Ferguson's Paradox and the Trinity

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soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#21
The OP brought up #3 with gears and In nature the #4 may be more likely to occur. Is there any significance to the #4?
I can't see the picture of #4, so I don't know how to say, if you can help me transfer this picture to the upload freeimage site, maybe my network can work for me.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#22
I can't see the picture of #4, so I don't know how to say, if you can help me transfer this picture to the upload freeimage site, maybe my network can work for me.
Nothing about image. The smallest piece of any element like Aluminum or Iron is the atom and the atom has electrons, protons and neutrons and the forces which hold it together. 4 parts ....Also 4 equations describe the Electromagnetic spectrum. #4 seems to occur in nature in this way.
 

soberxp

Senior Member
May 3, 2018
2,511
482
83
#23
Nothing about image. The smallest piece of any element like Aluminum or Iron is the atom and the atom has electrons, protons and neutrons and the forces which hold it together. 4 parts ....Also 4 equations describe the Electromagnetic spectrum. #4 seems to occur in nature in this way.
I'm not very good at chemistry, but I can remember that when one element reacts and changes into another element, there's always an electron that escapes from the original element and goes to the new element, I don't remember exactly, but in each case there's only one thing that escapes from the original element and becomes part of the new element.

I think this phenomenon is indicative of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ.

If anyone is good at chemistry, please correct me.
 
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persistent

Guest
#24
I'm not very good at chemistry, but I can remember that when one element reacts and changes into another element, there's always an electron that escapes from the original element and goes to the new element, I don't remember exactly, but in each case there's only one thing that escapes from the original element and becomes part of the new element.

I think this phenomenon is indicative of the uniqueness of Jesus Christ.

If anyone is good at chemistry, please correct me.
Hey soberxp, You said it, "I'm not very good at chemistry". Chemistry is complex. And the only reactions I am aware of where an element becomes another element involve the nucleus of the atom. Radioactivity generates daughter elements and is a fairly common process here on earth. And fusion a process occurring in stars where the nuclei combine and I believe it is elements beyond iron that have their origin in the stars. I don't know chemistry at all and these processes are probably studied in physics which I am vaguely aware of. So if someone else has a better knowledge of these matters let's hear it.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
428
225
43
#25
To say the three persons of the Godhead are "manifestations" or "essences" is heresy!

In fact, here is a definition:

"Sabellianism: Sabellianism is named for its founder Sabellius (fl. 2nd century). It is sometimes referred to as modalistic monarchianism. The father, son, and holy ghost are three modes, roles, or faces of a single person, God. This, of course, implies that Jesus Christ was purely divine, without humanness, and therefore could not truly have suffered or died."

https://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html

Each of the three are persons (Latin) or in Greek as hypostaseis (pl) or singular: ὑπόστασις. That is:

"(in Trinitarian doctrine) each of the three persons of the Trinity, as contrasted with the unity of the Godhead."

"Mainstream Christian theologians nearly always reject “modalism”, meaning a one-self theory like that of Sabellius (fl. 220), an obscure figure who was thought to teach that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are sequential, non-essential modes, something like ways God interacts with his creation. Thus, in one epoch, God exists in the mode of Father, during the first century he exists as Son, and then after Christ’s resurrection and ascension, he exists as Holy Spirit (Leftow 2004, 327; McGrath 2007, 254–5; Pelikan 1971, 179). Sabellian modalism is usually rejected on the grounds that such modes are strictly sequential, or because they are not intrinsic features of God, or because they are intrinsic but not essential features of God. The first aspect of Sabellian modalism conflicts with episodes in the New Testament where the three appear simultaneously, such as the Baptism of Jesus in Matthew 3:16–7. The last two are widely held to be objectionable because it is held that a doctrine of the Trinity should tell us about how God really is, not merely about how God appears, or because a trinitarian doctrine should express (some of) God’s essence. Sabellian and other ancient modalists are sometimes called “monarchians” because they upheld the sole monarchy of the Father, or “patripassians” for their (alleged) acceptance of the view that the Father (and not only the Son) suffered in the life of the man Jesus."

According to Karl Barth:
"As God is in Himself Father from all eternity, He begets Himself as the Son from all eternity. As He is the Son from all eternity, He is begotten of Himself as the Father from all eternity. In this eternal begetting of Himself and being begotten of Himself, He posits Himself a third time as the Holy Spirit, that is, as the love which unites Him in Himself." (Barth 1956, 1)

All of Barth’s capitalized pronouns here refer to one and the same self, the self-revealing God, eternally existing in three ways. Similarly, Rahner says that God:

"…is – at once and necessarily – the unoriginate who mediates himself to himself (Father), the one who is in truth uttered for himself (Son), and the one who is received and accepted in love for himself (Spirit) – and… as a result of this, he [i.e. God] is the one who can freely communicate himself." (Rahner 1997, 101–2)

Similarly, theologian Alastair McGrath writes that:
…when we talk about God as one person, we mean one person in the modern sense of the word [i.e. a self], and when we talk about God as three persons, we mean three persons in the ancient sense of the word[i.e. a persona or role that is played]. (McGrath 1988, 131)​
One good way to prove the Son is eternal is to ask this:

Has the Father always been Father? Is the Father eternally Father? If yes, then how are you a Father without a son?
 
P

persistent

Guest
#26
For those who know....gear teeth are highly complicated feats of engineering....they must be identical to mesh or else they will jam up. Usually the number of teeth determines the size of the gear circumference made.
OH JohnDB, this post got me started and where it goes who knows. A couple more natural 4's>>>>DNA.....A..C....T...G....

Thermodynamics

There are four laws of thermodynamics. They talk about temperature, heat, work, and entropy. They are used in thermodynamics and other sciences, for example chemistry.

Thermodynamics has three main laws: the first law, the second law, and the third law. Then there was another law, called the "zeroth law." The law of conservation of mass is also an important idea in thermodynamics, but it is not called a law.

3 laws plus 1? like the atom 3 particles plus 1 force?

There is a thread on this chat that has mentioned Gematria, which has to do with numbers related to the Bible. Some years ago I was following Jimmy Brown of Grace& Truth Ministries in Tennessee and he also taught some on this topic. I never had an interest and am only guessing that the #4 is related to man according to Gematria.

One other thought; At the time Paul was in Athens the Pythagorean teaching may have been prevalent and that would have involved the #3 possibly. Another thread on this chat claiming AA as Satanic may have been assuming so, as the AA symbol is a triangle circumscribed with a circle. Pythagoras however was concerned with the right triangle and AA uses the equilateral.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,304
5,672
113
#27
The easiest analogy of the trinity for me is the internet.

You have Amazon.com server (God the Father)

You have the connection between my laptop and that server (God the Son)

And you have the electricity traveling between the two (God the Spirit)

Are they three different things? Yes.

Are they one? Yes.
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,990
1,417
113
Midwest
#28
I believe it takes THIS:
admit that they can be wrong or are wrong but they do so because they have some form of humility.
To DO this:
The most important thing is to acknowledge The Deity and Perfection of Jesus. That is why there is soul-cleansing Power in His Blood. We serve a Living and All-Powerful Savior Who is without beginning and without end.
Praise His Precious Name!

Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II)!
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,990
1,417
113
Midwest
#29
The Godhead is one of the easiest things in the world to understand. An Elementary School student could figure it out. The problem is believing the answer.
Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II research?).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...
 

GRACE_ambassador

Well-known member
Feb 22, 2021
2,990
1,417
113
Midwest
#30
op: paradox and Trinity?
Simplest I know of:

1) time, space, and matter = ONE universe?

2) proton, electron, and neutron = ONE atom?

3) Scripture about ONE human person =

1Th 5:23​
"And the very God of Peace Sanctify you wholly; and I pray​
God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved​
blameless unto the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ."​

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided
(+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY! = ONE wonderful life?
 
Oct 15, 2022
99
22
8
#31
To say the three persons of the Godhead are "manifestations" or "essences" is heresy!
No. In fact, what you posted is heresy. Moreover, instead of backing your false statement with verses, you quoted a 'definition' that is outside of the Bible.

I prefer to believe the Bible instead.
 
Oct 15, 2022
99
22
8
#33
Those that wish to understand the Godhead should begin here...

Hebrews 11:3 - "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

The first step is to actually believe the verse.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,701
113
#34
Interesting to note the Bible says there are 7 spirits of God.
You can find them in Isaiah 11 listed ;)
Isaiah 11:2
“And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;”

I'm sure that the Spirit of the Lord contains all the attributes mentioned above (except for fear perhaps).

The Holy Spirit has many attributes, facets, and manifestations, but there is only One Holy Spirit.
 
Oct 15, 2022
99
22
8
#35
I don't know chemistry at all and these processes are probably studied in physics which I am vaguely aware of. So if someone else has a better knowledge of these matters let's hear it.
The word 'Amber' is where we get our modern word for Electron...

Ezekiel 1:4 - "And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire."

"Both electric and electricity are derived from the Latin ēlectrum (also the root of the alloy of the same name), which came from the Greek word for amber, (ēlektron)."

Electron - Wikipedia

Ezekiel was being shown visions of Quantum Mechanics. More specifically, Ezekiel was being show a 'whirling' Atom in the form of a common Bohr model.

The 'Wheel in the middle of a Wheel' is what Science calls 'Electron Shells' or 'Orbitals'. Two Wheels would be Chemical Elements like Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen. These are the basic building blocks of Life...

Ezekiel 1:16 - "The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel."

Nitrogen.png

The Electrons orbiting are the 'Eyes' that are 'round about'...

Ezekiel 1:18 - "As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four."

Again, the 'Rings' are the Electron Shells. The Holy Ghost Spirit was 'in the Wheels'...

Ezekiel 1:20 - "Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels."

Thus, the 'Eyes' are Electrons and the Spirit of God. It is the 'Power' (literally Electromagnetism) of the Holy Ghost.

You now have one third of the Godhead Mystery solved. This pattern is found elsewhere in the Bible, for example...

Matthew 6:22 - "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

Light is Electromagnetism. The Word of God teaches us that the Electron is called the 'Eye' in the Bible. This would make sense since it is the Eye that can see the Rainbow of the Electromagnetic Specrum.

Another example would be the 'Stone with Seven Eyes'...

Zechariah 3:9 - "For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

Seven Eyes = Seven Electrons

This would be Nitrogen, which is what the Nitrogenous Bases (A,C,G,T) of DNA are made of. Naturally, there will be a new 'engraving' on the Genetics of Man (Stone with Seven Eyes) one day to remove sin.

Nucleobases are like the Word of God in our DNA. The Blood of Jesus is represented by the Lamb with 'Seven Eyes', representing the Seed of Abraham.

Ultimately, Ezekiel was being shown the 'Word Made Flesh'. It was a very powerful Prophecy of the future incarnation of Jesus.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,304
5,672
113
#37
The word 'Amber' is where we get our modern word for Electron...

Ezekiel 1:4 - "And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire."

"Both electric and electricity are derived from the Latin ēlectrum (also the root of the alloy of the same name), which came from the Greek word for amber, (ēlektron)."

Electron - Wikipedia

Ezekiel was being shown visions of Quantum Mechanics. More specifically, Ezekiel was being show a 'whirling' Atom in the form of a common Bohr model.

The 'Wheel in the middle of a Wheel' is what Science calls 'Electron Shells' or 'Orbitals'. Two Wheels would be Chemical Elements like Carbon, Nitrogen, Oxygen. These are the basic building blocks of Life...

Ezekiel 1:16 - "The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel."


The Electrons orbiting are the 'Eyes' that are 'round about'...

Ezekiel 1:18 - "As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four."

Again, the 'Rings' are the Electron Shells. The Holy Ghost Spirit was 'in the Wheels'...

Ezekiel 1:20 - "Whithersoever the spirit was to go, they went, thither was their spirit to go; and the wheels were lifted up over against them: for the spirit of the living creature was in the wheels."

Thus, the 'Eyes' are Electrons and the Spirit of God. It is the 'Power' (literally Electromagnetism) of the Holy Ghost.

You now have one third of the Godhead Mystery solved. This pattern is found elsewhere in the Bible, for example...

Matthew 6:22 - "The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light."

Light is Electromagnetism. The Word of God teaches us that the Electron is called the 'Eye' in the Bible. This would make sense since it is the Eye that can see the Rainbow of the Electromagnetic Specrum.

Another example would be the 'Stone with Seven Eyes'...

Zechariah 3:9 - "For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day."

Seven Eyes = Seven Electrons

This would be Nitrogen, which is what the Nitrogenous Bases (A,C,G,T) of DNA are made of. Naturally, there will be a new 'engraving' on the Genetics of Man (Stone with Seven Eyes) one day to remove sin.

Nucleobases are like the Word of God in our DNA. The Blood of Jesus is represented by the Lamb with 'Seven Eyes', representing the Seed of Abraham.

Ultimately, Ezekiel was being shown the 'Word Made Flesh'. It was a very powerful Prophecy of the future incarnation of Jesus.
Wow, so all this time the Bible is a book on chemistry!
 
P

persistent

Guest
#38
Nothing about image. The smallest piece of any element like Aluminum or Iron is the atom and the atom has electrons, protons and neutrons and the forces which hold it together. 4 parts ....Also 4 equations describe the Electromagnetic spectrum. #4 seems to occur in nature in this way.
In the early years of Christianity, the Church Fathers commented extensively on numerology.

The Fathers repeatedly condemned the magical use of numbers which had descended from Babylonian sources to the Pythagoreans and Gnostics of their times. They denounced any system of philosophy which rested upon an exclusively numerical basis. Even so, they almost unanimously regarded the numbers of Holy Writ as full of mystical meaning, and they considered the interpretation of these mystical meanings as an important branch of exegesis. There was reluctance in the Christian teachers of the early centuries to push this recognition of the significance of numbers to extremes.
 
P

persistent

Guest
#39
Ultimately, Ezekiel was being shown the 'Word Made Flesh'. It was a very powerful Prophecy of the future incarnation of Jesus.
In Jewish mystical study, numbers were believed to be a means for understanding the divine. This marriage between the symbolic and the physical found its pinnacle in the creation of the Tabernacle. The numerical dimensions of the temple are a "microcosm of creation ... that God used to create the Olamot-Universes."[1]

1[edit]
  • One is our God, in heaven and on earth - אחד אלוהינו שבשמיים ובארץ
2[edit]
  • Two are the tablets of the covenant - שני לוחות הברית
  • There are two inclinations - good (yetzer hatov) and bad (yetzer hara)
3[edit]
  • Three are the Fathers (Patriarchs - שלושה אבות (Abraham, Isaac and Jacob)
  • The three sons of Noah (Ham, Shem and Japheth)
  • Number of aliyot on a non-Yom Tov Monday and Thursday Torah reading and number of aliyot in Shabbat Mincha
  • The Holy of Holies occupied one-third of the area of the Temple (and previously, Tabernacle)
  • The angels declared that God was "Holy, holy, holy" for a total of three times[2]
  • The Priestly Blessing contains three sections
4[edit]
  • Four are the Mothers (Matriarchs) - ארבע אימהות (Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, and Leah)
  • The number of aliyot on Rosh Chodesh
  • At the Passover Seder four cups of wine are drunk, and four expressions of redemption are recited
  • Both the heavens[3] and earth[4] were described as having four sides or corners, similar to the cardinal directions.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,304
5,672
113
#40
In the early years of Christianity, the Church Fathers commented extensively on numerology.

The Fathers repeatedly condemned the magical use of numbers which had descended from Babylonian sources to the Pythagoreans and Gnostics of their times. They denounced any system of philosophy which rested upon an exclusively numerical basis. Even so, they almost unanimously regarded the numbers of Holy Writ as full of mystical meaning, and they considered the interpretation of these mystical meanings as an important branch of exegesis. There was reluctance in the Christian teachers of the early centuries to push this recognition of the significance of numbers to extremes.
God set the stars in the heaven for signs of the appointed feasts. Satan corrupts this with "astrology". Still, fact is that the stars, solar eclipses, lunar eclipses and asteroids are given as signs. This is told us repeatedly and consistently throughout both the Old and New Testaments. Why the big attack? Satan doesn't want us to know the times, that is not hypothetical, we are told in Daniel that this is the case.

Likewise, every letter, every word and every phrase in the Bible either in Hebrew or Greek has a numerical equivalent. In John they caught 153 fish at the end of that gospel, the number 153 = the numerical value of the sons of God. Samson pushed out the pillars in Judges causing the temple of Baal to collapse. The numerical value of "pillar" is the same as "the church". Hence Paul tells us in the NT that the church is the pillar of the truth. This is not "numerology". No one is trying to divine some secret message, it is simply that God is more amazing than people realize.