Free Will - A More Exhaustive Look

[Magenta]

Humans think and believe that we are who we are based upon our own development. Totally incorrect. God is in total control and creates us to be who we are. Here is but one of many examples:

Tanakh: "God made all four of these young men intelligent and proficient in all writings and wisdom, and Daniel had understanding of visions and dreams of all kinds?"

As you say, all Glory goes to God!

We are wonderfully made. My dad was a bit of a photographer. Because of him, my brothers and sisters and I have a fairly comprehensive photographic history of our family; I have ten siblings, so yeah, that is a lot of pictures. Anyways, I got my first camera when I was about ten, just an automatic, that took 126 mm film. I remember taking the film to a corner store up the street where I bought candy on the way to/from school, and I just knew the old guy who owned that store and lived in the same building did not develop them behind his curtain. LOL. When I got the pics back the first time I was very curious to see where they had been processed.

I am a high school drop out, and also a college drop out after one year... I was totally lost, and casting about, and quite wounded I might add, with no help in sight, but there was one thing on my radar I knew for sure: I wanted to work in a photo lab. Long story short (I shall hasten to the punchline LOL) = my first photo lab job was there, where my pics as a ten year old had been printed. Turns out there were only two labs in my home town, and I heard bad things about the other one, so I did not even apply there. I had to apply at the one I wanted to work at numerous times. They kept turning me away because I "had no experience." They finally succumbed to my persistence

Over the next forty four years I worked in only two other labs. I was 38 years at my last job when covid and cancer coincided, and got me laid off. I had just turned 65 and was not planning to retire, but I will tell you quite honestly: as much as I loved what I did for a living, I do not miss going to work. I started on my 21st birthday and finished two weeks after turning 65. Wow. God's timing is impeccable. I was not a believer when I began my profession, but I did always consider my getting that job and starting on my 21st birthday as a gift from "the Spirit of the Universe."

I do believe I was perfectly set up to do what I do now. I have seen tens of millions of pictures. My job was not just printing, but color correcting and also spotting, and then when digital came in, I learned remedial things in Photoshop, which is the program I use to design my collages. Handling so many pictures is very much like what I have to do as I am searching out the elements I use, because I may literally look at a thousand images to save just a few that I think I might have use for.

Thank you for always being so appreciative of my efforts in this regard

 

[Magenta]

It sure is. I can barely see the face of Christ and His outstretched Hand.

That is an arm of the cross. The perspective is a little distorted = looking up at Him
as He looks down "from His lonely wooden tower," as Leonard Cohen sang in Suzanne

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

We are wonderfully made. My dad was a bit of a photographer. Because of him, my brothers and sisters and I have a fairly comprehensive photographic history of our family; I have ten siblings, so yeah, that is a lot of pictures. Anyways, I got my first camera when I was about ten, just an automatic, that took 126 mm film. I remember taking the film to a corner store up the street where I bought candy on the way to/from school, and I just knew the old guy who owned that store and lived in the same building did not develop them behind his curtain. LOL. When I got the pics back the first time I was very curious to see where they had been processed.

I am a high school drop out, and also a college drop out after one year... I was totally lost, and casting about, and quite wounded I might add, with no help in sight, but there was one thing on my radar I knew for sure: I wanted to work in a photo lab. Long story short (I shall hasten to the punchline LOL) = my first photo lab job was there, where my pics as a ten year old had been printed. Turns out there were only two labs in my home town, and I heard bad things about the other one, so I did not even apply there. I had to apply at the one I wanted to work at numerous times. They kept turning me away because I "had no experience." They finally succumbed to my persistence

Over the next forty four years I worked in only two other labs. I was 38 years at my last job when covid and cancer coincided, and got me laid off. I had just turned 65 and was not planning to retire, but I will tell you quite honestly: as much as I loved what I did for a living, I do not miss going to work. I started on my 21st birthday and finished two weeks after turning 65. Wow. God's timing is impeccable. I was not a believer when I began my profession, but I did always consider my getting that job and starting on my 21st birthday as a gift from "the Spirit of the Universe."

I do believe I was perfectly set up to do what I do now. I have seen tens of millions of pictures. My job was not just printing, but color correcting and also spotting, and then when digital came in, I learned remedial things in Photoshop, which is the program I use to design my collages. Handling so many pictures is very much like what I have to do as I am searching out the elements I use, because I may literally look at a thousand images to save just a few that I think I might have use for.

Thank you for always being so appreciative of my efforts in this regard

I cannot tell you enough of how much I adore this story! And yes, you are very important to me; someone that should receive all encouragement to the umpth degree. And I believe you when you say that you feel that God prepared you to do what you are doing today with these panels . . . and more. If you weren't here, there just wouldn't be as much "flavor" otherwise.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

@Magenta

Speaking of your gifts, and as they relate to this thread of free will, consider the below Scripture and how it relates to both you and the purpose of this thread:

2 Timothy 1:9 NIV - "He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time . . ."

I know that God has chosen you. No one could post what you post and not have been Known by the Right Hand of God . . . Jesus Christ. The Lord has a Holy Purpose for you, and that Purpose is executory . . . it is happening right now. You didn't choose this Purpose, but the Lord did, and you are in the process of completing it. And when the process has been completed, it transfer from executory to executed. His Purpose will have been made complete.

You are doing just as the Lord had planned all along. I know this. I KNOW this.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Unless people are afraid of the Truth, and it seems that they are (as they have bowed out of this thread), they will eventually come to know that God is in control and that we are not. Eventually, all of the passages that I will offer will become undeniable as a collective set of passages.

 

[FreeGrace2]

aw you are making it up to suit your opinion. everyone knows that the "that not of yourself" refers to faith.

Check out the genders. That won't match. It does match with "saved", not "faith".

By "everyone" you only mean other calvinists.

Paul says that in himself, that is in his flesh no good thing dwelleth

Right. And your point? The grace of God offers salvation to everyone. Titus 2:11

but you say faith dwelled in you

As a noun, "faith" is the body of information that is in the Bible. And, yes, it DOES live in me. But NOT until I heard the gospel message and believed it. THEN it dwells in me.

You seem to believe a lot of calvinistic stuff that isn't in the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

you don't know what you are saying "who you will serve" serve is not freewill.

You don't know what you are saying. One CHOOSES who they will serve!

Rom 6:16-
1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—
11 In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

The black bolded words show the potential to sin. Keep in mind Paul wrote this to believers.

The red words prove that all this is a CHOICE. "when you offer yourselves" is clearly a choice, so if you disagree, then there is no reason to continue this discussion. You are not being reasonable or rational.

The words are clear enough.

Again you twist the scripture to make it say what you want

lol. No I don't. I have verses that SAY what I believe. Unlike calvinists. What verse says Jesus died for less than everyone?

The verse that says man is unable to believe until he is regenerated? The verse that says God elects to salvation?

There are NO VERSES that teach any of these things.

"whom He foreknew He also predestined ...." but you say "who He did not foreknow He also predestined" How could He predestine an unknown person or people?

Please don't put stupid words in my mouth. You know very very well I NEVER said any of this.

God foreknows everyone. He is omniscient. Those He predestined are believers only. Which you see unaware of.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Until a person experiences being Chosen by God, they'll NEVER understand.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

It amazes me how MOST "christians" deny John 15:16.

It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

 

[Mem]

It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

Oh no, the history of hi-jacked elections goes farther back than I realized!

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

Oh no, the history of hi-jacked elections goes farther back than I realized!

Are you able and would you be willing to explain yourself a bit more, please?

Do you think I have "hi-jacked elections"? I don't know whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me.

I provided John 6:70,71 to show how calvinists are confused about election.

 

[Mem]

Are you able and would you be willing to explain yourself a bit more, please?

I agree. Your comment brought to mind the recent stolen election controversy. That is, claiming a title of elect by dishonest means, or misinformation.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

Who elects who? Have you been elected? How did it happen (if you have been?)

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Leviticus chapter 11 is the chapter where God determines, for the Jews, what will be "detestable" to them and what is acceptable. The question to ask is, is the Lord suggesting that the Jews hate the creatures mentioned in chapter 11, or is He causing them to hate these animals? Some creatures will become viewed as detestable, which others are not, but those that are not caused to be detestable to the Jews will make the Jews unclean if they touch (or eat them).

Leviticus 11:11-12, 23 NLT - 11 "They will always be detestable to you. You must never eat their meat or even touch their dead bodies." 12 "Any marine animal that does not have both fins and scales is detestable to you. "... 23 "All other winged insects that walk along the ground are detestable to you."

How is this not mind control? The Lord has predetermined or predisposed, the Jews to find these creations to be detestable. And what does it mean to find something detestable? "Stimulating disgust or detestation; offensive; shocking." So when the Lord says, "These animals shall be detestable," He means that the Jews will find themselves disgusted, offended, and shocked over the thought of eating them.

Have the Jews lost their ability to choose what they find acceptable and not acceptable? Is this an unfair practice by God? To strip the Jews of what they find to be detestable and what is not detestable? Certainly, they have not made this choice. Certainly, the Lord controls their methodology of thinking regarding these creatures.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

Two questions:

1. Why are you using verses to deny free will when they actually support the lack of free will?

2. Is there something about you that I should be aware of? I ask because there is a co-member, here, who I used to get into difficult conversations with. It wasn't until this person told me that they were 96 years old and had six months to live that I decided to back off and be more tolerant, patient, kind, and loving. So again, is there something about you that I should know?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

Who elects who? Have you been elected? How did it happen (if you have been?)

None of these questions disprove my statement above.

God elects. I have been elected. It happened when I believed in Christ.

Now, your turn. Verse that says God unconditionally elects to salvation. (that would mean that faith or believing isn't involved)
Verse that says Jesus didn't die for everyone, or only for some.
Verse that says that man is unable to believe the gospel.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

Two questions:

1. Why are you using verses to deny free will when they actually support the lack of free will?

Huh? How can I "use verses to DENY free will" that "actually support LACK OF FREE WILL? I think you need to rephrase.

2. Is there something about you that I should be aware of? I ask because there is a co-member, here, who I used to get into difficult conversations with. It wasn't until this person told me that they were 96 years old and had six months to live that I decided to back off and be more tolerant, patient, kind, and loving. So again, is there something about you that I should know?

lol. Hoping I'm at the end of my life, huh? Well, no one knows when they will leave this earth, regardless of age. So that is a red herring.

All you are asked to do is respond to my posts, which are mostly a response to yours. Since you disagree so much, please explain how the verses I use don't mean what I use them for. That is what I do for posters that I engage with.

 

[Beckie]

Daniel 4 the story of King Nebuchadnezzar paints a picture of the hand of God and world leaders. The man of God , Daniel, was not afraid to stand for truth.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

FreeGrace2 said:
It amazes me how ALL calvinists deny John 6:70,71
70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”
71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Calvinists have NO CLUE what election is even about. And they have no verses that say what they claim.

None of these questions disprove my statement above.

God elects. I have been elected. It happened when I believed in Christ.

Now, your turn. Verse that says God unconditionally elects to salvation. (that would mean that faith or believing isn't involved)
Verse that says Jesus didn't die for everyone, or only for some.
Verse that says that man is unable to believe the gospel.

Yes, God chooses who is saved.

John 15:16 NKJV - "You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you."

Did the apostle Paul have Faith when he was selected on the Damascus Road? No, in fact, he had hatred and murder in his heart for Christians. He was on his way to find and persecute them.

Jesus died for the Elect . . . those of the Vine.
Romans 8:29 NIV - "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters."

There are many verses that show that people cannot believe. After all, this is the point of the Curse of the Lord. Here is one that points to the entire Jewish Nation, less those whom God had CHOSEN."

Romans 11:7-8 NLT - "So this is the situation: Most of the people of Israel have not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened. As the Scriptures say, "God has put them into a deep sleep. To this day he has shut their eyes so they do not see, and closed their ears so they do not hear."

There is only one explanation for why you cannot understand these things and it is exactly because of what verse 8 states . . . your eyes and ears are shut. This is the Raw, Almighty Power of God being shown in you.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Hoping I'm at the end of my life, huh?

I see what is happening, here. You're struggling to understand what I clearly mean.

We are unable to have a rational conversation, so there will be no need to continue to try. I'm sorry.

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Next on this set of passages that show how God directs lives and influences thoughts and decisions is the following:

Numbers 24:22-23 NASB20 - "Nevertheless Kain will suffer devastation; How long will Asshur keep you captive?" Then he took up his discourse and said, "Oh, who can live unless God has ordained it?"

Who decides whether or not a person lives or dies? Is it us, mere humans? Or, is it the Lord? And how does the Lord determine who lives and dies if He does not determine what a person thinks? If the Lord is to keep a person alive, He MUST determine the thoughts and actions of those surrounding the person to be kept alive. And this is what we find regarding mere owls and falcons:

Isaiah 34:15-16 NIV - 15 "The owl will nest there and lay eggs, she will hatch them, and care for her young under the shadow of her wings; there also the falcons will gather, each with its mate. 16 Look in the scroll of the LORD and read: None of these will be missing, not one will lack her mate. For it is his mouth that has given the order, and his Spirit will gather them together."

How does the Lord keep mere owls and falcons alive without guiding and directing the other creatures that hunt them down as food? Simple: The orchestrates the entire life and surrounding events of these owls and falcons to ensure that they appear at just the right place and at just the right time so that none will be without their mates.

If the Lord is doing this for owls and falcons, how much more is He doing this for us? It is this Scroll that allows for prophesying to be called and come to fruition. The Scroll is pre-written and the events in this Scroll are set into action by the Spirit.