Former pentecostal

[CS1]

Just in case you don't read everyones posts because the above reason makes no sense in the light of

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

2 Timothy 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

2 Timothy 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.

2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2 Timothy 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.


BEING DELIVERED would mean those things WERE taken away, WHILE THE THORN was not.

The context of 2cor chapter 12 is not parallel with 2tim 3.

God did save Paul after he was stoned, beaten, shipwrecked, bitten by a viper, imprisoned more than once flogged,

Paul, Himself says in 2cor chapter 11, is a Unit chapter with chapter 12 context.

ASs Paul said before he makes his statement in chapter 12.


Whatever anyone else dares to boast(seen in chp 12) about—I am speaking as a fool—I also dare to boast about. 22 Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they Abraham’s descendants? So am I. 23 Are they servants of Christ? (I am out of my mind to talk like this.) I am more.

I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26 I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. 27 I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. 28 Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. 29 Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?

30 If I must boast, I will boast of the things that show my weakness. 31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.

Then after this, Paul says in Chapter 12


:1 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord.


8 Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 10 That is why, for Christ’s sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.


The context of what Paul meant about this message OF Satan starts in chapter 11 and ends in chapter 12: 19

 

[CS1]

Perfect in the sense of completion... maturity... lacking nothing.

the empowering of the Holy Spirit and the word of God is what completes the believer. Jesus said that in John 14

 

[CS1]

Definitely tells us HE WOULD NEVER PRAY to have those things he knew he must suffer taken from him then, does it?

LOL, Paul said he prayed to have them stopped. Three times he prayed he said. He got his answer From the Lord. The word of God says HE would not allow us to suffer above what we are able. That is Promise.

 

[CS1]

So I decided that cessationist are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect" for when gifts will cease. Now we know how to pray and live. I was a pentecostal for most of my life. But I find that if I ask in prayer the one giving tongues is an evil spirit. You've got to be careful. Not every spirit is of God. Try the spirits.

One thing is for certain after many posts. There has not been any scripture to support the idea or claims of

"So I decided that cessationists are right. The Bible is " that which is perfect." found in 1cor 13:8-10. It is just not there.

 

[kleronomos]

LOL, Paul said he prayed to have them stopped. Three times he prayed he said. He got his answer From the Lord. The word of God says HE would not allow us to suffer above what we are able. That is Promise.

No, PAUL DID NOT PRAY TO HAVE THEM STOPPED. Paul KNEW they went with the territory.

Can you show me where he prayed to have all the persecutions stopped. I would like to see where THAT is written, not what is 'supposed' from something that is, If Paul did have some thorn in his side, HOW exactly do you think that prayer would have gone?



PAUL KNOWING we were appointed to them PRAYED to have them taken away? Preaching no man should be moved by them THEN praying they be taken away? That is like speaking with a forked tongue, isn't it.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.


Don't you think Paul knew this command?
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Even in the end
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

He knew all he was to suffer and he finished his course. ASKING that his 'course' be removed from him, is not biblical. The thorn in his side, yes, but asking that all the persecutions be taken away would have been asking for HIS MINISTRY to be taken away.

So we must agree to disagree, but I do Paul NEVER suffered more than he was able.

 

[kleronomos]

Wouldn't a thorn in your side cause you to always be slightly bent forward?

I am moving from eyesight as the thorn, to an actual thorn of some sort, keeping him humble, never allowed to stand tall and proud and look conceited.

 

[kleronomos]

Wouldn't a thorn in your side cause you to always be slightly bent forward?

I am moving from eyesight as the thorn, to an actual thorn of some sort, keeping him humble, never allowed to stand tall and proud and look conceited.

Praise ye the Lord!!!

 

[CS1]

No, PAUL DID NOT PRAY TO HAVE THEM STOPPED. Paul KNEW they went with the territory.

Can you show me where he prayed to have all the persecutions stopped. I would like to see where THAT is written, not what is 'supposed' from something that is, If Paul did have some thorn in his side, HOW exactly do you think that prayer would have gone?



PAUL KNOWING we were appointed to them PRAYED to have them taken away? Preaching no man should be moved by them THEN praying they be taken away? That is like speaking with a forked tongue, isn't it.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.


Don't you think Paul knew this command?
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Even in the end
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

He knew all he was to suffer and he finished his course. ASKING that his 'course' be removed from him, is not biblical. The thorn in his side, yes, but asking that all the persecutions be taken away would have been asking for HIS MINISTRY to be taken away.

So we must agree to disagree, but I do Paul NEVER suffered more than he was able.

LOL, OK if you say so.

But Paul said in 2cor 12: 8

KJV 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

NKJV 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

Paul did that through Prayer, or do you think it was carrier Pigeon?

 

[kleronomos]

LOL, OK if you say so.

But Paul said in 2cor 12: 8

KJV 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

NKJV 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.

Paul did that through Prayer, or do you think it was carrier Pigeon?

Shirley you are not asking me if I thought Paul attached a note to a carrier Pigeon.

and having covered this already, I'll just let it be for now.

 

[Amanuensis]

The context of Paul's throne in the flesh is said in 2cor 12:7-11


Paul says

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


Because The Lord said to Paul " My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. "


10 Therefore I(Paul) take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
the description of what Paul prayed to have the Lord take away was

listed: infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake:

Yes, but there is probably a connection. The person who was an enemy of Christ who was stirring up persecution for him was the thorn in the side. The infirmities are the things he suffered from the persecution that the Thorn in his side stirred up where ever he went.

He would be doing well gaining converts in a synagogue and even the rulers of the synagogue liked what he was saying and along came this "Thorn in his side" a messenger of satan with letters from Jerusalem Sanhedrin to stir up trouble and threaten the rules of the synagogue and they would kick Paul out and so he would set up the church there with those converts that believed and then go to another city, and start in the synagogues and the same messenger of satan would come along and stir up trouble again.

It fits the narrative of the book of Acts and the history that Luke documented.

 

[CS1]

No, PAUL DID NOT PRAY TO HAVE THEM STOPPED. Paul KNEW they went with the territory.

Can you show me where he prayed to have all the persecutions stopped. I would like to see where THAT is written, not what is 'supposed' from something that is, If Paul did have some thorn in his side, HOW exactly do you think that prayer would have gone?



PAUL KNOWING we were appointed to them PRAYED to have them taken away? Preaching no man should be moved by them THEN praying they be taken away? That is like speaking with a forked tongue, isn't it.


1 Thessalonians 3:1 Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith 3 That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. 5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.


Don't you think Paul knew this command?
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. 25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


Even in the end
2Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

2Timothy 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.

2Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

2Timothy 4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

He knew all he was to suffer and he finished his course. ASKING that his 'course' be removed from him, is not biblical. The thorn in his side, yes, but asking that all the persecutions be taken away would have been asking for HIS MINISTRY to be taken away.

So we must agree to disagree, but I do Paul NEVER suffered more than he was able.

Yes, Paul prayed for the removal of the thorn in the flesh

 

[wattie]

the empowering of the Holy Spirit and the word of God is what completes the believer. Jesus said that in John 14

Yes it is. I agree

 

[Amanuensis]

Definitely tells us HE WOULD NEVER PRAY to have those things he knew he must suffer taken from him then, does it?

He could ask for a particular person, messenger of satan, Thorn in his side that was interrupting his Church planting efforts to be stopped and it would not mean that he was asking God to deliver him from all forms of persecution.

 

[Polar]

Wouldn't a thorn in your side cause you to always be slightly bent forward?

I am moving from eyesight as the thorn, to an actual thorn of some sort, keeping him humble, never allowed to stand tall and proud and look conceited.

So he had a thorn...from a sweet rose no doubt...stuck in his side and ne'er the person born who could pull it out

I am gobsmacked. Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Hiccups also seem a possibility.

Self control prevents me from saying some things

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

someone brought up a good point in our discussion so it made me do some serious research. translation can really DESTROY the meaning of the Inspired Holy Word of God.

let's examine 1 Corinthians 13:10 from the 1,100 year later [1516 textus receptus] Latin to English translation:
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
^
the key word is the ((placement)) of the word "THAT" in the beginning of this Verse.

this particular placement does give some life to the idea this [[is not]] speaking about Christ but an Object.

how this is placed in the 16th and 17th Century really destroys the original Greek Version from the 4th Century.


so let's look at the 4th Century Greek Text:
10 όταν, όμως, έχει έρθει το τέλειο, αυτό? εν μέρει θα αποτύχει.
10 when, however, the perfect has come, that; in part shall come to naught.
^
when we read it how it was originally written by Paul, now it makes more sense why the Church Fathers said this is the Glorified Jesus.
which gives more life and connection to Verse 12:
12 For now we see by means of a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face:

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

God hasn't given away his power!

No cessationist says that. The gift of miracles put away... not Gods power independently to heal and do miracles.

Epaphroditus....ye had heard that he had been sick. For indeed he was sick nigh unto death: but God Had MERCY On him (Phi 2:25-27)

Epaphroditus was healed. How did you miss that. ...That is a HEALING.

1) Neither @wattie nor I "missed" anything, but we believe "God Healed him." And:

2) Neither do we confuse This "GRACE/Mercy healing" From God, with the
[NOW ceased] "gift of healing" that was given "to men," so that:

"And these signs SHALL Follow them that believe; In My Name SHALL...
they lay hands on the sick, AND they Shall RECOVER" (Mark 16:17-18)

Apparently YOU must have Overlooked [Or "missed"?]:

I think if Paul had become a cessationist before he had finished penning the complete revelation it would have found it's way into the revelation.

Quite amazing how one can study for years, and then find This Truth
that "Paul was still penning" Before his death, Correct?:

2Ti_4:20
"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."
+
1Ti_5:23 "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's
sake and thine often infirmities."

In Light Of These Truths, how then is Paul a "continuationist"???
Thus, we still stand for God's Truth:

When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (I) [scroll to bottom of pg 18]
When Did the gift of tongues Cease? (II)

GRACE And Peace...

 

[kleronomos]

He could ask for a particular person, messenger of satan, Thorn in his side that was interrupting his Church planting efforts to be stopped and it would not mean that he was asking God to deliver him from all forms of persecution.

You are right, he absolutely could have. Let's take one last look at the context and WHAT THE THORN WAS ABOUT. WHY WAS IT PUT THERE.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

HE is glorying IN HIS INFIRMITIES. Not in himself but IN HIS INFIRMITIES. Are we even in agreement up to here? or are you reading this in another way? If so, please let me know


2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So that on earth NO ONE would exault him because he had received so much TRUTH from God and they would stop LOOKING to the ONE WHO gave it,

HE was given a thorn, something to KEEP HIM from being exaulted.

Does it sound right that he prayed that he would be KEPT from persecution so HE WOULD NOT BE EXAULTED ABOVE MEASURE? Is that what you are saying?

Are you also saying that something in his flesh that kept him from being exaulted, something like a thorn in his side, keep him bent over, keep him humble, is just out of the realm of possibilities?

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

 

[kleronomos]

So he had a thorn...from a sweet rose no doubt...stuck in his side and ne'er the person born who could pull it out

I am gobsmacked. Don't know whether to laugh or cry. Hiccups also seem a possibility.

Self control prevents me from saying some things

Again, does praying that persecutions be ended, keep him from being exalted above measure and if so HOW does that work?

 

[Amanuensis]

You are right, he absolutely could have. Let's take one last look at the context and WHAT THE THORN WAS ABOUT. WHY WAS IT PUT THERE.

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

2 Corinthians 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

2 Corinthians 12:5 Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.

HE is glorying IN HIS INFIRMITIES. Not in himself but IN HIS INFIRMITIES. Are we even in agreement up to here? or are you reading this in another way? If so, please let me know


2 Corinthians 12:6 For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

So that on earth NO ONE would exault him because he had received so much TRUTH from God and they would stop LOOKING to the ONE WHO gave it,

HE was given a thorn, something to KEEP HIM from being exaulted.

Does it sound right that he prayed that he would be KEPT from persecution so HE WOULD NOT BE EXAULTED ABOVE MEASURE? Is that what you are saying?

Are you also saying that something in his flesh that kept him from being exaulted, something like a thorn in his side, keep him bent over, keep him humble, is just out of the realm of possibilities?

2 Corinthians 12:8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Imagine this. He has great revelations and insight and the people are loving it and even the synagogue rulers are agreeing with his excellent exegesis and scriptural interpretations about Jesus from the OT. Then this Thorn in his side arrives and stirs things up and they throw him out.

He went from "oh your the next Elijah, in our eyes" which could be ego stroking, to "get out of here you Law breaker" which would be humbling. This would indeed keep him from getting an ego.

Asking the Thorn in his side to depart three times (possibly three different cities where the messenger of satan, that Thorn in his side, that enemy of Israel, followed him and stirred up trouble) The trouble resulted in infirmities but I think he was asking for the Thorn in his side to depart (not that general persecutions depart) because he (the thorn) was interrupting success in his church planting efforts.

God showed him that the persecution that the Thorn in his side (that person) was stirring up was going to be used by God to give Paul more power and grace. And when Paul figured that out he said. YES THEN. BRING IT.

 

[kleronomos]

Imagine this. He has great revelations and insight and the people are loving it and even the synagogue rulers are agreeing with his excellent exegesis and scriptural interpretations about Jesus from the OT. Then this Thorn in his side arrives and stirs things up and they throw him out.

He went from "oh your the next Elijah, in our eyes" which could be ego stroking, to "get out of here you Law breaker" which would be humbling. This would indeed keep him from getting an ego.

Asking the Thorn in his side to depart three times (possibly three different cities where the messenger of satan, that Thorn in his side, that enemy of Israel, followed him and stirred up trouble) The trouble resulted in infirmities but I think he was asking for the Thorn in his side to depart (not that general persecutions depart) because he (the thorn) was interrupting success in his church planting efforts.

God showed him that the persecution that the Thorn in his side (that person) was stirring up was going to be used by God to give Paul more power and grace. And when Paul figured that out he said. YES THEN. BRING IT.

The mystery of Iniquity doeth already work. That wasn't anything new. Where does it say that SATAN was stirring up people he was being persecuted by his own and if it had been little demons running around then

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.

18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.


Did that not apply to Paul?