Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Those of us who believe in “free will” likely struggle inwardly when we run across the below Scripture set. Day 242 of the timeline, chronological reading plan offers us two passages that, quite frankly, are baffling to at least me. They are as follows:

Ezekiel 14:9-10 NLT – “And if a prophet is deceived into giving a message, it is because I, the LORD, have deceived that prophet. I will lift my fist against such prophets and cut them off from the community of Israel. False prophets and those who seek their guidance will all be punished for their sins.”

Not that it is critical in the drawing principle that I’ll be pointing out shortly, but the quick background to the story is that God is expressing disdain for the idols that Israel had “set up” within their hearts. Simply put, the Lord was chewing out Israel through Ezekiel . . . and He doesn’t hold back. But look at what God is saying . . . the English is so utterly straightforward, you may have found that you needed to read the text five or six times to make sure you understood what the Lord was doing.

So, what is this? False prophets are “cut off” from the Lord’s community, or Vine. And who are these false prophets offering twisted advice? These are the ones whom the Lord caused to give twisted advice, which was punishable by that same Lord through their removal of the community of Israel. It doesn’t matter which translation you might use; they all convey the same basic concepts.

Ezekiel 14:9-10 seems odd in that if these prophets realized that the Lord was giving them improper knowledge and understood the consequences, they would have never uttered any words of prophecy. But the prophets, as the texts state, were deceived by God Himself. These causal acts do not seem very fair. This is a massive violation of a person’s sense of free will, for they were not allowed to make the choice that would determine their outcome. The Lord literally placed thoughts into the minds of the prophets, which, depending on the translation you use, would result in either the removal or destruction of them all. There were no choices given . . . the Lord completely controlled these prophets to fulfill His Eternal Plan.

What was the problem? They demonstrated themselves to be false prophets, and they indeed were. Who caused them to think, believe, and speak incorrect words that proved them to be wrong? God Himself. These men and perhaps women were not given a chance. They were perfectly and totally controlled to be deceived. They had no other choice but to disclose the deceptions that the Lord placed into their minds.

If anything regarding the two passages, it is imperative that we recognize the utter Power of our God, that He can cause people to think, believe, and speak according to predetermined Planning.

Ephesians 1:11 NLT – “Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.”

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 243 of the timeline, chronological reading plan gives us another unbelievably Powerful statement about the Nature of our God.

Ezekiel 17:24 ASV – “And all the trees of the field shall know that I, Jehovah, have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I, Jehovah, have spoken and have done it.”

But hold on, lets’ say that there Truly is “free will” . . . of what use is the unrestricted ability to choose if that choice has been removed by the fact that the Plan of the Lord cannot be overthrown? Or, do we [not] believe what the Bible says about our Sovereign God?

Job 42:2 CSB – “I know that you can do anything and no plan of yours can be thwarted.”

Obviously, verse 24 is not speaking just about trees but about us humans. The purpose of this verse is to state clearly that God is in complete control of all affairs. Verse 24 is one of hundreds where the Lord takes full responsibility for what we have said and done. We are a Work of God’s Power. All that has and is taking place is primarily to demonstrate the Power of God to those unseen Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. Humanity and all of creation is a performance.

Ephesians 3:9-11 NLT – “I was chosen to explain to everyone this mysterious plan that God, the Creator of all things, had kept secret from the beginning. God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.”

The Lord pre-determined what would happen on earth to these Rulers and Authorities. Through the Heavenly Scroll outlined in Isaiah, the Lord has called and continues to call out the actions of the physical world, down to the lives of owls and falcons. This text is also recorded to establish the Power and control of our Lord God.

Isaiah 34:15-17 NIV – “The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together. He allots their portions; his hand distributes them by measure. They will possess it forever and dwell there from generation to generation.”

The Purpose of creation is to astound those Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. We must not forget our position in the grand Plan of our Powerful, Almighty God.

So, if all of these Scriptures are correct, what is the use of possessing “free will”? The “free will” concept flies against what the Bible clearly states about the Plan of God.

Psalm 33:10 NKJV – “The LORD brings the counsel of the nations to nothing; He makes the plans of the peoples of no effect.”

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I was reminded of the concepts of Lions and Lambs and how they are prophesied to one day live at peace with one another. Therefore, we need to step back and take a look at Days 194 and 213 of the timeline, chronological reading plan. The passages are as follows:

Isaiah 11:6 NLT - 6 In that day the wolf and the lamb will live together; the leopard will lie down with the baby goat. The calf and the yearling will be safe with the lion, and a little child will lead them all.”

Isaiah 65:25 ASV – “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith Jehovah.”

Lions and lambs . . . what is the point and purpose of Isaiah referencing the nature of these animals? These sets of Scripture point out the Effectual Nature of the Gospel, which is that one who has received ultimate Grace, Righteousness, and Purity, all live peacefully with others. Before the reception of the Living and Effectual Gospel, a person might devour those of weaker status. Those without the Gospel use others for personal and financial gain; there is little to no Love for our brothers and sisters of humanity.

Having received the whole Gospel of Jesus Christ, a person falls in line with the concept of Holy Transformation. Those who receive Christ are Transformed not in their bodies but in their minds.

Romans 12:2 KJV – “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”

The question is, what is required for a person to begin the Transformation process? It is simple, a person must receive the Circumcision of Christ . . . the Holy Operation of Faith that transforms a person from Spiritual death to Spiritual Life.

Colossians 2:11, 13 NLT – “When you came to Christ, you were “circumcised,” but not by a physical procedure. Christ performed a spiritual circumcision--the cutting away of your sinful nature.” ... 13 “You were dead because of your sins and because your sinful nature was not yet cut away. Then God made you alive with Christ, for he forgave all our sins.”

To Love, as described in 1 Corinthians chapter 13, a person must receive the Circumcision of Christ. To Love our enemies, feed and take care of them, these acts cannot occur until a person receives the Circumcision of Christ. The process of being relieved of the Adamic Curse renders a person with an entirely new set of thoughts, ideas, and choices. This means, of course, that a person who has not received the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ is incapable of thinking and choosing Holy Love. The human will, at this point, is incomplete . . . It is, by Nature of the Sinful Nature, utterly incapable of pleasing the Lord.

Romans 8:6-8 ASV – “For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace: because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be: and they that are in the flesh cannot please God.”

As stated in previous posts, the Purpose of Creation was and is for the Lord to prove Himself to those unseen Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. When God Transforms an entire group of people, those of His True Flock, those Rulers and Authorities are put on full notice of the full Power of God. Only the True God of all is capable of making such a remarkable Transformation . . . the Transformation of group mindset. When people begin to get along with one another, this proves the Almighty Power of God.

1 John 3:14-19 NLT – “If we love our Christian brothers and sisters, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead. Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them. We know what real love is because Jesus gave up his life for us. So we also ought to give up our lives for our brothers and sisters. If someone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need but shows no compassion--how can God’s love be in that person? Dear children, let’s not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions. Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God.”

Again, those who are “dead” are considered as such because they have not received the Circumcision of Christ, a Holy Process that transforms a person’s scope and ability to Love, are pried wide open. Transformation of thought implies a limited sense of “free will,” if anything.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 250 of the timeline, chronological reading plan takes us directly back to Day 241, as 241 is a near mirror image of Ezekiel 36:25-27. In comparing these two passage sets, and with much consideration, we should all be amazed at the contents and what they both mean and imply.

Ezekiel 36:25-27 KJV - “Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”

A few days ago, we posted Ezekiel 11:19-20. It reads as follows:

Ezekiel 11:19-20 NKJV - “Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, “that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.”

What is the purpose of receiving a New Heart? Is this process what converts a person to a “New Man?”

Ephesians 4:22-24 NKJV – “. . . that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.” (Someone like Abraham . . . perhaps?)

And, of course, those who are Holy and Righteous are the ones who are “caused” to walk in the Lord’s statutes, meaning that they keep and do them. Their hearts have been “turned on,” so to speak. Spiritual Circumcision is the literal, Spiritual process of transforming the way a person thinks . . . this is one of the primary effects of the Circumcision of Christ.

Do you see the problem? If a person could simply choose to discontinue their sinful ways, why would all of the Lord’s Elect need to be given new Hearts and Spirits? If a person could merely select their path by their own will power, why must that person require the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ so as to be separated from the Curse (that motors sin)? The answer is: because a person has not yet been Redeemed of the Curse which causes literal confusion. That person is incapable of consistently doing the will of the Lord. Conversely, that same person consistently does the will of the one who has taken him or her captive . . . the Devil. On the inside and within alone time, that person does not reflect who he or she is while at church or when surrounded by "spiritual" people.

Furthermore, Circumcision of the Heart is the utter core of our Faith. Whether you disagree or have unreceptive feelings towards those Most Holy Words, never forget them, Circumcision of the Heart. The physical circumcision that Abraham received represents this exact Spiritual Circumcision of Christ, hence the following Holy Words from our All-Powerful God:

Genesis 17:1 NKJV – “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I [am] Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.”

And let us not forget the depth of Jesus's reign on earth:

John 8:58 NLT - 58 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I AM!"

Genesis 17:01 above is one of the single more important verses in the entire Bible, as these Words represent fundamental Spiritual Circumcision . . . which means that the Curse has been swept away by Christ. Those who have been given New Hearts are then inspired to “walk” before the Lord and to be considered “blameless.” Above, we should note that the Lord was not [asking] Abraham to “walk” and to be “blameless,” but more, these Words were a Holy Edict of the Lord. It was a Willful implanting by the Lord into Abraham to be as told he would be . . . “blameless.” Here, the Lord shows us that receiving Spiritual Circumcision results in “walking” in the Lord’s ways and being considered “blameless.” When a person is relieved of the Sinful Nature Curse, they are set free from the evil, inward pull and desire to do what their former Spiritual Father, Satan, was causing them to do.

Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:25-27 explain what occurred in Genesis 17:1, where Abraham was Purified and considered “Blameless,” for no one can hold this status without the Circumcision of Christ.

What are we getting at? The Spiritual Circumcision of Christ is what allows an entirely new set of desires . . . and thinking . . . and choices. One element of this New Mind of Christ is the ability to Love according to 1 Corinthians chapter 13. Very few have ever Loved according to 1 Cor chapter 13 (it is nearly impossible), but that is because very few have received the Spiritual Circumcision of Christ. We should be thankful, for Ezekiel 11:19-20 and Ezekiel 36:25-27 tell us precisely what the Circumcision of Christ is all about. They tell us the Holy Purpose, process, and Effect. And the ultimate Effect is a New person that continues to Spiritually grow until they receive their reward in New, Eternal Life.

The mindsets of those whose Father is the Devil are entirely different from those whose Father is God in Heaven. We think differently, and the differences are always consistent in their roots. Those of the Devil spend most of their day thinking of themselves in some form or another (and acting upon those thoughts). Those of God spend much of their day thinking about good, Righteous, and Holy things . . . but for others and not self. So, what is that wall of hostility that separates the two modes of thinking? Our thinking, behaviors, and ability to actually be Holy . . . these things hinge upon the Circumcision of Christ. Before being released from the Devil’s captivity, we thought and lived our lives in a manner that the Devil would approve of. But after Spiritual Circumcision (the removal of the Sinful Nature), we began to live our lives in new ways that God would agree.

If we say that “free will” exists, it is reasonable to say that it would be limited. The very purpose (and context) of the Bible revolves around the Power and control of God Almighty over His entire creation. At some point in these ongoing studies, the evidence should begin to mean something. It should begin to mount. Knowing and Understanding the Power of God places us into the special place and condition of possessing True Fear of the Lord. My hope is that by demonstrating this Power through these Scriptures, the Word itself will impose itself upon you and cause you to feel such an amazing, reverent feeling as True Fear of the Lord.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 251 of the timeine, chronological reading plan gives us another remarkable demonstration of our Powerful God. To the very words that humans will speak, God warns of exactly what Gog and his army will do in the distant future and what will happen to Israel. Finally, God warns of the depth of punishment Gog and his army will suffer.

Ezekiel 38:8-16 NLT - “A long time from now you will be called into action. In the distant future you will swoop down on the land of Israel, which will be enjoying peace after recovering from war and after its people have returned from many lands to the mountains of Israel. You and all your allies--a vast and awesome army--will roll down on them like a storm and cover the land like a cloud. “This is what the Sovereign LORD says: At that time evil thoughts will come to your mind, and you will devise a wicked scheme. You will say, ‘Israel is an unprotected land filled with unwalled villages! I will march against her and destroy these people who live in such confidence! I will go to those formerly desolate cities that are now filled with people who have returned from exile in many nations. I will capture vast amounts of plunder, for the people are rich with livestock and other possessions now. They think the whole world revolves around them!’ But Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish will ask, ‘Do you really think the armies you have gathered can rob them of silver and gold? Do you think you can drive away their livestock and seize their goods and carry off plunder?’ “Therefore, son of man, prophesy against Gog. Give him this message from the Sovereign LORD: When my people are living in peace in their land, then you will rouse yourself. You will come from your homeland in the distant north with your vast cavalry and your mighty army, and you will attack my people Israel, covering their land like a cloud. At that time in the distant future, I will bring you against my land as everyone watches, and my holiness will be displayed by what happens to you, Gog. Then all the nations will know that I am the LORD.”

This remarkable display of predictive and implementation Power . . . does this sound like “free will,” or does it sound like a preprogramming of the thoughts and actions of entire Nations? Exactly, we just read of a story where the Lord our God controlled the minds of hundreds of thousands of people to prove . . . exactly . . . who He is. We know that this is a story of total Power and control over humanity, for the Purpose is so that all Nations would know . . . exactly . . . who the Lord Truly is.

Power. The number one theme of the entire Old Testament is Power. “Then they will know that I am the Lord.” God reminds us of this in these exact words and other places with many variations of the phrase. Over and over, God makes His Power and control over creation obvious. He does not hold back in His obvious and blatant manipulation of inanimate objects and all life. God has been placing whales in the right place at just the right time for the Jonah’s of the world. Some say God has the whole world in His Hands. I think He does, which means that nothing done is outside of His awareness or Plan. God has an Eternal Plan, and we’re just along for the ride.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 256 of the timeline, chronological reading plan delivers! Daniel, chapter 1, verse 9, is pretty amazing. It reads as follows from the Jewish Tanakh:

Tanakh: - ". . . And God disposed the chief officer to be kind and compassionate toward Daniel.”

YHWH takes responsibility for causing the official to show favor and sympathy to Daniel. Again, the text is clear . . . God caused the chief officer to possess the desire to be kind and compassionate. If the Lord had not predisposed him to think of and feel a specific way about Daniel, the chief obviously would not have acted as he did. God would have no reason to intervene if the chief had intended to make that choice. But as I have said many times in the past, this moment in time was an opportunity for God to show and demonstrate His Almighty Power to influence and affect anyone and anything He so desires. The Lord is capable of causing all things to happen, just as He is capable of causing a rock to produce water or cause a donkey to speak human language. And why would the Lord do these things? The answer is that God has an Eternal Plan that He is exercising before the unseen Rulers and Authorities in the Heavenly Realms. We are a “show.” (Eph 3:10.)

Question: In this example, the chief, who is forced to establish positive conclusions regarding Daniel, does he possess “free will”? It seems clear that God does whatever He desires to whoever He desires, as shown below.

Exodus 33:19 KJV – “And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.”

Switching Gears to the effect of Grace: The greatest sense of Grace and Mercy one can receive from the Lord [is] the removal of the Sinful Nature, granted Repentance, receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit. Just as quickly as the Lord can place a person under a Curse, He can just as quickly remove it. In these ways, God controls people by grouping them into the Family of Circumcision OR into those whose Spiritual Father is Satan. The behaviors that emit from both sides are vastly different. Occasionally, a Truly saved person, such as king David, may make an egregious error, but primarily, the True Child of God lives a consistently changed and Godly life. On the other hand, those of the Spiritually uncircumcised . . . their behavior emits sin, sin, sin . . . and on a near continual basis (except when at church, Bible studies, etc.)

2 Corinthians 3:18 NKJV – “But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

Are we Transforming ourselves by our own choice? Or is this Transformation being conducted by the Spirit? No one who is making a personal transformation, do they say, “I am being transformed,” or do they say, “I am transforming my character.” Exactly. When we are in the process of Spiritual Transformation, this Transformation is done by the Lord. The Spirit does it.

Romans 2:29b NLT – “ And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people.”

The Lord may cause us to be kind to certain people, and we would never be aware of it. When the Lord causes us to do or say something, should He announce Himself for us to believe that it is actually Him who is causing us to be a specific way, or say a particular thing, etc.? God doesn’t speak to the majority of us audibly. So if the Lord doesn’t tell us aloud what He’s doing in our lives, why would we even question the events of our lives . . . assuming that life events are from our own sense of choice?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

CALVIN, OSAS, AND FREE WILL

The Calvinist's and the Calvinist's Lite guys (OSAS'ers) have one wee problem to deal with which they don't seem to be able to do, other than to either deny it's existence, or simply ignore it.

That would be FREE WILL.

Now, as for the Scripture they love to quote about no power able to tear us from Gods hand.......yes, that is true, but they do not properly understand what they are reading (in my opinion). Look at the Scripture passage:

Romans 8:35) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36) As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37) Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39) Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So many times I have stated that the Apostle wrote in two distinct styles: Thus Sayeth the Lord, and It would be better that, I would rather that..........these styles greatly change the scripture(s) they embody. The first is Thus Sayeth the Lord.......no argument, no debate, it is thus sayeth the Lord, and that is final. The second, however, is when Paul speaks his mind, his thoughts, feelings, opinions, and gives his advice/instructions as to what he believes would be best for believers/the Church. These ARE NOT commandments from God, they are Paul's words, and they are NOT meant to be carved in stone.

There are numerous examples of these in his Epistles. The first coming to mind is when he speaks about marriage:

1 Corinthians 7:6) But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment. 7) For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that. 8) I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. 9) But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
10) And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: 11) But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. 12) But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.


Important statements:

"by permission and not of commandment"
"For I would that all men"
"I command ye, yet not I, but the Lord"
"But the rest I speak, I, not the Lord"

He clearly shows the two styles here in this passage. When reading Paul's Epistles, one has to be able to distinguish one from the other to place the proper importance on what is being said.

How does this relate to the passage in Romans? It relates because what Paul is saying are HIS BELIEFS/FEELINGS/DESIRES, and they are not the Commandment of God. As well, he NEVER states that WE can or can not separate ourselves from God, and THAT is where free will comes into the picture. IF one believes we DO have free will, then one must understand that we DO have the power to separate ourselves from God. NO OTHER POWER.......NO OTHER POWER can do that! We, however, can. Either that, or free will is a lie as the Calvinsits believe.

God/Jesus WILL NEVER leave or forsake us........Jesus said that, and it is in Scripture, and it is Truth! But that does not take away our free will to leave or forsake Him!

Folks can believe as they wish. I am simply saying why I believe as I do. There are numerous Scriptures that speak of believers "falling away" and even Christ Himself said it would happen. I believe Christ. And I also understand when Paul is writing "thus sayeth the Lord," and/or "I would rather that."

(edited to say)

Another instance where folks don't understand Paul's style is when he speaks of the grafting in of the natural branches. Won't post it now...........but folks know what it says. Dealing with all Jews being saved in the end...........This was Paul's OWN desire, and that was the context he wrote it in. And, even then, he placed a "disclaimer" in his comments............."if they continue not in disbelief."

Anyway.............all I have to say on this thread.

2 Tim 3:16-17 - All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

2 Tim 3:16-17 - All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

But what do you think about the point that @p_rehbein had made? This person makes a very good point.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 256 of the timeline, chronological reading plan . . . it only gets better.

Daniel 1:17 NKJV - "As for these four young men, God gave them knowledge and skill in all literature and wisdom; and Daniel had understanding in all visions and dreams.”

Think about it, the Lord wants us to know and understand that He predisposed Daniel and the three others with knowledge and wisdom and how to apply their skills. It was the Lord who prepared Daniel to be as he intellectually was. So, the natural question might be . . . is the life of Daniel the result of a person with “free will”? Or, do the stories of his life sound and feel more like it was a life clearly planned and marked out for him?

And what about you? Does your life possess evidence that God is in complete control? Or, do you not feel God at all? Speaking for myself, before my Transformation began, I had no idea of how cut off and far away from God I actually was. The day that I realized how separated I was from God our Lord, was the Day Christ removed the Sinful Nature from my heart. After the Curse had been released, my mind could clearly understand that I was anything but a True Christian. I instantly began to see life, think, and behave in new ways. Any person who is Powerfully Indwelt will be left with the strong pull toward a new way of perceiving all things. When a person experiences the Lord in a most Powerful, Almighty Way, they cannot remain the same. When a person experiences the Powerful Peace and Love that IS the Lord, their minds are branded with such forever. When a person feels this measurable Power to the degree of extremes, that person will be unable to erase that most incredible and Holy experience. After feeling such extreme Peace and Love, any person would gravitate toward them as the most pleasing and pleasurable experience ever. And when a person experiences the Lord in this Way, they will Seek Him wanting more . . . and more . . . and more. When a person experiences the Lord in a most Powerful Way, they become a complete addict for wanting to know and understand the Lord for precisely who He is. They have a new Plan in life: to understand God’s Will in [their] life and acknowledge that the Lord has been and actively controls it. Those who recognize that their lives are under the Divine Plan of God, that they are empowered by the Laws of the Spirit of Life . . . these are the ones who can rest assured of their Salvation. For, when a person realizes that Salvation is entirely the Work of God, they are relieved of the burden of always being a failure. Why? Because Spiritual Circumcision of the Heart is the Act by Christ that sheds a person from the Mind of their Spiritual Father, the Devil.

John 8:44 NKJV - 44 “You are of your father the Devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own [resources], for he is a liar and the father of it.”

What the Lord did to Daniel is what the Lord does to all of His Holy Elect . . . He instills a New Heart and Spirit SO THAT the person receiving this Holy Circumcision (of the Heart) will begin to think entirely anew. They will become a new creation, but not physically. They will become new Spiritually. The effect of being released of the Sinful Nature is the moment a person begins to receive the Mind of Christ, for this New Mind does not possess the Mind of Satan (nor is it influenced by Satan), but the Mind of Christ. Compare the Mind of Satan (which all humans had before being Redeemed by Christ), to the Mind of Christ. Consider and compare the thoughts of the Devil to the thoughts of Jesus. Yes, this IS descriptive of the kind of Transformation that a person undergoes . . . IF they have Truly received the Circumcision of Christ.

Either way, each person is predisposed to think in particular ways - some worse than others, some better than others. People are either predisposed to the behavior of the Sinful Nature, or they have subsequently been predisposed to the conduct and thought processes of the Righteous. The way, or path that a person contemplates things, they are grouped within another group that has a “thought” policy applied to it. Each member of this group is predisposed to think evilly. Not necessarily every thought, but that life is more consistent with the life of the Devil. There are two “thought” policies applied by the Policy Maker, who is God. There are those in the Righteous group who are predisposed to thinking in a Righteous way and those who have been taken captive by the Devil to think and “do his will.”

2 Timothy 2:26 NLT - 26 "Then they will come to their senses and escape from the Devil’s trap. For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.”

Galatians 5:22-24 NLT – “But the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against these things! Those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed the passions and desires of their sinful nature to his cross and crucified them there.”

Each group thinks and acts in a completely different way from the other. So which group do you belong to (that determines your modes of thinking and behaving?) And when you’ve realized that you actually do belong to one of these two groups, then reconsider the possibility of possessing “free will.”

 

[persistent]

That's like saying the news takes my free will away by deliberately and repeatedly reporting stupid things that make me angry.

Yes, God intimidates rebellious people, like a police car intimidates someone who is driving 50mph in a school zone. It's not a big deal.

Subliminal stimuli



Description

Subliminal stimuli are any sensory stimuli below an individual's threshold for conscious perception, in contrast to supraliminal stimuli. A 2012 review of functional magnetic resonance imaging studies showed that subliminal stimuli activate specific regions of the brain despite participants' unawareness. Wikipedia

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Subliminal stimuli



Description

Subliminal stimuli are any sensory stimuli below an individual's threshold for conscious perception, in contrast to supraliminal stimuli. A 2012 review of functional magnetic resonance imaging studies showed that subliminal stimuli activate specific regions of the brain despite participants' unawareness. Wikipedia

Do you accept the hundreds of Biblical examples of where the Lord controlled the minds (and actions) of the Israelites, grafted in Gentiles, and their enemies?

 

[persistent]

Do you accept the hundreds of Biblical examples of where the Lord controlled the minds (and actions) of the Israelites, grafted in Gentiles, and their enemies?

Absolutely. I am actually new to studying the Bible but now when I look back on my life I can see a number of significant events which outcome was like a coin toss in a sense. And it is with great difficulty that I try to sort it all out. Meditation and prayer helps but there are events that cause pain and regret and are difficult to accept and get the proper perspective. I have probably read the Bible thru but in a random way. But I base a great deal of my faith on extrabiblical 'inexplicable' occurrences. I imagine the people at all times of history are susceptible to the same stimuli as we are today. A question I often pondered even before I accepted Jesus as Savior is why did mankind only recently develop, not necessarily discover, the technologies we now have. "Obviously?", some 'inexplicable' Power is the reason. Science looks for answers in this regard too.
Subliminal stimuli
Description

Subliminal stimuli are any sensory stimuli below an individual's threshold for conscious perception, in contrast to supraliminal stimuli. A 2012 review of functional magnetic resonance imaging studies showed that subliminal stimuli activate specific regions of the brain despite participants' unawareness. Wikipedia

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I hear what you're saying about submilinal influences/stimuli. When the average person sees a shark or alligator face to face, specific emotions are summoned. These reactions also occur within the animal kingdom, at least partially designed as a self-protective instrument. But that isn't what I see happening within the Bible, and particularly the clear stories throughout the Old Testament.

Jeremiah 10:23 NET - "LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them."

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 256 of the timeline, chronological reading plan is similar to Day 243, where Ezekiel 17:24 is covered. To recap, here is verse 24:

Ezekiel 17:24 ASV – “And all the trees of the field shall know that I, Jehovah, have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I, Jehovah, have spoken and have done it.”

Day 256 offers us the below passage from Daniel. It reads as follows:

Daniel 2:21 NLT – “He controls the course of world events; he removes kings and sets up other kings. He gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to the scholars.”

What I get out of the above two passages is that if not for the Lord, the condition and position of our planet would be completely different. I read that God has an Almighty Plan and that it is being executed as detailed in the Heavenly Scroll of the Lord. I read that millions of people, over the course of thousands of years, believed that it was they who chose their kings. But Daniel 2:21 tells us otherwise. It Was the Lord who caused millions of people to choose their kings. Some kings took the throne through murder, but the Lord at work still determined who would and would not become king. I also read that if not for God, those with knowledge and wisdom wouldn’t have it if it were not for God Himself.

How does “free will” fit in with the above facts?

 

[persistent]

I hear what you're saying about submilinal influences/stimuli. When the average person sees a shark or alligator face to face, specific emotions are summoned. These reactions also occur within the animal kingdom, at least partially designed as a self-protective instrument. But that isn't what I see happening within the Bible, and particularly the clear stories throughout the Old Testament.

Jeremiah 10:23 NET - "LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them."

I won't disagree with what you say about the people in the Bible. I am thinking about people like myself who grew up with no Biblical exposure to speak of. Went to Catholic grammar school and conditioning is geared toward rituals. That takes some de-programming. And pure secularists are conditioned by the boob-tube and now the boob social nut case Zuckerberg controlled media. That takes Power of Holy Spirit to penetrate. Is the average Westerner in control of their own will? Some of us sinners are more stony-hearted than others. I may be way off base in response to your viewpoint but my viewpoint may be valid too. Flip sides of the same coin maybe or have you a better analogy? First time I know I saw an actual NT at age 16 I used the pages to roll my tobacco in. The illinois Youth Commission didn't allow us cigs. Then I read the Bible some between 1971-1975 and now since about 2018. So I may be a little lax in Bible reading.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I won't disagree with what you say about the people in the Bible. I am thinking about people like myself who grew up with no Biblical exposure to speak of. Went to Catholic grammar school and conditioning is geared toward rituals. That takes some de-programming. And pure secularists are conditioned by the boob-tube and now the boob social nut case Zuckerberg controlled media. That takes Power of Holy Spirit to penetrate. Is the average Westerner in control of their own will? Some of us sinners are more stony-hearted than others. I may be way off base in response to your viewpoint but my viewpoint may be valid too. Flip sides of the same coin maybe or have you a better analogy? First time I know I saw an actual NT at age 16 I used the pages to roll my tobacco in. The illinois Youth Commission didn't allow us cigs. Then I read the Bible some between 1971-1975 and now since about 2018. So I may be a little lax in Bible reading.

Stone-hearted. When Adam and Eve sinned, God essentially handed all of humanity, and perhaps even the entire world, to Satan. People are Spiritually Fathered until Jesus provides Holy Redemption. To possess the Sinful Nature is the same thing as possessing a heart of stone. The Bible revolves around this issue, and that God's Eternal Plan required the Life and Death of Jesus to Redeem the Lord's Elect by using Him, Jesus, to remove the Curse of the Lord . . . also known as Circumcision of the Heart.

Would you agree that those who possess the Sinful Nature, those of the "Flesh" . . . that they are predisposed to think in a generally evil way? And "generally" implies selfishness and self-centeredness in its plethora of forms. And those who have been relieved of the Curse and have received the beginning of the Mind of Christ, would you agree that these people think and behave in a dramatically different way? Once separated from the Curse of the Lord, a person is released from the Devil's captivity and is finally able to begin to consistently live a Righteous and Holy Life. Note that I did not say an utterly perfect life, but a consistent Life filled with evidence of Righteousness and Holiness.

 

[persistent]

Stone-hearted. When Adam and Eve sinned, God essentially handed all of humanity, and perhaps even the entire world, to Satan. People are Spiritually Fathered until Jesus provides Holy Redemption. To possess the Sinful Nature is the same thing as possessing a heart of stone. The Bible revolves around this issue, and that God's Eternal Plan required the Life and Death of Jesus to Redeem the Lord's Elect by using Him, Jesus, to remove the Curse of the Lord . . . also known as Circumcision of the Heart.

Would you agree that those who possess the Sinful Nature, those of the "Flesh" . . . that they are predisposed to think in a generally evil way? And "generally" implies selfishness and self-centeredness in its plethora of forms. And those who have been relieved of the Curse and have received the beginning of the Mind of Christ, would you agree that these people think and behave in a dramatically different way? Once separated from the Curse of the Lord, a person is released from the Devil's captivity and is finally able to begin to consistently live a Righteous and Holy Life. Note that I did not say an utterly perfect life, but a consistent Life filled with evidence of Righteousness and Holiness.

I am not going to side step the question but will have to consider how to answer. You sort of put me on the spot with that question as I only proclaim Jesus as my Savior since 25 May 2021 and feel you are asking in earnest of a reasonable answer. The reason I say this is because I consider that most of my life is probably way off to the edges on a bell curve of people that are truly seeking to live according to the commandments of Jesus. Discernment is a gift maybe? I am not sure about gifts of the Spirit and don't know that I have any though I have read of gifts in the Bible. So I am going to delay giving an answer at this time. I will get back to you on this question God willing. Just seems tough to me.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

I am not going to side step the question but will have to consider how to answer. You sort of put me on the spot with that question as I only proclaim Jesus as my Savior since 25 May 2021 and feel you are asking in earnest of a reasonable answer. The reason I say this is because I consider that most of my life is probably way off to the edges on a bell curve of people that are truly seeking to live according to the commandments of Jesus. Discernment is a gift maybe? I am not sure about gifts of the Spirit and don't know that I have any though I have read of gifts in the Bible. So I am going to delay giving an answer at this time. I will get back to you on this question God willing. Just seems tough to me.

What an honest response. Much respect to you for this. And yes, Discernment is definitely a gift from God . . . the ability to perceive according to the Spirit. An unregenerated person (a person who has not received the Circumcision of Christ) does not and cannot possess this level of Spiritual Discernment.

I encourage you to stay on your path, to continue doing what you're doing. Also, I deeply encourage you to read the Bible in a timeline, chronological order. Learning the actual Story of God is incredibly vital and important.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Day 257 of the timeline, chronological reading plan offers us the most remarkable story of king Nebuchadnezzar, but more . . . what He and his experiences represent.

Daniel 4:13-37 NKJV - 13 “I saw in the visions of my head while on my bed, and there was a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven. 14 He cried aloud and said thus: ‘Chop down the tree and cut off its branches, Strip off its leaves and scatter its fruit. Let the beasts get out from under it, And the birds from its branches. 15 Nevertheless leave the stump and roots in the earth, Bound with a band of iron and bronze, In the tender grass of the field. Let it be wet with the dew of heaven, And let him graze with the beasts On the grass of the earth. 16 Let his heart be changed from that of a man, Let him be given the heart of a beast, And let seven times pass over him.

17 ‘This decision is by the decree of the watchers, And the sentence by the word of the holy ones, In order that the living may know That the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, Gives it to whomever He will, And sets over it the lowest of men.’ 18 “This dream I, King Nebuchadnezzar, have seen. Now you, Belteshazzar, declare its interpretation, since all the wise men of my kingdom are not able to make known to me the interpretation; but you are able, for the Spirit of the Holy God is in you.”

19 Then Daniel, whose name was Belteshazzar, was astonished for a time, and his thoughts troubled him. So the king spoke, and said, “Belteshazzar, do not let the dream or its interpretation trouble you.” Belteshazzar answered and said, “My lord, may the dream concern those who hate you, and its interpretation concern your enemies! 20 The tree that you saw, which grew and became strong, whose height reached to the heavens and which could be seen by all the earth, 21 whose leaves were lovely and its fruit abundant, in which was food for all, under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and in whose branches the birds of the heaven had their home-- 22 it is you, O king, who have grown and become strong; for your greatness has grown and reaches to the heavens, and your dominion to the end of the earth. 23 And inasmuch as the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, ‘Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave its stump and roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze in the tender grass of the field; let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let him graze with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him’; 24 this is the interpretation, O king, and this is the decree of the Most High, which has come upon my lord the king: 25 They shall drive you from men, your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make you eat grass like oxen. They shall wet you with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over you, till you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses. 26 And inasmuch as they gave the command to leave the stump and roots of the tree, your kingdom shall be assured to you, after you come to know that Heaven rules. 27 Therefore, O king, let my advice be acceptable to you; break off your sins by being righteous, and your iniquities by showing mercy to the poor. Perhaps there may be a lengthening of your prosperity.”

28 All this came upon King Nebuchadnezzar. 29 At the end of the twelve months he was walking about the royal palace of Babylon. 30 The king spoke, saying, “Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for a royal dwelling by my mighty power and for the honor of my majesty?” 31 While the word was still in the king’s mouth, a voice fell from heaven: “King Nebuchadnezzar, to you it is spoken: the kingdom has departed from you! 32 And they shall drive you from men, and your dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field. They shall make you eat grass like oxen; and seven times shall pass over you, until you know that the Most High rules in the kingdom of men, and gives it to whomever He chooses.” 33 That very hour the word was fulfilled concerning Nebuchadnezzar; he was driven from men and ate grass like oxen; his body was wet with the dew of heaven till his hair had grown like eagles’ feathers and his nails like birds’ claws.

34 And at the end of the time I, Nebuchadnezzar, lifted my eyes to heaven, and my understanding returned to me; and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever: For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom is from generation to generation. 35 All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, “What have You done?” 36 At the same time my reason returned to me, and for the glory of my kingdom, my honor and splendor returned to me. My counselors and nobles resorted to me, I was restored to my kingdom, and excellent majesty was added to me. 37 Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise and extol and honor the King of heaven, all of whose works are truth, and His ways justice. And those who walk in pride He is able to put down.”


Let his mind become that of a beast? Is not this the ultimate form of mind control for God? He can take the mind and soul of an animal and place it into king Nebuchadnezzar. Is this not a reflection of what has happened to us, as humans, with the added Sinful Nature? Does not this evil Nature represent us as animals? Consider the story of the Benjamites concubine being raped until she died. Incredibly, the only way we can fully understand how animalistic we are is by being released from the Sinful Nature and realizing the evil effect it had upon us. The difference between lifestyles is incredible. Verse 14 proves that these things were done so that the Lord could demonstrate His Almighty Power.

God is making it clear that He [will do] all of the above actions upon the King of Babylon, Nebuchadnezzar, to strip him of his authority and turn his mind into an animal until he repents. And as the story goes, at the moment of the end of the term for the king to remain under this Curse, he turned to God and was restored . . . exactly as Planned by the Lord.

In a past post, I quoted Ezekiel 11 and 36. The passage set spoke about how the Lord would put a New Heart and Spirit into His Holy Elect. Does this not sound like exactly what happened to king Nebuchadnezzar above? Yes, it certainly does, for we see how the king was handed over to beastly status, only to be restored and live according to Righteousness and Holiness.

Verse 16 is a living analogy that demonstrates the problem that humanity faces. Here is what I mean . . . Adam and Eve sinned, and the result of that sin is that all humans (and all life) must endure the Curse of the Lord, which not only guarantees physical death, but we must also endure and ultimately be Redeemed of the Sinful Nature, a second element of the Curse of the Lord. This Sinful Nature is an ugly beast in itself, is it not? Look at all the heinous things done by “so-called” religious people of the Bible. For example, the group of Benjamite men who raped a concubine until she died . . . are these not beastly acts? (Judges chapter 19+)

It is important to see here that our Powerful, Almighty God changes our hearts, converting us from evil beasts to gentle, loving, and selfless creations. It is only by the Power of God that we are changed, for no human ability is capable of making such changes . . . including the “free will” concept. “Free will” is incapable of self-Spiritual Cleansing. Spiritual Cleansing is an act reserved for the Lord Jesus and to be used according to those whom the Father has given Him.

So, think about it: God handed our hearts over to Satan, represented by Nebuchadnezzar being turned into a beast, and it will be God who releases us of this Curse, just as it will be God who converts Nebuchadnezzar back into a man who, after experiencing such utter Power of the Lord, becomes a Righteous and Holy man. As said in a previous post, no one can experience such Power of God and not be changed inwardly. And what changes? We are reprogrammed to think and “choose” to do and say Righteous and Holy things, not for self, but for the Lord.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Still on Day 257 of the timeline, chronological reading plan, Daniel chapter five gives us another remarkable concept to consider. Verse 23 reads as follows:

Daniel 5:23 NLT – “For you have proudly defied the Lord of heaven and have had these cups from his Temple brought before you. You and your nobles and your wives and concubines have been drinking wine from them while praising gods of silver, gold, bronze, iron, wood, and stone--gods that neither see nor hear nor know anything at all. But you have not honored the God who gives you the breath of life and controls your destiny!”

Clearly Stated in the Tanakh: “. . . But the God who controls your lifebreath and every move you make - Him you did not glorify!”

Whether we agree with it or not, the Bible and the Jewish Tanakh (below) translate this verse in a way that God wants us to realize that He alone accepts full responsibility for things, and people, as they are. But there is more; if we remember, verse 23 is very similar to the following passages previously covered:

Job 23:14 NLT – “So he will do to me whatever he has planned. He controls my destiny.”

Deuteronomy 32:35 NLT – “I will take revenge; I will pay them back. In due time their feet will slip. Their day of disaster will arrive, and their destiny will overtake them.”

Psalm 31:15 NET – “You determine my destiny! Rescue me from the power of my enemies and those who chase me.”

Psalm 73:17 NLT – “Then I went into your sanctuary, O God, and I finally understood the destiny of the wicked.”

Psalm 73:24 NLT – “You guide me with your counsel, leading me to a glorious destiny.”

Jeremiah 10:23 NET – “LORD, we know that people do not control their own destiny. It is not in their power to determine what will happen to them.”

Jeremiah 13:25 NET – “This is your fate, the destiny to which I have appointed you, because you have forgotten me and have trusted in false gods.”

I find it particularly difficult to deny these Scriptures above, not to mention the total of 114 passages that I have offered for consideration thus far, with about 85 to go. But back to Day 257 . . .

Is this story of King Belshazzar and his circumstances a “one-off” that applies only to himself, or is there a possibility that God Truly is in complete control over His Eternal Plan for all of Creation? Is it possible that God controls each of our destinies . . . that He controls every move we make? If He does, then “free will” cannot be a part of our psychological make-up, or God had taken King Belshazzar’s control as that “one-off.”

I did not write the above Bible passages, but I am merely sharing the exact words from various translations for consideration, and we should at least consider them in terms of the impact they might have on the “free will” concept.