Faith is through hearing. The beginning.

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Aug 14, 2019
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#1
Luke 1

39 In those days Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#2
Luke 1

39 In those days Mary set out and went with haste to a Judean town in the hill country, 40 where she entered the house of Zechariah and greeted Elizabeth. 41 When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the child leaped in her womb. And Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit 42 and exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. 43 And why has this happened to me, that the mother of my Lord comes to me? 44 For as soon as I heard the sound of your greeting, the child in my womb leaped for joy. 45 And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what was spoken to her by the Lord.”
Maybe you've seen something I haven't, but 33 years later that same John sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the promised one. Not only does this show no faith, but what was John doing with disciples? If he was sent to announce the Messiah (whose shoes John was not worthy to untie), should he not have referred them to Jesus?

Luke 1:15 says that John would be "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb". You don't think it was the Holy Spirit that moves him with His joy while still unintelligent in the womb? The word "filled" is best rendered "furnished" as indicated by the first mentions in Matthew 22:10 and 27:48 respectively;

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.


Although a sponge seems to hold water internally, it does not. Its structure allows it to hold water, not its substance. The Spirit that John had in the womb was that of 2nd Peter 1:21; "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The word "moved" means to "be born up", or "carried" - an outward force. The word "moved" is not wrong, but it could mean an inward and intrinsic phenomena - which is not the case here.

It is also noteworthy that it was not eh fetus that "heard" - but Elizabeth.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#3
Maybe you've seen something I haven't, but 33 years later that same John sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the promised one. Not only does this show no faith, but what was John doing with disciples? If he was sent to announce the Messiah (whose shoes John was not worthy to untie), should he not have referred them to Jesus?
I'm not so sure John had "no faith" ... I believe John sent his disciples for their (the disciples) benefit. At this point, John was in prison and soon to be killed. John's concern was for his disciples and John sent his disciples to Jesus.

In Matt 11:9 Jesus confirmed that John was a prophet and more than a prophet and in vs 11, Jesus said of John among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

In John 3, when some of John's disciples came to John with concerns because Jesus was baptizing and drawing others to Himself (John 3:26), John spoke to his disciples and told them He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease (John 3:30).


just some thoughts ...



 
Jun 11, 2020
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#4
I'm not so sure John had "no faith" ... I believe John sent his disciples for their (the disciples) benefit. At this point, John was in prison and soon to be killed. John's concern was for his disciples and John sent his disciples to Jesus.

In Matt 11:9 Jesus confirmed that John was a prophet and more than a prophet and in vs 11, Jesus said of John among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

In John 3, when some of John's disciples came to John with concerns because Jesus was baptizing and drawing others to Himself (John 3:26), John spoke to his disciples and told them He (Jesus) must increase, but I must decrease (John 3:30).

just some thoughts ...
Thank you for your input. You could be correct about John caring for his disciples, but this is how I see it. Here is the text of Matthew 11:2-6.

2 "Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."


The grammar allows for the question to come from the two disciples. But John sent them, and our Lord Jesus answered John, not them. Then in verse 6 our Lord alluded to one who was, or had been offended in Him. The conjunction "and" (kia - Gk.) in verse 6 joins it to verses 4-5. I dare say that John is meant.

But there is even a sadder note in our Lord's response, to which you alluded. Matthew 11:11-12 continues with;

11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."


The Lord brings up the Kingdom. And then He says John is the greatest born to a woman. But if John had had faith in Jesus, our Lord would have said "born of the Holy Spirit" - for that is the content of the discussion with Nicodemus in John Chapter 3:3-6. John, greatest of prophets, was not born again (Jn.1:12-13).
 
Mar 23, 2016
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#5
Thank you for your input. You could be correct about John caring for his disciples, but this is how I see it. Here is the text of Matthew 11:2-6.

2 "Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."


The grammar allows for the question to come from the two disciples. But John sent them, and our Lord Jesus answered John, not them. Then in verse 6 our Lord alluded to one who was, or had been offended in Him. The conjunction "and" (kia - Gk.) in verse 6 joins it to verses 4-5. I dare say that John is meant.
I do not believe John Baptist was offended in Jesus. This is the same John Baptist who said this:

John 3:

22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.

23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

24 For John was not yet cast into prison.

25 Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.

26 And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.

27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.

28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him.

29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.

30 He must increase, but I must decrease.


31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all.

32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony.

33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


John fully acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God; that the Father loves the Son and has given all things into His Hand; that whoever believes on the Son has everlasting life.





Corban said:
But there is even a sadder note in our Lord's response, to which you alluded. Matthew 11:11-12 continues with;

11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.


The Lord brings up the Kingdom. And then He says John is the greatest born to a woman. But if John had had faith in Jesus, our Lord would have said "born of the Holy Spirit" - for that is the content of the discussion with Nicodemus in John Chapter 3:3-6. John, greatest of prophets, was not born again (Jn.1:12-13).
John Baptist did have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are verses in Scripture where John clearly acknowledges the Lord Jesus Christ.

The tragedy concerning John's death is that he died before the death, resurrection, ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ. John Baptist is the same as those spoken of in Hebrews 11:

37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;

38 (Of whom the world was not worthy: ) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:




 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
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#6
I think John the Baptist was struggling in his faith because he was locked up in prison.....and it seemed he was ignored by Jesus.....perhaps John was offended by his circumstances and thought Jesus would do something about it.

However, Jesus came to ONLY do the Father’s Will and evidently it was the Father’s Will that John the Baptist be given a martyr’s crown.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#7
Maybe you've seen something I haven't, but 33 years later that same John sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the promised one. Not only does this show no faith, but what was John doing with disciples? If he was sent to announce the Messiah (whose shoes John was not worthy to untie), should he not have referred them to Jesus?

Luke 1:15 says that John would be "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb". You don't think it was the Holy Spirit that moves him with His joy while still unintelligent in the womb? The word "filled" is best rendered "furnished" as indicated by the first mentions in Matthew 22:10 and 27:48 respectively;

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.


Although a sponge seems to hold water internally, it does not. Its structure allows it to hold water, not its substance. The Spirit that John had in the womb was that of 2nd Peter 1:21; "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The word "moved" means to "be born up", or "carried" - an outward force. The word "moved" is not wrong, but it could mean an inward and intrinsic phenomena - which is not the case here.

It is also noteworthy that it was not eh fetus that "heard" - but Elizabeth.
She heard and made an extraordinary statement of faith in Christ. An act impossible without the positive will of the Father.
Compare Zachariah's response to Mary's and consider the possibility that it reveals the beginning of faith in Christ and the transition from old to new.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#8
Maybe you've seen something I haven't, but 33 years later that same John sent his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the promised one. Not only does this show no faith, but what was John doing with disciples? If he was sent to announce the Messiah (whose shoes John was not worthy to untie), should he not have referred them to Jesus?

Luke 1:15 says that John would be "filled with the Holy Spirit from his mother's womb". You don't think it was the Holy Spirit that moves him with His joy while still unintelligent in the womb? The word "filled" is best rendered "furnished" as indicated by the first mentions in Matthew 22:10 and 27:48 respectively;

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.

Although a sponge seems to hold water internally, it does not. Its structure allows it to hold water, not its substance. The Spirit that John had in the womb was that of 2nd Peter 1:21; "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." The word "moved" means to "be born up", or "carried" - an outward force. The word "moved" is not wrong, but it could mean an inward and intrinsic phenomena - which is not the case here.

It is also noteworthy that it was not eh fetus that "heard" - but Elizabeth.
The most interesting lesson I have realized is that Jesus did not tell John’s disciples to go back to John and tell him to “believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah” by faith.

Instead, Jesus performed signs and wonders right in front of John’s disciples and told them to report to John “what you have seen and heard

The Apostle Paul summed this up with this verse from 1 Cor 1:22

For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#9
I think John the Baptist was struggling in his faith because he was locked up in prison.....and it seemed he was ignored by Jesus.....perhaps John was offended by his circumstances and thought Jesus would do something about it.

However, Jesus came to ONLY do the Father’s Will and evidently it was the Father’s Will that John the Baptist be given a martyr’s crown.
I agree. Also, knowing his death was soon he sent those clinging to him to Jesus
 

Bingo

Well-known member
Feb 9, 2019
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#10
“Christianity by proxy. Ponder this carefully and honestly!"
And, no more to comment on the subject, which has endless debates.
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Aug 14, 2019
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#11
The most interesting lesson I have realized is that Jesus did not tell John’s disciples to go back to John and tell him to “believe that Jesus is the promised Messiah” by faith.

Instead, Jesus performed signs and wonders right in front of John’s disciples and told them to report to John “what you have seen and heard

The Apostle Paul summed this up with this verse from 1 Cor 1:22

For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom
I'll bet that was a great comfort to John.
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#12
Matt 11:9 Jesus confirmed that John was a prophet and more than a prophet and in vs 11, Jesus said of John among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Underneath Jesus' words
is He revealing that Adam isn't His generator?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#13
2 "Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me."


The grammar allows for the question to come from the two disciples. But John sent them, and our Lord Jesus answered John, not them. Then in verse 6 our Lord alluded to one who was, or had been offended in Him. The conjunction "and" (kia - Gk.) in verse 6 joins it to verses 4-5. I dare say that John is meant.
what if John's disciples doubt, and they express this to John, so in response John says look, we'll ask Jesus Himself and see what He says? so he sends two messengers to 'settle the question' ?

the nature of His kingdom and what He's come to do had been hidden even from Jesus' own disciples, even though He told them plainly many times that He was going to be crucified. John's not a superman with all knowledge and all wisdom and all insight into all mysteries. i don't think he's any more condemnable for asking this than Hosea is for asking God how it is He can use the Assyrians to judge Israel.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#14
But there is even a sadder note in our Lord's response, to which you alluded. Matthew 11:11-12 continues with;

11 "Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force."


The Lord brings up the Kingdom. And then He says John is the greatest born to a woman. But if John had had faith in Jesus, our Lord would have said "born of the Holy Spirit" - for that is the content of the discussion with Nicodemus in John Chapter 3:3-6. John, greatest of prophets, was not born again (Jn.1:12-13).
interesting

Peter, clearly born-again, believing, sealed with the same Spirit, later has trouble doing the right thing with regard to Jew/Gentile division. ((re: Acts 10, Galatians 2)) what should we make of that?
 
Jun 11, 2020
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#15
what if John's disciples doubt, and they express this to John, so in response John says look, we'll ask Jesus Himself and see what He says? so he sends two messengers to 'settle the question' ?

the nature of His kingdom and what He's come to do had been hidden even from Jesus' own disciples, even though He told them plainly many times that He was going to be crucified. John's not a superman with all knowledge and all wisdom and all insight into all mysteries. i don't think he's any more condemnable for asking this than Hosea is for asking God how it is He can use the Assyrians to judge Israel.
I hear you. I do not condemn John. I merely point out the circumstances for consideration.

interesting

Peter, clearly born-again, believing, sealed with the same Spirit, later has trouble doing the right thing with regard to Jew/Gentile division. ((re: Acts 10, Galatians 2)) what should we make of that?
Aaaahhhh! But this is not a matter of FAITH. It was a matter of FEAR. Peter has already, in Matthew 16, expressed what he BELIEVED. He calls Jesus "Lord". He is promised a throne over a Tribe of Israel. He heals the lame man - Mark's proof of a Christian in Mark 16:17. on the other hand, John, as a man, is FEARLESS. One of the rare "black and white" prophets who calls it how it is no matter what happens. An admirable man and "greatest of those born to a woman". But FAITH .... ? I think not. A man you would walk into battle with. A man who, like David, would face the bear and the lion. But what had he failed to do? He had failed to read and believe the prophets. It was the "signs" that he failed to believe. Acts 2:22;

22 "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know."

The Jew could demand a sign from God. The prophets predicted 330 + "signs" - of which two had never been seen before; (i) giving the blind sight and (ii) driving out demons. Whatever we like to think of Israel, we have to admit a deep and abiding INFIDELITY from the worst to the best of them. And when I say this I am fully aware that I am as bad as they are, and only write on this Forum because I was GIVEN faith. "... and THIS ('faith' according to the grammar) a GIFT of God".
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#16
of which two had never been seen before; (i) giving the blind sight and (ii) driving out demons
Healing of lepers, also, had never been seen before, excluding Naaman - was this prophesied?
You might say it was because of the elaborate law concerning a cleansed leper. Hmm
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#17
It's good to remember that when filled with the Holy Spirit a divine mode of knowing is entered into that ends. Before it does the knowledge revealed is certain. When it ends the experience of knowing becomes a memory and a matter of faith. This is what was happening to John. John was being tested on the narrowing path of martyrdom. Jesus describes it as having a rope tied around one's waist and being led where one doesn't want to go.
 
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#18
It's good to remember that when filled with the Holy Spirit a divine mode of knowing is entered into that ends. Before it does the knowledge revealed is certain. When it ends the experience of knowing becomes a memory and a matter of faith. This is what was happening to John. John was being tested on the narrowing path of martyrdom. Jesus describes it as having a rope tied around one's waist and being led where one doesn't want to go.
It is not often taught, but the word "filled" (with the Holy Spirit) has two different Greek words. In Acts 2:2 the room was "filled" ("pleroo" - Gk.) with a wind. This word means filled like a bucket of water. That is, filled internally to capacity. In verse 4 however, the disciples were "filled" ("pletho" - Gk.) with the Holy Spirit. This word means "furnished". It denotes being equipped with something like a policeman puts on his uniform for authority. The policeman "fills" (pleroo) himself with a good breakfast before duty, and then "furnishes" (pletho) himself with a uniform. The breakfast is to sustain his organism, and the uniform is to exercise power over traffic and people.

The Holy Spirit is give for two different reasons.
  1. The believer receives the Holy Spirit after believing and confessing to (i) have eternal life, (ii) be partaker of the divine nature, and to be an abode of God. This is to accomplish having the man in the likeness and image of God.
  2. The believer agrees to water Baptism (Act.2:38) and receives the Holy Spirit for "power" (Lk.24:49, Act.1:8) for ministry. This Holy Spirit is not IN the believer, but "UPON" him. It is this Holy Spirit that inspired the prophets of old, made Samson so strong and made Balaam's donkey talk. But it does not change the man intrinsically. Balaam was not a converted Christian after he prophesied, and his donkey was still a donkey.
John Baptist had the OUTWARD FURNISHING of the Holy Spirit (point #2), but did not have it intrinsically (point #1)
 
Aug 14, 2019
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#20
I don't understand what you're asking ... please rephrase your question. Thanks.
There are significant implications when Jesus told the crowd that John was the greatest man born of woman. John taught that he wasn't worthy to untie Jesus" sandle. It seems Jesus is contradicting John if John is the greatest born of woman. "Born of woman" being a euphamism for having descended from Adam and Eve.