Faith without works is dead - Bonhoeffer

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Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#41
There are people who may be good humanitarians and accomplish good things, including to help clothe and feed the poor, yet without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) no matter how many so called wonderful works that such people accomplish as unbelievers. (Matthew 7:21-23) Such people may even be "religious," but apart from faith in Christ they are not right with God.
Yes No faith may help other but faith is attempted to help other

Dog is animal, but animal may not dog.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
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#42
Believing in God's Word, doesn't mean just the element of believing. It involves also - obedience to God's Word. Below, you can see how these Bible scholars in Jesus' time - in spite of their high level of Bible knowledge - had never "believed Moses". Jesus said that if they'd believed Moses, they'd have believed in His teachings too.

I listened to Detriech Bonhoeffer, last night after bedtime - in bed. He also emphasized how the reception of salvation must be accompanied with the willingness to obey God. And he said that many teach incorrectly on this - which leads many to a false assurance of having been saved. This is a serious problem, as many such people will find themselves among the rejected "goats" on Judgment Day - see Matthew 25.

John 5:44-47

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
KJV

I agree that obedience is important.

"Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?" Romans 6:16

BUT, it is a result of God saving us. It is the Holy Spirit working in our hearts and minds, to change us to be more like Jesus. Jesus was obedient even to death. We simply cannot earn our salvation by being obedient, even though it is accepted as a step in sanctification. Instead, we need to look at the real way we are saved.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork,created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph. 2:8-10

The above verses clearly define how we are saved - by grace through faith. This does not come from ourselves. And neither does obedience. It is a work of the Holy Spirit. There are no works we can do to be saved. However, once we are saved, God gives us works to do. He has created these tasks in advance, to help us grow and mature. And to be on mission with God.

You need to get a better understanding of how we are saved. Study some soteriology, and that will help you, understand the process of salvation. But be careful, there are different views on how we are saved, and it can be a very divisive issue.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#43
Matt 7
13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Only few Find It

Find what? Find salvation, mean only few save

Hmm Jesus teach scary teaching to me
Jesus Christ is that narrow gate. He is the door. (John 10:9) Only few enter through the narrow gate that leads to life because only few have genuinely placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Sadly, many trust in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. (Matthew 7:21-23)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#44
Jesus Christ is that narrow gate. He is the door. (John 10:9) Only few enter through the narrow gate that leads to life because only few have genuinely placed their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Sadly, many trust in their works for salvation and not in Christ alone. (Matthew 7:21-23)
In other hand many believe that because salvation by Christ alone not be work, mean murder, envy etc mean save.
It Seem salvation by Christ alone not by work because only when Christ in us we able to bear the fruit of loving work

Not mean murder adulterer count as the fruit of loving work because we have Christ in our heart, but Christ in our heart Will help us to bear the fruit of loving work

No reverse
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#45
There are people who may be good humanitarians and accomplish good things, including to help clothe and feed the poor, yet without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) no matter how many so called wonderful works that such people accomplish as unbelievers. (Matthew 7:21-23) Such people may even be "religious," but apart from faith in Christ they are not right with God.
Amen, many in that day will praise their works, and sadly Jesus is gonna say depart, I never knew you
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,976
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#46
In other hand many believe that because salvation by Christ alone not be work, mean murder, envy etc mean save.
It Seem salvation by Christ alone not by work because only when Christ in us we able to bear the fruit of loving work

Not mean murder adulterer count as the fruit of loving work because we have Christ in our heart, but Christ in our heart Will help us to bear the fruit of loving work

No reverse
I don't know any Christians who say because salvation is not by works, just go out and murder, commit adultery, envy etc.. all you want. You need to remember that there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Genuine believers practice righteousness and not lawlessness.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
10,264
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#47
There are people who may be good humanitarians and accomplish good things, including to help clothe and feed the poor, yet without faith it's impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6) no matter how many so called wonderful works that such people accomplish as unbelievers. (Matthew 7:21-23) Such people may even be "religious," but apart from faith in Christ they are not right with God.
Yes I understand this.
Yet a person may both "profess" faith and have evidentiary works.
So evidentiary works can be tied to a someone who professes faith but may in fact not have faith...as in saved.

Is that "dead faith" yes according to how some define dead faith...yet that dead faith does have evidentiary works.


I conclude James is not.speakijg about spurious faith or false faith when he states dead faith....those with "dead faith" are indeed saved.

So what does the modifier "dead" really mean...it does not mean non existent?
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
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#48
I don't know any Christians who say because salvation is not by works, just go out and murder, commit adultery, envy etc.. all you want. You need to remember that there are genuine Christians and there are "nominal" Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers. Genuine believers practice righteousness and not lawlessness.
It's also kind of, offensive to intelligence to think you can do that and end up in heaven. :censored:
It gets really tiresome listening about this huge imaginary group of people they all preach at...
People either believe what they read in the Bible or they don't. It's simple.
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
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#49
So you believe murder and not repent, not make you lose your salvation?
Did you ever meet a Christian who was unrepentant of murder? No you haven’t so get lost with your red herring argument.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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#50
So you believe murder and not repent, not make you lose your salvation?
That is right you will not loose your salvation.
Salvation is not based upon our deeds or lack of deeds.
 

Corban

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2020
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#51
We are siner and so does Abraham or David, but David regret what he did and repent, If we murder every month for money and not repent, we go to hell, because faith mean trust Jesus teaching and His teaching is to love not to murder.
Christian doesn't mean license to murder or to sin.
Amen! On this we can agree. Go well and God bless.
 
Oct 16, 2020
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#52
Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few. Matt 7:13-14

“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.” Mark 1:15
For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Eph 2:10
...but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. Acts 26:20
Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Matt 3
...and He died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for Him who for their sake died and was raised. 2Cor 5:15
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matt 7:21
17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. James 2:17-18 21
17And the world is passing away along with its desires, but whoever does the will of God abides forever. 1 John 2:17
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36
And being made perfect, He became the source of eternal Salvation to all who obey Him, Heb 5:9
________________

Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”Matt 25

Parable of the Talents & Parable of the Minas

Even the demons believe… James 2:19


To God alone be glory.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#53
Did you ever meet a Christian who was unrepentant of murder? No you haven’t so get lost with your red herring argument.
Hate
Did you ever meet a Christian who was unrepentant of murder? No you haven’t so get lost with your red herring argument.
1 John 3:15
King James Version
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I don't know what is your definition of Christian but for the last 24 years my church split 4 x because they hate each other fight among the elder.

Read full chapter
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#54
That is right you will not loose your salvation.
Salvation is not based upon our deeds or lack of deeds.
1 John 3:15
King James Version
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

No murder hath eternal life

Read full chapter
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
10,264
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#55
1 John 3:15
King James Version
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

No murder hath eternal life

Read full chapter
I guess we can count King David out.

It is always best to understand the scripture in light of what is the intent and point of the writer.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#56
I guess we can count King David out.

It is always best to understand the scripture in light of what is the intent and point of the writer.
I guess King David repent.

Like the verse that I read before

Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Not forgive other is smaller sin then murder
But If you not do, God not forgive you, how you save If God not forgive you?

Seem you believe murder and keep doing It without repent go to heaven don't you
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
10,264
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#57
I guess King David repent.

Like the verse that I read before

Matt 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Not forgive other is smaller sin then murder
But If you not do, God not forgive you, how you save If God not forgive you?

Seem you believe murder and keep doing It without repent go to heaven don't you
Your focus on sin makes me wonder if you understand the finished work of the cross and grace.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
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#58
Your focus on sin makes me wonder if you understand the finished work of the cross and grace.
I don't understand the finish work of the cross.
Is that mean murder, without repent go to heaven, rob the bank every years for living without repent go to heaven?

I believe the finish Word of the bible

1 cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Sexually immoral............etc No Drunkard .....inherit the kingdom of God

I like to change this finish word, but God not let me.
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
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#59
Anything that is dead was once alive... so what is James really addressing here? :unsure:

"Spurious faith" not likely since he is addressing believers.
Why would you say believers ? He has compared this group with demons and referred to them as fools . James is addressing error .
Also why would James need write this
James 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe-and shudder!
20 Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless?

if it were to believers ? Believers wouldn’t have spurious faith then no need to write anything.
Blessings
Bill
 

Duskey

Well-known member
May 31, 2020
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#60
Hate

1 John 3:15
King James Version
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

I don't know what is your definition of Christian but for the last 24 years my church split 4 x because they hate each other fight among the elder.

Read full chapter
The scripture you share is an analogy not to be taken literally but rather a call for Christians to purify their hearts. If you wanted to talk about hateful people you should’ve simply looked in the mirror. There’s no grace in your posts.