FAITH ALONE?????????
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Yes, it does. Love is the evidence and fruit of the new heart God puts within us.
Faith is the precursor to all good fruit. The horse must come before the cart. We are nothing without Christ in us.
It is evidence that true faith is lacking. To know Him is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him, and to obey him is to love others in a self-sacrificing way.
If one doesn't have love in one's life, then one ought to question whether the Spirit dwelleth within and has been given full control.
And thank you. Good discussion.
I agree that many elements are important in the life of a christian, but at the moment I am just focusing on what is required for initial salvation. The thief on the cross is useful because it isolates initial salvation for what would eventually have followed if he had lived another day.
Let's not play that silly find-the-exact-wording game. The meaning of the Scriptures is clear when it comes to faith in the shed blood of Jesus being the only way to salvation.
Faith is the precursor to all good fruit. The horse must come before the cart. We are nothing without Christ in us.
It is evidence that true faith is lacking. To know Him is to love Him, and to love Him is to obey Him, and to obey him is to love others in a self-sacrificing way.
If one doesn't have love in one's life, then one ought to question whether the Spirit dwelleth within and has been given full control.
And thank you. Good discussion.
I agree that many elements are important in the life of a christian, but at the moment I am just focusing on what is required for initial salvation. The thief on the cross is useful because it isolates initial salvation for what would eventually have followed if he had lived another day.
Let's not play that silly find-the-exact-wording game. The meaning of the Scriptures is clear when it comes to faith in the shed blood of Jesus being the only way to salvation.
The expression "faith alone" does not come from a Biblical quotation, but from a Biblical proposition.
It is similar to our understanding of "trinity"... it is a thing taught in scripture, so Christians decided to create a term for it, to easily identify the doctrine.
Claims & Logic:
1.) No one who teaches on "faith alone", or the "trinity", or the "hypostatic union", ever claims those exact terms are quoted from scripture verbatim.
2.) No one ever makes that claim.
3.) You cannot demand people defend a claim they never made.
4.) I can't demand that YOU defend some claim that YOU never made... it's just silly.
5.) So what claim actually IS made?
6.) The claim is that "faith alone" is a doctrine, which the bible TEACHES.
7.) So if we want to argue, we need to argue whether or not the concept of "faith alone" is TAUGHT in scripture as a doctrine... regardless of the specific words used to convey that teaching.
Discussing Doctrine:
1.) I think it's good to discuss this doctrine, and this particular expression.
2.) I think there's a lot of nuance to this topic, and many related doctrines involved.
3.) I think it's a great topic for discussion.
4.) However, when we're talking about doctrine, it's usually a fallacy to demand people provide particular phrases from scripture. Because when discussing doctrine, doctrines don't depend solely up on a particular phrase in the text, but on a "body of teaching" in the text. The word doctrine literally means "teaching", and there are many ways to describe or teach an idea. Jesus taught doctrine, and he worded things in lots of different ways.
It's great to discuss these topics... but we can also afford to tone it down a bit, and relax.
C.
It is similar to our understanding of "trinity"... it is a thing taught in scripture, so Christians decided to create a term for it, to easily identify the doctrine.
Claims & Logic:
1.) No one who teaches on "faith alone", or the "trinity", or the "hypostatic union", ever claims those exact terms are quoted from scripture verbatim.
2.) No one ever makes that claim.
3.) You cannot demand people defend a claim they never made.
4.) I can't demand that YOU defend some claim that YOU never made... it's just silly.
5.) So what claim actually IS made?
6.) The claim is that "faith alone" is a doctrine, which the bible TEACHES.
7.) So if we want to argue, we need to argue whether or not the concept of "faith alone" is TAUGHT in scripture as a doctrine... regardless of the specific words used to convey that teaching.
Discussing Doctrine:
1.) I think it's good to discuss this doctrine, and this particular expression.
2.) I think there's a lot of nuance to this topic, and many related doctrines involved.
3.) I think it's a great topic for discussion.
4.) However, when we're talking about doctrine, it's usually a fallacy to demand people provide particular phrases from scripture. Because when discussing doctrine, doctrines don't depend solely up on a particular phrase in the text, but on a "body of teaching" in the text. The word doctrine literally means "teaching", and there are many ways to describe or teach an idea. Jesus taught doctrine, and he worded things in lots of different ways.
It's great to discuss these topics... but we can also afford to tone it down a bit, and relax.
C.
The ones that follow salvation and are done out of a pure heart.
I'm going to say................ five.
They certainly do many works.
Goodness in man's eyes or God's eyes?
I'm going to say................ five.
They certainly do many works.
Goodness in man's eyes or God's eyes?
Works should follow salvation. Our labor is what will be judged at the JSOC, good or bad. Some will have bad works which will be burned up.
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If your dogma leads to this kind of question which cannot be answered, one would think they would go back the drawing board.
"How much" reveals false doctrine.
"How much" reveals false doctrine.
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really it says it here
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
what I mean is
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
the issue is that we try to claim faith and also reject Gods word at the same time so it’s not really faith
faith isnt just to say “ I believe in God “ faith is to hear and trust Gods word and follow after Because you trust and believe him
At he issue is that faith comes when you start hearing and believing the gospel which teaches us what to do and not do
so something like this
“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.
For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:35-38 KJV
if we now say “ that doesn’t apply I don’t need to believe that I’m saved by faith alone “ then it’s not really faith it’s rejection of the word of God and trying to make another way
as we learn from the word we’re growing in faith as we reject the word we’re just fooling ourselves and showing we don’t have any faith because we don’t trust What God is saying will save us that’s not faith it’s faith when we hear and believe his word and act after it
it’s actually a lack of faith when we reject the things God told us are important and will save or condemn us we have to hear and accept the lord word in order to have faith
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
John 5:24 KJV
what I mean is
“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
Romans 10:17 KJV
the issue is that we try to claim faith and also reject Gods word at the same time so it’s not really faith
faith isnt just to say “ I believe in God “ faith is to hear and trust Gods word and follow after Because you trust and believe him
At he issue is that faith comes when you start hearing and believing the gospel which teaches us what to do and not do
so something like this
“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom.
For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
Luke 6:35-38 KJV
if we now say “ that doesn’t apply I don’t need to believe that I’m saved by faith alone “ then it’s not really faith it’s rejection of the word of God and trying to make another way
as we learn from the word we’re growing in faith as we reject the word we’re just fooling ourselves and showing we don’t have any faith because we don’t trust What God is saying will save us that’s not faith it’s faith when we hear and believe his word and act after it
it’s actually a lack of faith when we reject the things God told us are important and will save or condemn us we have to hear and accept the lord word in order to have faith