Galatians Discussion

[Onesimus63]

As a teenager(above the legal age to smoke), after the church service I would sit on a wall close by the church and smoke a cigarette. The looks I got from some of the stalwarts of the church made me believe I would go to hell for smoking alone, let alone all my other imperfections.

Years later, an internationally known evangelist prayed with me, they told me much about my life though they had never met me before. They confirmed I was baptised in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues, though at that time I still smoked. I learnt a lesson that day. God does not lay the demands on you that many of His children do, in order to be in a saved state, or to bless you.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It bothers me that there is such a difference between Christ and Paul. Christ is God, and we are to check Paul out, he must agree with God.

When I read the gospels it fills me with love and enthusiasm, I feel God in me directing my every step. Paul has so many "careful" "put on the breaks" sort of things I feel a frown coming on.

Paul is a revelator of the gospel he doesn’t preach anything contrary paul is a lengthy writer he makes his points over chapters rather than verse by verse. He agrees with every word of Christ he just speaks more about each thing

 

[justbyfaith]

I see, so in your view, only those who perfectly obey the law can be born again/saved?

Not even Jesus kept the letter of the law perfectly; for He brake the sabbath (John 5:18).

However, the righteousness of the law was fulfilled in Him; for He walked consistently from His conception, not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

So the law is not the issue; at least, not the letter of the law. If we do our best to obey the spirit of what is written, it is possible to walk consistently not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)). Therefore I can walk in consistent obedience for an extended period of time; even for the rest of my life (Luke 1:74-75).

Paul referred to the Corinthian church as ''The church of God''

Did the corinthians commit sin?
They were worldly/carnal, with jealousy and quarelling amongst each other. They took each other to court, instead of sorting out problems privately. They allowed a man sleeping with his Father's wife to remain in the church. Some of them got drunk during communion. Some ate all the food so others went hungry.
Did Paul not understand what John believed, was he so wrong?

Concerning the obedience of the Corinthian church, this is what testifies...2 Corinthians 2:9, 2 Corinthians 7:15.

2Co 2:9, For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

2Co 7:15, And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

These verses testify that, as a whole, the Corinthian church was obedient rather than disobedient.

I believe that the fact that there were people who attended church in Corinth who were disobedient only testifies to the fact that those who were disobedient were not the true church...they were simply people who said to Jesus, Lord, Lord; but to whom Jesus on the final day is going to say, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

[Blik]

I see, so in your view, only those who perfectly obey the law can be born again/saved?

This is what I mean be following Paul INSTEAD of following Christ. If the only scripture that you had ever read was the gospels, you would be doing your best to follow Christ in the way you live, without a care. You would be doing your best to live perfectly as Christ led you to do. Under Paul there is all this worry about the flesh and trying to be justified by works, and fuss, fuss, fuss. Many people get so caught up in all of Paul they forget Christ their savior God because they know Paul is truth. Paul is like the sour apples at a party.

 

[Blik]

I believe that the fact that there were people who attended church in Corinth who were disobedient only testifies to the fact that those who were disobedient were not the true church...they were simply people who said to Jesus, Lord, Lord; but to whom Jesus on the final day is going to say, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23).

The true church listens to what Christ tells them about the law and that is summed up in the word "repent". The true church follows Christ in perfection and law obedience best they can, and because that best is not perfect God accepts a will to be perfect.

 

[Onesimus63]

Not even Jesus kept the letter of the law perfectly; for He brake the sabbath (John 5:18).

However, the righteousness of the law was fulfilled in Him; for He walked consistently from His conception, not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

So the law is not the issue; at least, not the letter of the law. If we do our best to obey the spirit of what is written, it is possible to walk consistently not after the flesh but after the Spirit. For we are not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 8:12 (kjv, NLT)). Therefore I can walk in consistent obedience for an extended period of time; even for the rest of my life (Luke 1:74-75).



Concerning the obedience of the Corinthian church, this is what testifies...2 Corinthians 2:9, 2 Corinthians 7:15.

2Co 2:9, For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things.

2Co 7:15, And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

These verses testify that, as a whole, the Corinthian church was obedient rather than disobedient.

I believe that the fact that there were people who attended church in Corinth who were disobedient only testifies to the fact that those who were disobedient were not the true church...they were simply people who said to Jesus, Lord, Lord; but to whom Jesus on the final day is going to say, I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:21-23).

I would advise you to be careful as to what you write for:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matthew7:2

However, if a person is more concerned with winning an argument on the internet than their eternal security I doubt Jesus words would worry them

 

[Onesimus63]

This is what I mean be following Paul INSTEAD of following Christ. If the only scripture that you had ever read was the gospels, you would be doing your best to follow Christ in the way you live, without a care. You would be doing your best to live perfectly as Christ led you to do. Under Paul there is all this worry about the flesh and trying to be justified by works, and fuss, fuss, fuss. Many people get so caught up in all of Paul they forget Christ their savior God because they know Paul is truth. Paul is like the sour apples at a party.

I heard a minister say 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith. He wondered why that was so high a figure. He believed it was because so many of them never knew the true Gospel message. I do not mean you in any way when I say this, please believe that is the truth. But if people are unlucky enough to join a church where the flock try to make out they are virtually sinless people and that standard is required to be accepted by Christ, then it is no wonder so many walk away.
If a child was thrown out of the house everytime they failed to perfectly obey their parents rules, and were not allowed back in until they earnestly sought forgiveness people would rightly be outraged. However, that is how some promote the christian faith. The closer you come to Christ, the more acutely you see your imperfections in my view.

 

[gb9]

my chruch teaches this- the message of Jesus is beautiful, but the reason people give up is churches and demoninations overlay that message with other things, and people walk away from the other things.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

[
“

I heard a minister say 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith. He wondered why that was so high a figure. He believed it was because so many of them never knew the true Gospel message. I do not mean you in any way when I say this, please believe that is the truth. But if people are unlucky enough to join a church where the flock try to make out they are virtually sinless people and that standard is required to be accepted by Christ, then it is no wonder so many walk away.
If a child was thrown out of the house everytime they failed to perfectly obey their parents rules, and were not allowed back in until they earnestly sought forgiveness people would rightly be outraged. However, that is how some promote the christian faith. The closer you come to Christ, the more acutely you see your imperfections in my view.

“Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth,

some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:18-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Onesimus63]

[
“


“Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth,

some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:18-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Its good not to just quote scripture, but to explain it, for we are to heareth the word and understand it, as you quoted. Lets take two of the examples:

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature''

In the first example given, the people had no true root, their commitment was shallow, so when the time of testing came they fell away.
In the third example, the people kept getting distracted by other things from the path set. Jesus did not say they fell away, but rather they did not mature. You mature by constantly practising right from wrong. You could even not mature by spending much time arguing about christianity, instead of being a doer of the word couldn't you? You could be distracted that way. But God still loves you, for he does not cast you aside as easily as some may believe he would

 

[justbyfaith]

The true church listens to what Christ tells them about the law and that is summed up in the word "repent". The true church follows Christ in perfection and law obedience best they can, and because that best is not perfect God accepts a will to be perfect.

Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Phl 3:15, Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Col 1:27, To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Col 1:28, Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

1Pe 5:10, But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11, To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1Pe 5:12, By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would advise you to be careful as to what you write for:
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you Matthew7:2

However, if a person is more concerned with winning an argument on the internet than their eternal security I doubt Jesus words would worry them

My teaching most certainly includes the concept that as believers, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation; for those who are in Christ.

I consider that Jesus is the judge of who is in Him and who is not in Him.

 

[Onesimus63]

My teaching most certainly includes the concept that as believers, we are not under the law (Romans 6:14), are dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19), and are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6) as concerning condemnation; for those who are in Christ.

I consider that Jesus is the judge of who is in Him and who is not in Him.

If you are not under the law you are not under righteousness of obeying the law. However, from what you write it appears you believe you can only be righteous in God's sight if you perfectly obey the law/do not commit sin

 

[justbyfaith]

I heard a minister say 85% of people who make a commitment to Christ walk away from the faith. He wondered why that was so high a figure. He believed it was because so many of them never knew the true Gospel message. I do not mean you in any way when I say this, please believe that is the truth. But if people are unlucky enough to join a church where the flock try to make out they are virtually sinless people and that standard is required to be accepted by Christ, then it is no wonder so many walk away.
If a child was thrown out of the house everytime they failed to perfectly obey their parents rules, and were not allowed back in until they earnestly sought forgiveness people would rightly be outraged. However, that is how some promote the christian faith. The closer you come to Christ, the more acutely you see your imperfections in my view.

The gospel message as I heard it was indeed a message of holiness and I have not walked away from that message yet.

Of course the Bible does say that in the latter days some will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

I believe that the message of Jesus includes the concept that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (who were outwardly, impeccably righteous), you will in no wise enter in to the kingdom (Matthew 5:20).

It is promised to the believer that he can be sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv)).

I believe that it is the pursuit of holiness that engages those believers who end up persevering in the faith.

 

[Onesimus63]

Anyone can endlessly quote the bible, that does not prove a person understands what is written in it. The Mormons, jws, Muslims, sda, and a host of others will endlessly quote the bible to show their view is the correct view. The problem often is when you can only rigidly quote the letter without being able to explain it, for the bible cannot be understood that way

 

[justbyfaith]

If you are not under the law you are not under righteousness of obeying the law. However, from what you write it appears you believe you can only be righteous in God's sight if you perfectly obey the law/do not commit sin

No, I am righteous by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

However, I believe that faith will affect one's behaviour because he is regenerated and renewed on the inside (Titus 3:3-7); and this will have an effect on his behaviour.

 

[Onesimus63]

The gospel message as I heard it was indeed a message of holiness and I have not walked away from that message yet.

Of course the Bible does say that in the latter days some will not endure sound doctrine but will heap to themselves teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3).

I believe that the message of Jesus includes the concept that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees (who were outwardly, impeccably righteous), you will in no wise enter in to the kingdom (Matthew 5:20).

It is promised to the believer that he can be sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 (kjv), Hebrews 10:14 (kjv), 1 John 3:9 (kjv)).

I believe that it is the pursuit of holiness that engages those believers who end up persevering in the faith.

So, do you claim never to have a conscience at anything you may have done wrong? Do you never have to tell God you are sorry for any thought, word or deed? I mean, if you perfectly obey the law, you would have no regrets about anything would you. You would never have to feel bad about anything at all

 

[Onesimus63]

No, I am righteous by faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.

However, I believe that faith will affect one's behaviour because he is regenerated and renewed on the inside (Titus 3:3-7); and this will have an effect on his behaviour.

You are contradicting yourself here. From what you write you can only be righteous if you perfectly obey the law. The law is not based on faith Gal 3:12

 

[justbyfaith]

Anyone can endlessly quote the bible, that does not prove a person understands what is written in it. The Mormons, jws, Muslims, sda, and a host of others will endlessly quote the bible to show their view is the correct view. The problem often is when you can only rigidly quote the letter without being able to explain it, for the bible cannot be understood that way

Being able to quote the Bible also does not indicate that the person quoting it does not understand what is written in it.

I do believe that the Bible teaches that it will not return void when it is sent forth but will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent; and I think that this also applies to those instances where the Bible is merely quoted and no exposition is given concerning it.

 

[Onesimus63]

Being able to quote the Bible also does not indicate that the person quoting it does not understand what is written in it.

I do believe that the Bible teaches that it will not return void when it is sent forth but will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent; and I think that this also applies to those instances where the Bible is merely quoted and no exposition is given concerning it.

If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John1:8