put usually refers to libya in the bible...though descendants of put may have populated most of north and west africa...
gomer is the oddball on the list... gomer is probably the ancestor of the celtic nations...which in ancient times included france and spain and britain and ireland...
beth togarmah might refer to turkey...
in conclusion i don't think there has ever been an ancient war that involved an alliance of all of these nations...definitely not in the time of esther...
magog encompasses half of the planet practically...they are most clearly associated with the slavic people but also probably include most of central and eastern asia and the pacific islands and the native populations of north and south american and australia
the NIV has 'chief prince' in the text of ezekiel 38:2 but 'prince of rosh' in the footnote...both are more or less equally likely to be correct... it would be natural to associate rosh with rus...the old name for russia...
meshech is probably to be identified with moscow...
tubal is probably the ancestor of the georgians...the capital of georgia is named tbilisi... russia seems to be intent on re-annexing georgia...so tubal could end up as part of a future 'greater russia'
persia in verse ezekiel 38:5 is unambiguously iran...
cush usually refers to ethiopia but the term can actually encompass the whole upper nile region including sudan...
put usually refers to libya in the bible...though descendants of put may have populated most of north and west africa...
gomer is the oddball on the list... gomer is probably the ancestor of the celtic nations...which in ancient times included france and spain and britain and ireland...
beth togarmah might refer to turkey...
in conclusion i don't think there has ever been an ancient war that involved an alliance of all of these nations...definitely not in the time of esther...
1
Rosh in the Bible is always meant to be the word "chief".
People are saying that since Rosh sounds like Russia, it must mean Russia. lol
That opens up a HUGE can of worms for Bible interpretation. So if a word in the Bible sounds like something, then it is that something?
If you let scripture interpret scripture, then you have to say Rosh in this portion is the same as Rosh in other parts of scripture.
People are saying that since Rosh sounds like Russia, it must mean Russia. lol
That opens up a HUGE can of worms for Bible interpretation. So if a word in the Bible sounds like something, then it is that something?
If you let scripture interpret scripture, then you have to say Rosh in this portion is the same as Rosh in other parts of scripture.
R
rosh can mean 'chief' or 'first' or 'head'...but remember that many proper names of people and places in the bible have literal meanings too... for example asher means 'happy'
so any word could conceivably be a proper name if the context suggests it...
in the case of 'rosh' it is sometimes interpreted as a proper name referring to russia because the other names in the context seem to refer to russia as well...
i am not certain either way which reading is correct...though i do have a slight preference...but it would probably start a tangent in this thread to get into that...
so any word could conceivably be a proper name if the context suggests it...
in the case of 'rosh' it is sometimes interpreted as a proper name referring to russia because the other names in the context seem to refer to russia as well...
i am not certain either way which reading is correct...though i do have a slight preference...but it would probably start a tangent in this thread to get into that...
R
actually i was not viewing them as geographical locations at all...i was taking them to be references to ethnic groups...and then noting where those ethnic groups live today...
but if you want to study the list of nations as ancient geographical descriptors...then magog was the land of scythia in central asia...basically all of the '-stan' countries and the parts of southern russia northeast of the black sea...tubal was in the caucasus mountain region east of the black sea...meshech and gomer and beth togarmah were all in different parts of turkey...and persia would still have been in iran...cush would still have been the upper nile region...and put would still have been libya...
but if you want to study the list of nations as ancient geographical descriptors...then magog was the land of scythia in central asia...basically all of the '-stan' countries and the parts of southern russia northeast of the black sea...tubal was in the caucasus mountain region east of the black sea...meshech and gomer and beth togarmah were all in different parts of turkey...and persia would still have been in iran...cush would still have been the upper nile region...and put would still have been libya...
28 Tevet, 5768 / January 6, 2008
In the Name of the Lord, Eternal God
To The Honorable Mr. George W. Bush,
President of the United States of America,
Who comes seeking the presence of the Most High God, to Jerusalem, city of God, Divinely chosen site of the Holy Temple, eternal capital of our land, "the joy of the entire earth (Psalms 48:3)," may it be rebuilt and established speedily and in our days, Amen!
Esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:1), leader of the west!
Upon your arrival in Jerusalem you have the ability to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia - whose memory is honored - who in the year 538 BCE returned the exiled nations to their lands and recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the "house of prayer for all nations" (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land,
And in the manner of Lord James Balfour of England, who in 1917, called upon the Jews to reestablish a national homeland in the Land of Israel.
And thus if you truly desire peace and benevolence, and you would be counted in the company of the truly righteous, we call upon you to declare to all the world:
The Land of Israel was bequeathed to the nation of Israel by the Creator of the world. Neither could I, as a son of my faith, nor the Muslims according to their faith, ever take away even the slightest grain from the Eternal's gift, which He gave to His people Israel, the eternal people. Thus I call upon all the nations to save themselves from certain doom, to return and recognize That this land is the exclusive rightful inheritance of the people of Israel, as is written in the Torah of Israel, which constitutes the very foundation of our faith, as well as that of Islam; and is the basis for the decisions of the community of nations. He who denies this truth endangers all life on earth.
I shall dedicate all my strength and resources towards settling the Jewish people throughout their entire land. I shall greatly encourage and empower the Jews all over the world to rise up to the Land of Israel and to settle it, to establish God's sanctuary in Jerusalem, to distance strangers from it and thus, I believe, I will be making a major contribution towards world peace.
I cannot simultaneously support the establishment of a foreign state for an alien nation in the Land of Israel, and I will not lend my hand to this wrong.
Or - Heaven forbid - you can choose the second option - to willfully aid in the destruction, under the guise of peace!
You certainly know what the God of Israel did to Egypt and Assyria and to all Israel's enemies from time immemorial: Do you imagine that you will be able to save yourself if you have come to implement a plan that intends to steal the land of "the people that survived the sword" (Jeremiah 31:1), and to cut off those who survived the Holocaust, to rob the land that was given to them by the Creator?
All of the peace treaties and initiatives which have been based upon the decisions of the government of Israel, indeed the entire Oslo process, and the 'Disengagement,' and the establishment of a terrorist state within the Land of Israel known as 'Palestine' - regrettably, all of these agreements are the result of a lack of sufficient faith in the Divine promises that the Lord made to the patriarchs of our nation, and all that is written in the Torah of Israel. Understand this well: the nations of the world cannot excuse their actions and their decisions on account of the weakness of Israel and her government. God ordained that the role of the nations of the world is to strengthen the nation of Israel. This will benefit all humanity and bring about world peace, as the prophets have foretold.
Do you imagine you can escape from the struggles in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon, by offering up sacrifices of the Jews who are slaughtered daily by their enemies who speak of peace but live by the sword?
Upon your arrival in our land we would anticipate that you bring Jonathan Pollard home with you. Bring him home to Israel. He is an emissary of the State of Israel, and he acted on behalf of our people. Authorize his immediate release while you are yet in Jerusalem, before you return to the United States. This will be a positive step that will build confidence.
Remember our forefather Abraham, who pursued the world's four greatest kings in order to redeem his nephew from captivity. We cannot forget the deeds of our patriarchs, whose example guides us through every generation.
We are the loyal representatives of the Jewish people, the New Jewish Congress, and its court of law, the Sanhedrin, as well as the Temple and Temple Mount movements, but we merely reiterate herein what is public knowledge.
No government in Israel and no representative of the Jewish people has the power or right to alter, by even the slightest degree, our covenant with God and the words of our holy Torah, which are everlasting, as expressed by the prophets of Israel and even by the wicked prophet Balaam: "Then he looked on Amalek, and uttered his oracle, saying: 'First among the nations was Amalek, but its end is to perish for ever' (Numbers 24:20). Thus any desire, plan or agreement that challenges the eternal sovereignty and active possession of the nation of Israel over her entire land is utterly worthless, and has no basis in reality.
Therefore it behooves you to declare: "I, George Bush, Commander in Chief of the armies of the United States of America, will instruct all of my troops to protect the Divine rights of the nation of Israel, and remove from her any threat."
Before you is a choice: You can merit to eternal life, or be inscribed for eternal disgrace. Your fate and that of all those with you hangs in the balance of the destiny of our land.
"and you shall choose life!" (Deut. 30:19).
In Sincere Supplication - In the name of the Jewish people
Rabbi A Even Yisrael Steinzaltz
The Sanhedrin
Dr. Gadi Eshel
The New Jewish Congress
Rabbi Chaim Richman
The Holy Temple and Temple Mount Movements
http://www.templeinstitute.org/megillat-bush.htm
In the Name of the Lord, Eternal God
To The Honorable Mr. George W. Bush,
President of the United States of America,
Who comes seeking the presence of the Most High God, to Jerusalem, city of God, Divinely chosen site of the Holy Temple, eternal capital of our land, "the joy of the entire earth (Psalms 48:3)," may it be rebuilt and established speedily and in our days, Amen!
Esteemed Mr. George W. Bush, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal (Ezekiel 38:1), leader of the west!
Upon your arrival in Jerusalem you have the ability to make a declaration, as did Cyrus, King of Persia - whose memory is honored - who in the year 538 BCE returned the exiled nations to their lands and recognized the full right of the Jewish people to reestablish their Holy Temple, the "house of prayer for all nations" (Isaiah 56:7), and called upon them to return to their land,
And in the manner of Lord James Balfour of England, who in 1917, called upon the Jews to reestablish a national homeland in the Land of Israel.
And thus if you truly desire peace and benevolence, and you would be counted in the company of the truly righteous, we call upon you to declare to all the world:
The Land of Israel was bequeathed to the nation of Israel by the Creator of the world. Neither could I, as a son of my faith, nor the Muslims according to their faith, ever take away even the slightest grain from the Eternal's gift, which He gave to His people Israel, the eternal people. Thus I call upon all the nations to save themselves from certain doom, to return and recognize That this land is the exclusive rightful inheritance of the people of Israel, as is written in the Torah of Israel, which constitutes the very foundation of our faith, as well as that of Islam; and is the basis for the decisions of the community of nations. He who denies this truth endangers all life on earth.
I shall dedicate all my strength and resources towards settling the Jewish people throughout their entire land. I shall greatly encourage and empower the Jews all over the world to rise up to the Land of Israel and to settle it, to establish God's sanctuary in Jerusalem, to distance strangers from it and thus, I believe, I will be making a major contribution towards world peace.
I cannot simultaneously support the establishment of a foreign state for an alien nation in the Land of Israel, and I will not lend my hand to this wrong.
Or - Heaven forbid - you can choose the second option - to willfully aid in the destruction, under the guise of peace!
You certainly know what the God of Israel did to Egypt and Assyria and to all Israel's enemies from time immemorial: Do you imagine that you will be able to save yourself if you have come to implement a plan that intends to steal the land of "the people that survived the sword" (Jeremiah 31:1), and to cut off those who survived the Holocaust, to rob the land that was given to them by the Creator?
All of the peace treaties and initiatives which have been based upon the decisions of the government of Israel, indeed the entire Oslo process, and the 'Disengagement,' and the establishment of a terrorist state within the Land of Israel known as 'Palestine' - regrettably, all of these agreements are the result of a lack of sufficient faith in the Divine promises that the Lord made to the patriarchs of our nation, and all that is written in the Torah of Israel. Understand this well: the nations of the world cannot excuse their actions and their decisions on account of the weakness of Israel and her government. God ordained that the role of the nations of the world is to strengthen the nation of Israel. This will benefit all humanity and bring about world peace, as the prophets have foretold.
Do you imagine you can escape from the struggles in Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Egypt, and Lebanon, by offering up sacrifices of the Jews who are slaughtered daily by their enemies who speak of peace but live by the sword?
Upon your arrival in our land we would anticipate that you bring Jonathan Pollard home with you. Bring him home to Israel. He is an emissary of the State of Israel, and he acted on behalf of our people. Authorize his immediate release while you are yet in Jerusalem, before you return to the United States. This will be a positive step that will build confidence.
Remember our forefather Abraham, who pursued the world's four greatest kings in order to redeem his nephew from captivity. We cannot forget the deeds of our patriarchs, whose example guides us through every generation.
We are the loyal representatives of the Jewish people, the New Jewish Congress, and its court of law, the Sanhedrin, as well as the Temple and Temple Mount movements, but we merely reiterate herein what is public knowledge.
No government in Israel and no representative of the Jewish people has the power or right to alter, by even the slightest degree, our covenant with God and the words of our holy Torah, which are everlasting, as expressed by the prophets of Israel and even by the wicked prophet Balaam: "Then he looked on Amalek, and uttered his oracle, saying: 'First among the nations was Amalek, but its end is to perish for ever' (Numbers 24:20). Thus any desire, plan or agreement that challenges the eternal sovereignty and active possession of the nation of Israel over her entire land is utterly worthless, and has no basis in reality.
Therefore it behooves you to declare: "I, George Bush, Commander in Chief of the armies of the United States of America, will instruct all of my troops to protect the Divine rights of the nation of Israel, and remove from her any threat."
Before you is a choice: You can merit to eternal life, or be inscribed for eternal disgrace. Your fate and that of all those with you hangs in the balance of the destiny of our land.
"and you shall choose life!" (Deut. 30:19).
In Sincere Supplication - In the name of the Jewish people
Rabbi A Even Yisrael Steinzaltz
The Sanhedrin
Dr. Gadi Eshel
The New Jewish Congress
Rabbi Chaim Richman
The Holy Temple and Temple Mount Movements
http://www.templeinstitute.org/megillat-bush.htm
hi systemdown.
The Torah, the first of the three parts of the Tanakh, the founding religious document of Judaism,[5] is divided into five books, whose names in Hebrew are one of the first few words in the initial verses of the book, while in English they allude to the theme most prominent in the book: Bere****, בראשית (Ancient Greek Genesis), Shmot שמות (Koine Greek Exodus), Vayikra ויקרא (Greek Leviticus), Bamidbar במדבר (English Numbers),[6] and Dvarim דברים (Latin Deuteronomy).[7] The Torah contains a variety of literary genres, including allegory, historical narrative, poetry, genealogy, and the exposition of various types of law. According to rabbinic tradition, the Torah contains the 613 mitzvot (מצוות, "commandments"), which are divided into 365 restrictions and 248 positive commands.[8]
In rabbinic literature, the word Torah denotes both the written text, "Torah Shebichtav" (תורה שבכתב, "Torah that is written"), as well as an oral tradition, "Torah Shebe'al Peh" (תורה שבעל פה, "Torah that is oral"). The oral portion consists of the "traditional interpretations and amplifications handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation," now embodied in the Talmud and Midrash.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
The Torah, the first of the three parts of the Tanakh, the founding religious document of Judaism,[5] is divided into five books, whose names in Hebrew are one of the first few words in the initial verses of the book, while in English they allude to the theme most prominent in the book: Bere****, בראשית (Ancient Greek Genesis), Shmot שמות (Koine Greek Exodus), Vayikra ויקרא (Greek Leviticus), Bamidbar במדבר (English Numbers),[6] and Dvarim דברים (Latin Deuteronomy).[7] The Torah contains a variety of literary genres, including allegory, historical narrative, poetry, genealogy, and the exposition of various types of law. According to rabbinic tradition, the Torah contains the 613 mitzvot (מצוות, "commandments"), which are divided into 365 restrictions and 248 positive commands.[8]
In rabbinic literature, the word Torah denotes both the written text, "Torah Shebichtav" (תורה שבכתב, "Torah that is written"), as well as an oral tradition, "Torah Shebe'al Peh" (תורה שבעל פה, "Torah that is oral"). The oral portion consists of the "traditional interpretations and amplifications handed down by word of mouth from generation to generation," now embodied in the Talmud and Midrash.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
S
All I know is that when I read from the Torah during my Bar Mitzvah, it had the first five books of the Bible in it, and that was that. And that was heavy enough as it was!
I actually still have a couple invitations to my bar Mitzvah in my photo album. Maaaan ... I can't believe I used to have hair on top of my head.
I actually still have a couple invitations to my bar Mitzvah in my photo album. Maaaan ... I can't believe I used to have hair on top of my head.
