Free Will vs. Predestination: Why is this even needed to be debated?

[thecreationtutor]

You got it backwards he rejected God and hardened his heart. At one point he accepted the fact there is a God. then turned and was destroyed in the Red Sea.

God's Ultimate Plan = to deliver Israel and to show His great power - Sinners are blind and slaves to sin, God used Pharoh's own evil heart to measure out His purposes - pharoh only chooses sin - that's not free will

 

[thecreationtutor]

So why can't God show us all his greatness by hardening hearts as he sees fit? I don't see how this reference can be explained away by so many who advocate free will.

Scripture says Romans 9
21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory

God is a consuming fire - He's not the sum total of what we think He is

 

[thecreationtutor]

This thread is only needed on the basis of people who use their theology to judge harshly, to call other Christians as pharisee's or not really saved because they follow a particular point of view of Scripture. Not saying that I have not been guilty. The OP started with a harsh attack on the doctrines of grace, to no view of the downfalls of her theology - which is classic to show a lack of understanding, and emotionally charged towards one theology - I was like this as well for a bit

Ephesians 4:1-6 I have posted this many times, if they have the content on the Majors, all the rest is minors - you can work with people with a crazy belief if they have the majors.

Each man or woman is to be convinced in their own mind - Debate is fun sometimes, and it sharpens us

 

[notuptome]

Eve was beguiled but Adam ate of his free will. With the knowledge of good and evil came the responsibility to choose between sin and righteousness. Do not confuse predestination with foreknowledge. God knows ahead of time what we will do but He does not make us do it. God did not make Adam eat. God knew Adam would eat and prepared a way to redeem Adam before Adam ate.

All those who are going to believe in Christ are predestined in Christ to receive eternal life. God determined that those who believe will be saved. God did not pick and choose who will or will not believe even though He knows who they are. The determinate will of God is in complete harmony with the free will of man. According to election there are only two choices.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[thecreationtutor]

i can't edit this now

 

[jimmydiggs]

Predestination Theology - states that God did not give his children free will. God is the direct cause of all evil and suffering for he is the only one with Free will. God decides everything that ever has happened or ever will happen. Therefore God created Heaven and Hell and predetermined in the beginning who would go there and who would not. It is God's will for most of his children to go to Hell and suffer for all eternity for the purpose of setting an example of his awesome power, and so the few of his children he has chosen can see his immense power and worship him for that (but not by their own free will of course). He is the sovereign one who has complete control over evil and suffering. He is the one who hardens hearts and creates evil and suffering so that he may triumph over the evil he has created and in doing so be worshiped for that. He created most for the purpose of extreme pain, death, and suffering for all eternity, and only a few for the purpose of worshiping him; however he created all for his own glorification. He willingly limits himself for the sole sake of his own glorification.

Now just tell me right off the bat, which of these two scenarios simply makes the most sense? It should be blatantly obvious which is the most likely scenario. Predestination Theology just makes absolutely no sense. Yet for those who still don't see I will explain...

Let me ask you a quick hypothetical question: If you happen to be walking down the street one day, stumble upon a burning building with lets say, 23 people inside, and you decide to rush in and are able to successfully rescue 3 of them. Will people deem you a hero? Will people give you honor and glory and praise? Will they most likely even give you an award for your heroic work? Of course! Because you were a hero worthy of praise. It doesn't even matter if most of the people in the building perish and die, you saved some of them by doing all that you could... But then after all that praise, what if everyone finds out that it was you who started the fire in the first place? Would they deem you a hero? Would they give you honor and glory and praise? Would they even give you an award for your heroic work? Of course not! They would most likely throw your sorry butt in jail for burning down a building and killing all those other people. Who cares if you save the lives of a few from a disaster that you cause?

This is the logic behind Predestination Theology. God's sole purpose is to give himself praise. Yet how does he achieve this? By creating suffering and evil for him to snuff out, through which he somehow gains greater glory. Why do so many people believe in this? Why does this issue even have to be debated? Predestination defies basic common sense...

I'll be the first to tell you, if this truly is the nature of God, then I hate him. If Predestination Theology were true, I would henceforth refuse to worship him. It should be understandable as to why...

The Predestination God is a God who creates scores of beings for the sole purpose of being tortured and killed. By his own will he gives life to an innumerable measure of beings in a world of suffering, gives them many sufferings throughout their entire lives until they finally die, and are then sent into Hell; a torturous prison from which there is no light, no hope, no happiness, no peace, in which they are burned alive over and over again and again, are tortured, raped, devoured, ripped apart over and over piece by piece in screaming brutal agony for the rest of eternity... I don't know about you, but I would never give honor and glory and praise to a homicidal manic like that. This God is guilty of more evil then those he's punishing, actually, those he's punishing aren't guilty of anything for they haven't freely decided anything. All of the guilt lies with God, yet instead of feeling guilty he feels proud and expects us to worship him for it. Adolf Hitler looks like a saint next to this God.

Furthermore in detail of my own personal experience; I have been sexually abused by my father at a young age, forced to relive the trauma over and over for ten years through mandatory visitations with him by ruling of the United States Judicial system, have suffered countless nightmares and night terrors, suffer from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD), have been bullied and beat up countless times all through school, have witnessed three dear loved ones of mine die in front of my eyes (two of which at a young age), have been made fun of for my looks and my poverty my whole life, and finally; fell in love with a white trash ex-girlfriend who cheated on me multiple times, put me down, ruined my grades in high school as well as any good chance of me going to any real college, and then left me so she could become a free-spirited bisexual who wants multiple non-committed relationships... Do you honestly expect me to worship a God who directly caused all of these negative events in my life, because he caused all of these negative events in my life? If so, ARE YOU INSANE? You'd have to be to worship this monster. If this is the true nature of God, then I hate him...

Thankfully this is not the nature of God, because basic common sense tells us so. This Predestination doctrine contradicts itself in nearly every area. It's common sense that if God exists and is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, then he wouldn't do this. We also know that it is not contradictory for there to be an all-knowing and all-powerful God with Free Will Theology, and therefore since it can only be one of the two, Free Will Theology wins hands down.

List of Free Will Theology verses:

1 Ch 28:9 1Ch 29:5 Ps 51:12 Da 3:28 Mt 18:14 Mt23:37 1Ti 6:18 1Pe 5:2 2Co 8:11-12

[/quote]

That straw man is so handsome, I bet he get's all the ladies.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Didn't beat the edit time.

Thankfully this is not the nature of God, because basic common sense tells us so. This Predestination doctrine contradicts itself in nearly every area. It's common sense that if God exists and is truly all-knowing and all-powerful, then he wouldn't do this. We also know that it is not contradictory for there to be an all-knowing and all-powerful God with Free Will Theology, and therefore since it can only be one of the two, Free Will Theology wins hands down.

How about instead of: "LOL GUISE IT TOTALLY DOESNT MAKE SENSE YA KNOW" we actually have something substantive.

EG dislikes predestination as much as you, but at least he gets half of his opposition right. You have failed entirely.

[video=youtube;M5QGkOGZubQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5QGkOGZubQ[/video]

 

[thecreationtutor]

What do you mean when you say "you must look spiritually" God did let the sinner continue, and use the sinner for His purposes which is always His glory

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Why is there need to debate? I can think of none. There are for more important issues to discuss. Like those who think we must earn salvation. thus think it can be lost.

Discuss this topic is ok. But no need to judge others or condemn people just because they believe this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

But scriptures say (in several places, numerous times) that God "hardened" Pharoah's heart. So this isn't really true, is it?

No, God did not force pharoah to do something, But that is for another thread..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So why can't God show us all his greatness by hardening hearts as he sees fit? I don't see how this reference can be explained away by so many who advocate free will.

ok. I can't let this go.

"harden" litterally means to strengthen. When Someone hardens their heart, or has it hardened by God. their will is strengthened (which is what it means)

Alot different than saying it is forced against its will, or has no will

 

[phil36]

The title of this thread is actually a bit of a strawman... because even those who believe in Free will (whatever that means no one seems to know?)

It should be Free will Vs, Free agency or man's inability.

 

[thecreationtutor]

dang i always thought that genesis 8:22 said evil since childbirth, but it says youth - i posted the verse, changed the word because I was too lazy to find the version - but it does say youth hmmz

 

[thecreationtutor]

The title of this thread is actually a bit of a strawman... because even those who believe in Free will (whatever that means no one seems to know?)

It should be Free will Vs, Free agency or man's inability.

there was a post - the elect have free will in a sense, but the non elect are slaves to sin - unable to have 'free will'

 

[phil36]

there was a post - the elect have free will in a sense, but the non elect are slaves to sin - unable to have 'free will'

In the narrow sense pertaining to an individuals nature yes, however 'free agency' is more accurate. Don't forget we're are all slaves to whom we belong.

In We Christ we serve and are bondservants of Jesus, who set us free.

 

[thecreationtutor]

strengthened against God - for the heart is desperately wicked - makes much more sense!

 

[thecreationtutor]

1. 
   [*=left]Harden
   
   
   to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore
   
   1. 
      [*=left](Qal)
      
      1. 
         [*=left]to be strong, grow strong
         
         1. 
            [*=left]to prevail, prevail upon
            
            [*=left]to be firm, be caught fast, be secure
            
            [*=left]to press, be urgent
            
            [*=left]to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)
            
            [*=left]to be severe, be grievous
         
         [*=left]to strengthen
      
      [*=left](Piel)
      
      1. 
         [*=left]to make strong
         
         [*=left]to restore to strength, give strength
         
         [*=left]to strengthen, sustain, encourage
         
         [*=left]to make strong, make bold, encourage
         
         [*=left]to make firm
         
         [*=left]to make rigid, make hard
      
      [*=left](Hiphil)
      
      1. 
         [*=left]to make strong, strengthen
         
         [*=left]to make firm
         
         [*=left]to display strength
         
         [*=left]to make severe
         
         [*=left]to support
         
         [*=left]to repair
         
         [*=left]to prevail, prevail upon
         
         [*=left]to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
         
         [*=left]to hold, contain
      
      [*=left](Hithpael)
      
      1. 
         [*=left]to strengthen oneself
         
         [*=left]to put forth strength, use one's strength
         
         [*=left]to withstand
         
         [*=left]to hold strongly
         

 

[directline2iam]

ok. I can't let this go.

"harden" litterally means to strengthen. When Someone hardens their heart, or has it hardened by God. their will is strengthened (which is what it means)

Alot different than saying it is forced against its will, or has no will

God had predestined Pharoah to be against Moses request to let the people go. God hardened (as you say strengthened) his heart. God did it. Not Pharoah, God. If you read the story you will see Pharoah wanted to let them go, but God forced by predestination Pharoah to not let them go. Predestination being God's eternal plan all along as Pharoah had no will or choice in the matter. Neither did Jonah neither did abounch of them including Judas Escariot. They were all predestined by God before the foundations of the world. And so are you and so am I cause God's Word says so.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In the narrow sense pertaining to an individuals nature yes, however 'free agency' is more accurate. Don't forget we're are all slaves to whom we belong.

In We Christ we serve and are bondservants of Jesus, who set us free.

even this is questionable.

A slave can realize he is a slave and seek freedom. Especially if someone comes and offers them freedom.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God had predestined Pharoah to be against Moses request to let the people go. God hardened (as you say strengthened) his heart. God did it. Not Pharoah, God. If you read the story you will see Pharoah wanted to let them go, but God forced by predestination Pharoah to not let them go. Predestination being God's eternal plan all along as Pharoah had no will or choice in the matter. Neither did Jonah neither did abounch of them including Judas Escariot. They were all predestined by God before the foundations of the world. And so are you and so am I cause God's Word says so.

Sorry, It is obvious you have not read it. Pharoah hardened his OWN heart most times. God only did it a few times.

If one looks at scripture and "hardening" ones heart. It means to strengthen their will, their determination. Their desire.

Pharaoh did not desire to let them God. In order to do so, he would have to admit he is not God and their is one greater than he, For an egyptian pharoah, this goes against every being.

Notice how God started with small things. Things his own magicians could excuse away, The more pharoah said no. the easier it was. And the reason when he finally Got to the end, It was so easy for him in the hard areas.

We do this all the time, We do not want to believe something, because it goes against our belief, Even though most evidence shows we are wrong. The more we deny, the easier it is.

Or we tell a lie, And have to keep telling it, Eventually we can not even tell the lie is a lie, We believe it really happened.

It is called given us strength to do what we really want to do.

God did this by the way he did things.

HE DID NOT FORCE PHARAOH AGAINST HIS WILL, HE STRENGTHENED IT!