Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?

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crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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It's good to see that the OP acknowledges God's working in a believer. I just don't think that it is wise and appropriate to question the FAITH and the works of a believer, to quantify them and to doubt the essence of works in salvation while believing at the same time that it is God who works in a believer both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Please don't color me stupid. I threw out a question for discussion, that's all. You seem to be reading into motives.

FAITH and actions are working together. When one intends to separate them, he creates division instead of unity in the spirit.
Yes, but which is first, and where did faith come from?

Let us have FAITH and work OUT that salvation which is OURS IN CHRIST, IN His body which is the Church of God, by WALKING as Jesus did when He walked in LOVE wherein "LOVE" according to John is to WALK IN OBEDIENCE TO HIS COMMANDS…"He became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him."
that part is a growing process.


Faith without works is dead.

IF I HAVE A FAITH that can move mountains, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I am nothing.

...FAITH WORKING IN LOVE.

FAITH and actions are working together.
Again I ask...
Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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We all must understand that we are justified by the faith of Christ. His work on the cross is enough. We only need to trust His sacrifice for our sins.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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We all must understand that we are justified by the faith of Christ. His work on the cross is enough. We only need to trust His sacrifice for our sins.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
How does 'the faith of Christ' differ from 'faith in Christ'?
Does Jesus give some of 'His faith' to some, while not others?
Or does He give the 'faith of Christ' to all?
How did you receive 'the faith of Christ?
Did it take faith on your part?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,096
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How does 'the faith of Christ' differ from 'faith in Christ'?
Does Jesus give some of 'His faith' to some, while not others?
Or does He give the 'faith of Christ' to all?
How did you receive 'the faith of Christ?
Did it take faith on your part?
The faith of Christ comes from Him where as faith in Christ is our own puny faith which waivers. Christ’s faith was on display in His life and His cross.
 

corazondeldei

Active member
Apr 17, 2019
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Please don't color me stupid. I threw out a question for discussion, that's all. You seem to be reading into motives.


Yes, but which is first, and where did faith come from?


that part is a growing process.



Again I ask...
Faith/Works...How much faith? How much works?
There is one FAITH. (Ephesians 4:1-16)

Jesus said;
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

"he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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The faith of Christ comes from Him where as faith in Christ is our own puny faith which waivers. Christ’s faith was on display in His life and His cross.
I'm still interested in "How did you receive 'the faith of Christ?"
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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There is one FAITH. (Ephesians 4:1-16)

Jesus said;
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

"he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."
That still didn't answer my questions I asked...
Which is first (faith or works)?,
How much faith? How much works?
 

corazondeldei

Active member
Apr 17, 2019
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That still didn't answer my questions I asked...
Which is first (faith or works)?,
How much faith? How much works?
If you can't accept what Jesus said then consider this,

NIV1984 Romans 11:13-24
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Then answer Paul's question...

NIV1984 Romans 3:3-4
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
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Yes, but which is first, and where did faith come from?
The work of faith or labor as a labor of love. It cannot be separate . Faith works just as planned .No plan (faith) no work

The faith in Hebrews 11 is that of God's not of our own selves lest any man boast. Without the faith of Christ revealed to us no man could please Him .He is the source of our brand new born again faith previously having none .(Not little nothing ) , His faith working in us is a work. If he does not do the work of grow in us then the faith is dead .

The faith is the plan. "Let there be" pronounces the good work of God
 

corazondeldei

Active member
Apr 17, 2019
151
33
28
56
If you can't accept what Jesus said then consider this,

NIV1984 Romans 11:13-24
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Then answer Paul's question...

NIV1984 Romans 3:3-4
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
Faith WITHOUT works is dead just as works WITHOUT faith is sin. Faith and actions are working together.

NIV1984 1 John 3:16-18
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.

NIV1984 1 Corinthians 8:1-3
We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. But the man who loves God is known by God.

NIV1984 Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

NIV1984 1 John 2:3-6
We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
There is one FAITH. (Ephesians 4:1-16)

Jesus said;
Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; obey it, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

"he who STANDS FIRM TO THE END WILL BE SAVED."

Yes one work of the Faith of God or you could say desire of God who is of one mind and always does what The Father and Son working together in perfect harmony and submissiveness to each other .In order to establish the government of God .it takes two or three working together.

Loving Authority + Willing Submission = The peace of God (the father and the son). The blessing that surpasses all human understanding.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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If you can't accept what Jesus said then consider this,

NIV1984 Romans 11:13-24
I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Then answer Paul's question...

NIV1984 Romans 3:3-4
What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God’s faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: “So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.”
I was hoping you'd answer my questions. But seeing you won't or can't...I'll pass.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
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The work of faith or labor as a labor of love. It cannot be separate . Faith works just as planned .No plan (faith) no work

The faith in Hebrews 11 is that of God's not of our own selves lest any man boast. Without the faith of Christ revealed to us no man could please Him .He is the source of our brand new born again faith previously having none .(Not little nothing ) , His faith working in us is a work. If he does not do the work of grow in us then the faith is dead .

The faith is the plan. "Let there be" pronounces the good work of God
OK, if it can't be separated, why do the cults have good works but no true faith?
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,096
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I'm still interested in "How did you receive 'the faith of Christ?"
As the Scripture says, by believing the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The law produced self righteousness by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord in which Paul was blameless, man’s testimony. But God’s righteousness is through the faith of Jesus Christ which is His testimony.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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I'm still interested in "How did you receive 'the faith of Christ?"
As the Scripture says, by believing the gospel of Christ.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

The law produced self righteousness by walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord in which Paul was blameless, man’s testimony. But God’s righteousness is through the faith of Jesus Christ which is His testimony.
So what you are saying is that by faith IN Christ you received the faith OF Christ, which to me is an exercise in semantics.
For how can one have the faith OF Christ without first believing IN Christ?
 
Mar 28, 2016
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OK, if it can't be separated, why do the cults have good works but no true faith?
I would offer. Good works do not produce faith . The man in Mathew 7 had turned it( faith) upside down as a worker of iniquity.

He was not faulted for doing wonderful works holding out the seed or watering it. God is not served by human hands in that way.
He used a Ass an unclean animal used to represent unbelief (no faith ) that must be redeemed by a lamb. The good news (gospel) is it stopped the madness of that false prophet Balaam ..

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The faith that cults come under which is really no faith in respect to God. is one created by an oral tradition (as a source of common faith) of those who go above the one and only true source of faith . Jesus in Mathew perform the work of His father, three time he said it is written As weakened as his human fleshly mind was (no food 40 days) he would not believe in the things seen...... all the kingdom and all there temporal glory as to what the eyes see. and rather worship the father of lies, fallen angel.

One doing so in his own puffed up mind... but Jesus gave glory to the father not seen. again and again said as it is written,. With the word it representing faith .The holy place of God.

Cults simply puff up their own fleshly mind and create illusions as oral traditions . God sends the a strong delusion or his faith so that they can beleive.........God. Without it working in the believer no man can believe Him not seen

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,Colosaains2 :18
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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I would offer. Good works do not produce faith . The man in Mathew 7 had turned it( faith) upside down as a worker of iniquity.

He was not faulted for doing wonderful works holding out the seed or watering it. God is not served by human hands in that way.
He used a Ass an unclean animal used to represent unbelief (no faith ) that must be redeemed by a lamb. The good news (gospel) is it stopped the madness of that false prophet Balaam ..

Matthew 7:21-23 King James Version (KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The faith that cults come under which is really no faith in respect to God. is one created by an oral tradition (as a source of common faith) of those who go above the one and only true source of faith . Jesus in Mathew perform the work of His father, three time he said it is written As weakened as his human fleshly mind was (no food 40 days) he would not believe in the things seen...... all the kingdom and all there temporal glory as to what the eyes see. and rather worship the father of lies, fallen angel.

One doing so in his own puffed up mind... but Jesus gave glory to the father not seen. again and again said as it is written,. With the word it representing faith .The holy place of God.

Cults simply puff up their own fleshly mind and create illusions as oral traditions . God sends the a strong delusion or his faith so that they can beleive.........God. Without it working in the believer no man can believe Him not seen

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,Colosaains2 :18
Some cults run off oral traition but some simply take Scripture and twist it, like the serpent in the Garden.

Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV
[21] "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. [22] Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' [23] And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Should be coupled with...

John 10:26-29 NKJV
[26] But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. [27] My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. [28] And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. [29] My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

See, Jesus knows His sheep and will not cast them into eternal fire. They are born again, being known by the Father and Jesus.