Faith without works issue .

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John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons." (James 2:1)

All throughout the epistle of James, he is speaking to his "brethren" or those who have "the faith of OUR Lord Jesus Christ".

Got it?
Paul often referred to unsaved Jews as his brethren, such as James is doing.

In the tribulation, the Jews will have to endure through the faith of Christ and works. This is how they obtain justification.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Context verse 19 James is addressing them as beloved brethren. Doesn't sound like unsaved folks to me. Says the same thing in verse 16.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
As Paul, James also refers to Jews as his brethren...brethren according to the flesh.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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James chapter 1

[1] James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
[2] My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
[3] Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
To which of the twelve tribes do you belong?
 

deyan

New member
Dec 23, 2020
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Faith without works, is like a car without engine...
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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James chapter 5

[14] Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
[15] And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Is this Christian doctrine? When elders anoint with oil and pray for the sick, the sick recover? Not might, but are saved.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
To which of the twelve tribes do you belong?
None.

BUT these CHRISTIAN Israelites to whom James was writing and I all belong to the same body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (I Corinthians 12:13).

You know, just like the Bible actually teaches.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Is this Christian doctrine? When elders anoint with oil and pray for the sick, the sick recover? Not might, but are saved.
Yes, this is Christian doctrine.

Is this the first that you're hearing of it?

Again, these were elders in "THE CHURCH", EKKLESIA, and James' "brethren" were to seek them in order to be "anointed with oil in the name of THE LORD" whom James had previously told his "brethren" was "OUR Lord Jesus Christ" (James 2:1).

Is it possible that you don't know what the word "our" means?

It means yours (his CHRISTIAN "brethren") and mine (James, who was also a Christian).
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
None.

BUT these CHRISTIAN Israelites to whom James was writing and I all belong to the same body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (I Corinthians 12:13).

You know, just like the Bible actually teaches.
Exactly! To address jewish Christians as twelve tribes is counterproductive to Paul’s message.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
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Yes, this is Christian doctrine.

Is this the first that you're hearing of it?

Again, these were elders in "THE CHURCH", EKKLESIA, and James' "brethren" were to seek them in order to be "anointed with oil in the name of THE LORD" whom James had previously told his "brethren" was "OUR Lord Jesus Christ" (James 2:1).

Is it possible that you don't know what the word "our" means?

It means yours (his CHRISTIAN "brethren") and mine (James, who was also a Christian).
So, every time elders pray for the sick...the sick are healed? Hmmmm....
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Paul often referred to unsaved Jews as his brethren, such as James is doing.

In the tribulation, the Jews will have to endure through the faith of Christ and works. This is how they obtain justification.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Oh, so James wrote this epistle for Israelites who were to read it more than 1950 years later?

Get a grip.

Out of curiosity, what are your end-time scenario beliefs?

Specifically, do you believe that the church will be raptured before these allegedly end-time tribulation Israelites follow the instructions that James allegedly laid out for them?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
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Oh, so James wrote this epistle for Israelites who were to read it more than 1950 years later?

Get a grip.

Out of curiosity, what are your end-time scenario beliefs?

Specifically, do you believe that the church will be raptured before these allegedly end-time tribulation Israelites follow the instructions that James allegedly laid out for them?
Again, the tribulation and second coming of Christ could have been 2,000 years ago at the time of James' letter.

And yes, the Gentile church will be caught up and the Lord will turn his attention to Israel once again to finish his plans for that nation. The book of James and Hebrews will be vital for the Jews during that time period.

How many prophets speak of times hundreds and even thousands of years in the future?

Why does the book of James follow Paul's epistles? James was written before Paul's epistles....maybe because it fits chronologically with how human history will play out.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Again, the tribulation and second coming of Christ could have been 2,000 years ago at the time of James' letter.

And yes, the Gentile church will be caught up and the Lord will turn his attention to Israel once again to finish his plans for that nation. The book of James and Hebrews will be vital for the Jews during that time period.

How many prophets speak of times hundreds and even thousands of years in the future?

Why does the book of James follow Paul's epistles? James was written before Paul's epistles....maybe because it fits chronologically with how human history will play out.
There's so much error in what you just said, but I'll only address one of your more obvious mistakes.

So, according to you, "the Gentile church will be caught up and the Lord will turn his attention to Israel once again", and "the book of James and Hebrews will be vital for the Jews during that time period".

If such is indeed the case (it isn't...not even close), then perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining to me/us how these allegedly end-times, tribulation Jews ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO CALL FOR THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH, EKKLESIA, AT THIS TIME, WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN STATED BELIEFS, THE CHURCH WON'T EVEN BE HERE.

Next...
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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None.

BUT these CHRISTIAN Israelites to whom James was writing and I all belong to the same body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." (I Corinthians 12:13).

You know, just like the Bible actually teaches.
Paul gave up his " from the tribe of Benjamin " ect when he became a Christian.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
There's so much error in what you just said, but I'll only address one of your more obvious mistakes.

So, according to you, "the Gentile church will be caught up and the Lord will turn his attention to Israel once again", and "the book of James and Hebrews will be vital for the Jews during that time period".

If such is indeed the case (it isn't...not even close), then perhaps you wouldn't mind explaining to me/us how these allegedly end-times, tribulation Jews ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO CALL FOR THE ELDERS OF THE CHURCH, EKKLESIA, AT THIS TIME, WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOUR OWN STATED BELIEFS, THE CHURCH WON'T EVEN BE HERE.

Next...
The biblical definition of church is Gods called out people, not necessarily the body of Christ. The church in the Old Testament was the nation of Israel.

Acts 7
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
39 To whom our fathers would not obey, but thrust him from them, and in their hearts turned back again into Egypt,

Gods church in the tribulation will again be Israel.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Paul gave up his " from the tribe of Benjamin " ect when he became a Christian.
No, he didn't.

For example, in his epistle to the Romans, which was obviously written AFTER Paul "became a Christian", we read:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1)

What is it about "I am...of the tribe of Benjamin" that you don't understand?

How many times do you have to publicly be shown that you're in error before you'll finally repent?

Of course, I realize that you were referring to the following, but, even then, you got it wrong:

Philippians chapter 3

[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Here, ironically, Paul was warning the saints at Philippi to "beware of the concision", or circumcision, OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU, who have "confidence in the flesh" (vs. 3).

In the context of the same, Paul said that certain things which were once counted as "gain to me (him)", he now "counted loss for Christ" (vs. 7).

Of course, those certain things, in context, were things like his fleshly circumcision, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin (his national heritage), being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, being a Pharisee, etc., etc., etc. (vss. 5-6).

Anyhow, Paul didn't give up his "tribe of Benjamin" heritage.

Instead, he merely rightly recognized that it counted for nothing because all that ultimately matters is "being found in him" (vs. 9) or Christ.

Just for the record.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,131
3,689
113
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
This is what Paul thought about his past life as a Jew and tribe member...
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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No, he didn't.

For example, in his epistle to the Romans, which was obviously written AFTER Paul "became a Christian", we read:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1)

What is it about "I am...of the tribe of Benjamin" that you don't understand?

How many times do you have to publicly be shown that you're in error before you'll finally repent?

Of course, I realize that you were referring to the following, but, even then, you got it wrong:

Philippians chapter 3

[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Here, ironically, Paul was warning the saints at Philippi to "beware of the concision", or circumcision, OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU, who have "confidence in the flesh" (vs. 3).

In the context of the same, Paul said that certain things which were once counted as "gain to me (him)", he now "counted loss for Christ" (vs. 7).

Of course, those certain things, in context, were things like his fleshly circumcision, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin (his national heritage), being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, being a Pharisee, etc., etc., etc. (vss. 5-6).

Anyhow, Paul didn't give up his "tribe of Benjamin" heritage.

Instead, he merely rightly recognized that it counted for nothing because all that ultimately matters is "being found in him" (vs. 9) or Christ.

Just for the record.
Just for the record Paul never greeted ' Paul from the tribe of ..." No it was " Paul an apostle of Jesus or " Paul a servant of Jesus christ .. And then check who he writes to . Things different are not the same .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
No, he didn't.

For example, in his epistle to the Romans, which was obviously written AFTER Paul "became a Christian", we read:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1)

What is it about "I am...of the tribe of Benjamin" that you don't understand?

How many times do you have to publicly be shown that you're in error before you'll finally repent?

Of course, I realize that you were referring to the following, but, even then, you got it wrong:

Philippians chapter 3

[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Here, ironically, Paul was warning the saints at Philippi to "beware of the concision", or circumcision, OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU, who have "confidence in the flesh" (vs. 3).

In the context of the same, Paul said that certain things which were once counted as "gain to me (him)", he now "counted loss for Christ" (vs. 7).

Of course, those certain things, in context, were things like his fleshly circumcision, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin (his national heritage), being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, being a Pharisee, etc., etc., etc. (vss. 5-6).

Anyhow, Paul didn't give up his "tribe of Benjamin" heritage.

Instead, he merely rightly recognized that it counted for nothing because all that ultimately matters is "being found in him" (vs. 9) or Christ.

Just for the record.
' confidence in the flesh '? im not the one who believes i have to endure to the end to be saved. I'm saved right now .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
No, he didn't.

For example, in his epistle to the Romans, which was obviously written AFTER Paul "became a Christian", we read:

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin." (Romans 11:1)

What is it about "I am...of the tribe of Benjamin" that you don't understand?

How many times do you have to publicly be shown that you're in error before you'll finally repent?

Of course, I realize that you were referring to the following, but, even then, you got it wrong:

Philippians chapter 3

[1] Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.
[2] Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
[3] For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
[4] Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
[5] Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
[6] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[7] But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
[8] Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
[9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
[10] That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
[11] If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Here, ironically, Paul was warning the saints at Philippi to "beware of the concision", or circumcision, OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU, who have "confidence in the flesh" (vs. 3).

In the context of the same, Paul said that certain things which were once counted as "gain to me (him)", he now "counted loss for Christ" (vs. 7).

Of course, those certain things, in context, were things like his fleshly circumcision, being of the stock of Israel and the tribe of Benjamin (his national heritage), being a Hebrew of the Hebrews, being a Pharisee, etc., etc., etc. (vss. 5-6).

Anyhow, Paul didn't give up his "tribe of Benjamin" heritage.

Instead, he merely rightly recognized that it counted for nothing because all that ultimately matters is "being found in him" (vs. 9) or Christ.

Just for the record.
And just remember then the next time you quote ' there s neither Jew nor Greek ' when a ' difference comes up ..Seeing as it looks like you keep moving the goal posts.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
Just for the record Paul never greeted ' Paul from the tribe of ..." No it was " Paul an apostle of Jesus or " Paul a servant of Jesus christ .. And then check who he writes to . Things different are not the same .
In other words, you won't admit that what you said was wrong.

No surprise here.