faith alone?
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K
It is easy to determine false teaching if you go by our Lord Jesus teachings.
Jesus said repent or parish. If somebody teaches repentance is not needed then it is false because Jesus said it is.
Jesus said you have to confess Him before men. If somebody tells you that is not needed then they teach false, for Jesus said it is or He will deny you for denying Him.
Jesus commanded baptism. If somebody tells you not to be baptized, they teach false as it was commanded by Jesus.
so far I am the ONLY one that has accepted the authority of Christ, His revelation to man, and the specific promise of Christ that He will preserve His Body and the Gospel entrusted to it.
At this point you have imposed your own authority upon a text and are one of many who develop their own brand of religion.
I'm not a believer in your or any man's brand/interpretation of scripture.[/QUOTE]
None of your arguments have proof.
Going to the original meaning, undoctored by men, is the basis of Sola Scriptura.
Do you reject John when he says that the Word is Christ?
Do you claim that the present Canon is not the Word of God?
If you do, then it is impossible for you to be saved.
But nothing is impossible with God.
This is an unfruitful conversation. I must excuse myself from it.
At this point you have imposed your own authority upon a text and are one of many who develop their own brand of religion.
I'm not a believer in your or any man's brand/interpretation of scripture.[/QUOTE]
None of your arguments have proof.
Going to the original meaning, undoctored by men, is the basis of Sola Scriptura.
Do you reject John when he says that the Word is Christ?
Do you claim that the present Canon is not the Word of God?
If you do, then it is impossible for you to be saved.
But nothing is impossible with God.
This is an unfruitful conversation. I must excuse myself from it.
and so did Calvin, and every modern theologian writes his own systematic system based on his own interpretation.
Calvin is opposite of Luther. Calvin developed the whole new paradigm based on a pagan idea of Predestination he fleshed out from Augustine who got it from the Manicheans of his day. He developed Original Sin as well.
Simple, maybe, but it has not worked. Every sola scripturist using scripture to test his suppositions. You couldn't prove a thing based on the method of sola scripture. The best you can do, which is the universal phenomenon of sola scripture is that everyone exults his own interpretation as truth to the exclusion of others who use the same method, just like you are stating here. The only thing that can be done is accept all as valid since all are derived the very same way.
Which proves that scripture, of itself, does not have any authority. In your case each man is the authority over a text. They scour the text for proof texts to support their suppositions.
Calvin is opposite of Luther. Calvin developed the whole new paradigm based on a pagan idea of Predestination he fleshed out from Augustine who got it from the Manicheans of his day. He developed Original Sin as well.
Simple, maybe, but it has not worked. Every sola scripturist using scripture to test his suppositions. You couldn't prove a thing based on the method of sola scripture. The best you can do, which is the universal phenomenon of sola scripture is that everyone exults his own interpretation as truth to the exclusion of others who use the same method, just like you are stating here. The only thing that can be done is accept all as valid since all are derived the very same way.
Which proves that scripture, of itself, does not have any authority. In your case each man is the authority over a text. They scour the text for proof texts to support their suppositions.
SolidGround,
it is just the opposite. You have eliminated the original meaning of scripture. You are taking a blank text and imposing wholly new interpretations to the text, all man made interrpetations. Unless you are claiming that Luther, the first is as valid as all the others and each, though different are all given by the Holy Spirit. So, thus Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist and Calvinists are all of equal value.
I don't reject John's teachings, but I only accept the meaning as it was given in the beginning. Not what hundreds of other men think it means.
it is just the opposite. You have eliminated the original meaning of scripture. You are taking a blank text and imposing wholly new interpretations to the text, all man made interrpetations. Unless you are claiming that Luther, the first is as valid as all the others and each, though different are all given by the Holy Spirit. So, thus Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist and Calvinists are all of equal value.
I don't reject John's teachings, but I only accept the meaning as it was given in the beginning. Not what hundreds of other men think it means.
E
Cassian your answers to questions are quite interesting if not amusing. First you respond with this to the authority of Scripture....
Basically questioning the truth of Scripture.
Then you respond with this post stating that the church has authority on truth...
Then finally you have the audacity to state you are the only one here in this discussion who does not refuse the authority of Scripture....
So far in this discussion you have not once used Scripture to support you except in one case where I quote 2 Tim 3:16. Your response was that I had the interpretation wrong.
So actually I was correct when I said before that you have no idea what you believe.
Basically questioning the truth of Scripture.
Then you respond with this post stating that the church has authority on truth...
Then finally you have the audacity to state you are the only one here in this discussion who does not refuse the authority of Scripture....
So far in this discussion you have not once used Scripture to support you except in one case where I quote 2 Tim 3:16. Your response was that I had the interpretation wrong.
So actually I was correct when I said before that you have no idea what you believe.
I have agreed with much you have stated on several issues because it is what has always been believed from the beginning. However, as history shows it is NOT easy to go by Jesus's teachings as is quite evident in several threads you have been on. Man interprets differently and when one's own interpretations become Truth, rather than what scripture has always meant and preserved by the Holy Spirit.
ONLY BELIEVE occurs twice in the gospels.
What is clear is that a ton of times, salvation is offered for ONLY BELIEVE/only have faith/only trust Christ as Savior.
There is but one MUST I DO to be saved.
"Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?"
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
This offer is abundant, and the Lord is no false-advertiser.
The use of language like "whosoever believes," all who or everyone who, rules out any essential addition of requirements on man.
The evidence is overwhelming and means that the few odd verses that might sound like something else is also required, must be understood in the light of the abundant repetition of believe only. The evidence is too much for one post on CC forum:
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[All them who believe, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faithof Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]
For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
What is clear is that a ton of times, salvation is offered for ONLY BELIEVE/only have faith/only trust Christ as Savior.
There is but one MUST I DO to be saved.
"Sirs, what MUST I DO to be saved?"
Answer: Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved.
This offer is abundant, and the Lord is no false-advertiser.
The use of language like "whosoever believes," all who or everyone who, rules out any essential addition of requirements on man.
The evidence is overwhelming and means that the few odd verses that might sound like something else is also required, must be understood in the light of the abundant repetition of believe only. The evidence is too much for one post on CC forum:
Rom 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is revealed a righteousness of God from faith unto faith: as it is written, But the righteous shall live by faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER][/FONT]
Rom 3:21-30
But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[All them who believe, rules out any other thing essential besides believe.]
for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth to be a propitiation, through faith, in his blood, to show his righteousness because of the passing over of the sins done aforetime, in the forbearance of God; for the showing, I say, of his righteousness at this present season: that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
27 Where then is the glorying? It is excluded. By what manner of law? of works? Nay: but by a law of faith. 28 We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yea, of Gentiles also: 30 if so be that God is one, and he shall justify the circumcision by faith, and the uncircumcision through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 4:1ff
What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God. For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Now to him who works, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt. But to him that works not, but believeth on him that justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
6 Even as David also pronounces blessing upon the man, to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works, 7 saying,
Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not reckon sin.
9 Is this blessing then pronounced upon the circumcision, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say, To Abraham his faith was reckoned for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
10 How then was it reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision: 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while he was in uncircumcision: that he might be the father of all them who believe, though they be in uncircumcision, that righteousness might be reckoned unto them; 12 and the father of circumcision to them who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham which he had in uncircumcision. 13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: 15 for the law works wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression. 16 For this cause it is of faith, that it may be according to grace; to the end that the promise may be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faithof Abraham, who is the father of us all
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
17 (as it is written, A father of many nations have I made thee) before him whom he believed, even God, who giveth life to the dead, and calleth the things that are not, as though they were. 18 Who in hope believed against hope, to the end that he might become a father of many nations, according to that which had been spoken, So shall thy seed be. 19 And without being weakened in faith he considered his own body now as good as dead (he being about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; 20 yet, looking unto the promise of God, he wavered not through unbelief, but waxed strong through faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully assured that what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 Wherefore also it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 5:1-2
Being therefore justified by faith, let us have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; through whom also we have had our access by faith into this grace wherein we stand; and let us boast in hope of the glory of God.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 9:30:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, who followed not after righteousness, attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith: but Israel, following after a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by works. They stumbled at the stone of stumbling; even as it is written,
Behold, I lay in Zion a stone of stumbling and a rock of offence:
And he who believes on him shall not be put to shame.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Rom 10:4ff
For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to everyone who believes.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
[EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES rules out anything essential added to faith.]
For Moses writeth that the man that doeth the righteousness which is of the law shall live thereby. But the righteousness which is of faith says thus, Say not in thy heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down
or, Who shall descend into the abyss? (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach.[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Do you agree with him that infant baptism is meaningless and does not save?
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO MARY-IDOLATRY]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO IDOLS, NO WATER]
ONLY BELIEVE!
1 Cor 1:21
it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER, NO MARY-IDOLATRY]
Gal 2:15-16
We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus[/B], that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:
This only would I learn from you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now perfected in the flesh? 4 Did ye suffer so many things in vain? if it be indeed in vain. 5 He therefore that supplieth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or
by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as
Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness. 7 Know therefore that they that are of faith, the same are sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all the nations be blessed. 9 So then they that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one who continues not in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them. Now that no man is justified by the law before God, is evident: for, The righteous shall live by faith; 12 and the law is not of faith; but, He that doeth them shall live in them. Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us; for it is written, Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree: that upon the Gentiles might come the blessing of Abraham in Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 3:22ff
But the scripture shut up all things under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a tutor. For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
[NO WORKS, NO WATER]
Gal 5:5-6
For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.
[NO WORKS, NO IDOLS, NO WATER]
ONLY BELIEVE!
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It must be your imagination. I have never disagreed with the authority of Scripture because I have accepted and submitted to the one who gave it. You have submitted yourself to a book and have elevated your personal interpretations of that text as truth, for you. Other men interpret it differently for themselves.
What I find also ironic you want to quote scripture as if that will prove something. It is not the citing of a text that proves anything as the history of sola scriptura shows. Everyone has a different meaning? The text you cited does not prove scripture's authority. Every sola scripturist uses it for teaching. But each teach according to his best interpretation.
The only reason a sola scripturist needs a text is to see if it aligns with his own interpretation. Kinda ironic that scripture has existed for 2000 years, and yet modern man is still trying to figure out what it means. You spend your whole life trying to figure out what it means, rather than what all Christians prior to the Reformation has done it to make it applicable to their lives. That is what II Tim 3:15 is referencing. You cannot even use scripture until you figure out what it means. And then when you decide that your personal interpretation is what it means, then you teach in light of your interpretation.
Sounds very logical and it happens just as you say. Which is why we have Lutherans teaching Lutheranism, Calvin teaching Calvinism, and that list has practically become innumerable. Sola scripturists have made the text null and void. In fact, many have stated that the ONLY truth is what one develops and no one should ever accept the interpretations of man. My only guess is that your children should not listen to you unless you can prove to them that you are not a man.
I am the only one using scripture in context with its original meaning. I have not extracted the Text either from its source or its authority as every sola scripturists does.
You have yet to prove that scripture is authoritative. Where is your proof?
What I find also ironic you want to quote scripture as if that will prove something. It is not the citing of a text that proves anything as the history of sola scriptura shows. Everyone has a different meaning? The text you cited does not prove scripture's authority. Every sola scripturist uses it for teaching. But each teach according to his best interpretation.
The only reason a sola scripturist needs a text is to see if it aligns with his own interpretation. Kinda ironic that scripture has existed for 2000 years, and yet modern man is still trying to figure out what it means. You spend your whole life trying to figure out what it means, rather than what all Christians prior to the Reformation has done it to make it applicable to their lives. That is what II Tim 3:15 is referencing. You cannot even use scripture until you figure out what it means. And then when you decide that your personal interpretation is what it means, then you teach in light of your interpretation.
Sounds very logical and it happens just as you say. Which is why we have Lutherans teaching Lutheranism, Calvin teaching Calvinism, and that list has practically become innumerable. Sola scripturists have made the text null and void. In fact, many have stated that the ONLY truth is what one develops and no one should ever accept the interpretations of man. My only guess is that your children should not listen to you unless you can prove to them that you are not a man.
I am the only one using scripture in context with its original meaning. I have not extracted the Text either from its source or its authority as every sola scripturists does.
You have yet to prove that scripture is authoritative. Where is your proof?