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G
I know. I've been there.
Suppose, as you say, the KJV did remove a passage from the bible. What of it? You said it was a trinity verse?
What does that removed text say?
Do other translations include it?
Would it corrupt the teaching of the bible?
What about manuscripts?
Some translations (NAS) omit verse 37 in Acts 8.
Verse 37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
The NAS either puts it in parenthesis or footnotes it.
Mark 16:12-20 receives similar treatment as Acts 8:37. Along with a few other passages as well.
Would I not believe the bible because a few passages are disputed? No. The type of claims the bible makes are such that if it was not inspired by God and under His providential guidance, it would never have existed. Never.
When the questionable verses are retained in the KJV, they do not corrupt the text. They do not change, pervert, confound the text.
Read Acts 8 verses 36-38. Then read it again, but skip verse 37. There's no change in doctrine. No change in what happened in Acts 8.
Does the presence of questionable verses in the bible suggest that the bible is not what it says it is? No.
You've probably heard about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Check it out online.
Among the many scrolls found in the Qumran caves, which are in the vicinity of the Dead Sea, are two scrolls of Isaiah.
Scroll A: Written in Hebrew. Dated 100 BC. Contains all but one verse of the book of Isaiah.
Scroll B: Hebrew. Dated a bit earlier than A. Contains chapters 41-59.
The Dead Sea scrolls were discovered in 1948. Prior to 1948, our bibles included the book of Isaiah. This because other copies of Isaiah were available to translators. Those copies, however, were not as old as Scroll A and B of the Dead Sea scrolls.
The copies of the Isaiah text available to copyists and translators was no older than the second century AD. Maybe even the third century.
So the Dead Sea scrolls are discovered in 1948. Isaiah is part of the discovery. Scroll A and Scroll B are compared. One is older than the other. Well, the stories match. No contradictions. Furthermore, when Scroll A and Scroll B are compared to the copies of Isaiah that were used for the copying and translating of our bibles, there were no contradictions found.
David, a few alleged discrepencies do not affect the text. We have the text. No one has come along and found anything that contradicts the bible. Nothing. If there was, it would have been produced.
There's just so much evidence. It would take me hours to present it.
Here's a challenge. Answer this question: The tomb of Jesus was empty three days after He was crucified. After Jesus was crucified His body was put in a tomb. Three days later, that tomb is found empty. How did it get empty?
Suppose, as you say, the KJV did remove a passage from the bible. What of it? You said it was a trinity verse?
What does that removed text say?
Do other translations include it?
Would it corrupt the teaching of the bible?
What about manuscripts?
Some translations (NAS) omit verse 37 in Acts 8.
Verse 37 "And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God."
The NAS either puts it in parenthesis or footnotes it.
Mark 16:12-20 receives similar treatment as Acts 8:37. Along with a few other passages as well.
Would I not believe the bible because a few passages are disputed? No. The type of claims the bible makes are such that if it was not inspired by God and under His providential guidance, it would never have existed. Never.
When the questionable verses are retained in the KJV, they do not corrupt the text. They do not change, pervert, confound the text.
Read Acts 8 verses 36-38. Then read it again, but skip verse 37. There's no change in doctrine. No change in what happened in Acts 8.
Does the presence of questionable verses in the bible suggest that the bible is not what it says it is? No.
You've probably heard about the Dead Sea Scrolls. Check it out online.
Among the many scrolls found in the Qumran caves, which are in the vicinity of the Dead Sea, are two scrolls of Isaiah.
Scroll A: Written in Hebrew. Dated 100 BC. Contains all but one verse of the book of Isaiah.
Scroll B: Hebrew. Dated a bit earlier than A. Contains chapters 41-59.
The Dead Sea scrolls were discovered in 1948. Prior to 1948, our bibles included the book of Isaiah. This because other copies of Isaiah were available to translators. Those copies, however, were not as old as Scroll A and B of the Dead Sea scrolls.
The copies of the Isaiah text available to copyists and translators was no older than the second century AD. Maybe even the third century.
So the Dead Sea scrolls are discovered in 1948. Isaiah is part of the discovery. Scroll A and Scroll B are compared. One is older than the other. Well, the stories match. No contradictions. Furthermore, when Scroll A and Scroll B are compared to the copies of Isaiah that were used for the copying and translating of our bibles, there were no contradictions found.
David, a few alleged discrepencies do not affect the text. We have the text. No one has come along and found anything that contradicts the bible. Nothing. If there was, it would have been produced.
There's just so much evidence. It would take me hours to present it.
Here's a challenge. Answer this question: The tomb of Jesus was empty three days after He was crucified. After Jesus was crucified His body was put in a tomb. Three days later, that tomb is found empty. How did it get empty?
Followers of Islam…
How do you explain the fact that the Koran proclaims that Isaac was the sacrificial son offered by Abraham….and that the Lord’s blessing is completed through Israel…?
12.5
Genesis…Joseph’s dream…
نحن نقص عليك أحسن القصص بما أوحينا
إليك هذا القرءان وإن كنتمن قبله لمن الغفلين
إذ قال يوسف لأبيه يأبت إني رأيت أحد عشر
كوكبا والشمسوالقمر رأيتهم لي سجدين قال يبني لا تقصص رءياك على إخوتك فيكيدوا لك كيدا إنالشيطن للإنسن عدو مبين وكذلك يجتبيك ربك ويعلمك من تأويل الأحاديث ويتم نعمته عليكوعلى ءال يعقوب كما أتمها على أبويك من قبل إبرهيم وإسحق إن ربك عليمحكيم
Nahnu naqussu AAalayka ahsana alqasasi bima awhayna ilayka hatha alqur-ana wa-in kunta min qablihi lamina alghafileena iIth qala yoosufu li-abeehi ya abati innee raaytu ahada AAashara kawkaban waalshshamsa waalqamara raaytuhum lee sajideena qala ya bunayya la taqsus ru/yaka AAala ikhwatika fayakeedoo laka kaydan inna alshshaytana lil-insani AAaduwwun mubeenun wakathalika yajtabeeka rabbuka wayuAAallimuka min ta/weeli al-ahadeethi wayutimmu niAAmatahu AAalayka waAAala ali yaAAqooba kama atammaha AAala abawayka min qablu ibraheema wa-ishaqa inna rabbaka AAaleemun hakeemun
We, we relate on you, he did the narrative excellently, with what we revealed to you, this, The Collection, and truly you were from before it from the unmindful ones. When Joseph said to his father: "O! My dear father that I, I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them those who prostrate themselves to me." Say: "O! My dear son, relate not your dream to your brothers, so they devise to you an artful device, truly the devil to mankind is a clear enemy.” And likewise, your Lord, He chooses you and He teaches you by explanation, the narratives, and completes His blessing on you, and on Jacob's (Israel) people, just as He completed it on your fathers from before, Abraham and Isaac, truly your Lord who knows, wise. (12.3 – 6)
This first instance is in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material (i.e. referred to here as “the narrative”), and confirms what is already readily apparent, i.e. that the Koran (the collection) is merely reformatted Biblical material.
These ayahs recall Jacob’s (Israel) son, Joseph, and his “eleven star” dream in which his brothers devise an artful device against him.
These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.
Further, these ayahs confirm that the Lord’s blessing is completed through Israel’s people.
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21.70
Genesis…Abraham…Isaac…Israel…
قلناينار كوني بردا وسلما على إبرهيم وأرادوا به كيدا فجعلنهم الأخسرين ونجينه ولوطاإلى الأرض التي بركنا فيها للعلمين ووهبنا له إسحق ويعقوب نافلة وكلا جعلناصلحين
Qulna ya naru koonee bardan wasalaman AAala ibraheema waaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumu al-akhsareena wanajjaynahu walootan ila al-ardi allatee barakna feeha lilAAalameena wawahabna lahu ishaqa wayaAAqooba nafilatan wakullan jaAAalna saliheena
You say: "O! Fire, be you of coolness and peace always on Abraham." And they intended with him an artful device, so we made them the worst lowers. And we delivered him and Lot to the earth which we blessed in it to the jinn and mankind. And truly we granted to him, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) a voluntary gift, and each we made good and righteous ones. (21.69 – 72)
This second instance is once again in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material.
These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.
Further, these ayahs confirm that Isaac & Israel are good and righteous gifts.
----------------------------------------------------------------
37.98
Genesis…Abraham…sacrificial son Isaac…
قالوا ابنوا له بنينا فألقوه في الجحيم فأرادوابه كيدا فجعلنهم الأسفلين وقال إني ذاهب إلى ربي سيهدين رب هب لي من الصلحين فبشرنهبغلم حليم فلما بلغ معه السعي قال يبني إني أرى في المنام أني أذبحك فانظر ماذا ترىقال يأبت افعل ما تؤمر ستجدني إن شاء الله من الصبرين
Qaloo ibnoo lahu bunyanan faalqoohu fee aljaheemi faaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumu al-asfaleena waqala innee thahibun ila rabbee sayahdeeni rabbi hab lee mina alssaliheena fabashsharnahu bighulamin haleemin falamma balagha maAAahu alssaAAya qala ya bunayya innee ara fee almanami annee athbahuka faonthur matha tara qala ya abati ifAAal ma tu/maru satajidunee in shaa Allahu mina alssabireena
They said: "Truly you built his structure, so cast him in the blazing fire.” So they intended an artful device with him, so we made them the most humiliated. And said: "That I am going to my Lord, he will guide me." "Lord bestow (for) me from the good and righteous one." So we gave good tidings to him with a forbearing son. So when he reached the endeavor with him, Say: "O! My dear son, "That I, I see in the dreaming that I, I am slaughtering you, so look and consider what you see" Say: "O! My dear father, you do what you are commanded, so you will find me, if “allah” he willed from the patient." (37.97 – 102)
This third instance is again in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material.
In this instance, we have the story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son Isaac to Yahweh, only this time around the authors of the Koran attempted to raise and insert the pagan Arab god “allah” in lieu of the true creator God Yahweh.
Just as in the context of 21.70, we understand that Isaac was ranked as a “good and righteous one” – as we again are told this of his son.
These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.
Further, these ayahs confirm that Isaac was the son that Abraham offered, not Ishmael as Muslims would have us believe.
How do you explain the fact that the Koran proclaims that Isaac was the sacrificial son offered by Abraham….and that the Lord’s blessing is completed through Israel…?
12.5
Genesis…Joseph’s dream…
نحن نقص عليك أحسن القصص بما أوحينا
إليك هذا القرءان وإن كنتمن قبله لمن الغفلين
إذ قال يوسف لأبيه يأبت إني رأيت أحد عشر
كوكبا والشمسوالقمر رأيتهم لي سجدين قال يبني لا تقصص رءياك على إخوتك فيكيدوا لك كيدا إنالشيطن للإنسن عدو مبين وكذلك يجتبيك ربك ويعلمك من تأويل الأحاديث ويتم نعمته عليكوعلى ءال يعقوب كما أتمها على أبويك من قبل إبرهيم وإسحق إن ربك عليمحكيم
Nahnu naqussu AAalayka ahsana alqasasi bima awhayna ilayka hatha alqur-ana wa-in kunta min qablihi lamina alghafileena iIth qala yoosufu li-abeehi ya abati innee raaytu ahada AAashara kawkaban waalshshamsa waalqamara raaytuhum lee sajideena qala ya bunayya la taqsus ru/yaka AAala ikhwatika fayakeedoo laka kaydan inna alshshaytana lil-insani AAaduwwun mubeenun wakathalika yajtabeeka rabbuka wayuAAallimuka min ta/weeli al-ahadeethi wayutimmu niAAmatahu AAalayka waAAala ali yaAAqooba kama atammaha AAala abawayka min qablu ibraheema wa-ishaqa inna rabbaka AAaleemun hakeemun
We, we relate on you, he did the narrative excellently, with what we revealed to you, this, The Collection, and truly you were from before it from the unmindful ones. When Joseph said to his father: "O! My dear father that I, I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon, I saw them those who prostrate themselves to me." Say: "O! My dear son, relate not your dream to your brothers, so they devise to you an artful device, truly the devil to mankind is a clear enemy.” And likewise, your Lord, He chooses you and He teaches you by explanation, the narratives, and completes His blessing on you, and on Jacob's (Israel) people, just as He completed it on your fathers from before, Abraham and Isaac, truly your Lord who knows, wise. (12.3 – 6)
This first instance is in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material (i.e. referred to here as “the narrative”), and confirms what is already readily apparent, i.e. that the Koran (the collection) is merely reformatted Biblical material.
These ayahs recall Jacob’s (Israel) son, Joseph, and his “eleven star” dream in which his brothers devise an artful device against him.
These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.
Further, these ayahs confirm that the Lord’s blessing is completed through Israel’s people.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
21.70
Genesis…Abraham…Isaac…Israel…
قلناينار كوني بردا وسلما على إبرهيم وأرادوا به كيدا فجعلنهم الأخسرين ونجينه ولوطاإلى الأرض التي بركنا فيها للعلمين ووهبنا له إسحق ويعقوب نافلة وكلا جعلناصلحين
Qulna ya naru koonee bardan wasalaman AAala ibraheema waaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumu al-akhsareena wanajjaynahu walootan ila al-ardi allatee barakna feeha lilAAalameena wawahabna lahu ishaqa wayaAAqooba nafilatan wakullan jaAAalna saliheena
You say: "O! Fire, be you of coolness and peace always on Abraham." And they intended with him an artful device, so we made them the worst lowers. And we delivered him and Lot to the earth which we blessed in it to the jinn and mankind. And truly we granted to him, Isaac and Jacob (Israel) a voluntary gift, and each we made good and righteous ones. (21.69 – 72)
This second instance is once again in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material.
These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.
Further, these ayahs confirm that Isaac & Israel are good and righteous gifts.
----------------------------------------------------------------
37.98
Genesis…Abraham…sacrificial son Isaac…
قالوا ابنوا له بنينا فألقوه في الجحيم فأرادوابه كيدا فجعلنهم الأسفلين وقال إني ذاهب إلى ربي سيهدين رب هب لي من الصلحين فبشرنهبغلم حليم فلما بلغ معه السعي قال يبني إني أرى في المنام أني أذبحك فانظر ماذا ترىقال يأبت افعل ما تؤمر ستجدني إن شاء الله من الصبرين
Qaloo ibnoo lahu bunyanan faalqoohu fee aljaheemi faaradoo bihi kaydan fajaAAalnahumu al-asfaleena waqala innee thahibun ila rabbee sayahdeeni rabbi hab lee mina alssaliheena fabashsharnahu bighulamin haleemin falamma balagha maAAahu alssaAAya qala ya bunayya innee ara fee almanami annee athbahuka faonthur matha tara qala ya abati ifAAal ma tu/maru satajidunee in shaa Allahu mina alssabireena
They said: "Truly you built his structure, so cast him in the blazing fire.” So they intended an artful device with him, so we made them the most humiliated. And said: "That I am going to my Lord, he will guide me." "Lord bestow (for) me from the good and righteous one." So we gave good tidings to him with a forbearing son. So when he reached the endeavor with him, Say: "O! My dear son, "That I, I see in the dreaming that I, I am slaughtering you, so look and consider what you see" Say: "O! My dear father, you do what you are commanded, so you will find me, if “allah” he willed from the patient." (37.97 – 102)
This third instance is again in the heart of paraphrased Biblical Genesis material.
In this instance, we have the story of Abraham as he is about to sacrifice his son Isaac to Yahweh, only this time around the authors of the Koran attempted to raise and insert the pagan Arab god “allah” in lieu of the true creator God Yahweh.
Just as in the context of 21.70, we understand that Isaac was ranked as a “good and righteous one” – as we again are told this of his son.
These ayahs pertain to the lineage of Isaac/Israel.
Further, these ayahs confirm that Isaac was the son that Abraham offered, not Ishmael as Muslims would have us believe.
Tell me, if a man have two sons, and one of them is dead. Can it be said to him "His only son"? Yes. At the time when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaacs, Ishmael was exiled, dead to Abraham. Abrahams Only Son would indeed be ONLY Isaac. Scriptures are True, men are corrupted.
It would have been better for you to keep this kind of thinking to yourself (doubting the Word of God) then to teach others your thinking. If one believes your false teaching, or causes them to doubt the Word of God as well, their blood will be on your hands. The blind leading the blind both fall into the ditch, but woe to the one who led them there.
^i^ responding to OP
It would have been better for you to keep this kind of thinking to yourself (doubting the Word of God) then to teach others your thinking. If one believes your false teaching, or causes them to doubt the Word of God as well, their blood will be on your hands. The blind leading the blind both fall into the ditch, but woe to the one who led them there.
^i^ responding to OP
This is not a reason to suppose that Gen 22 was originally about Ishmael rather than Isaac though. We're not talking broad categories, we're talking about a particular instance. You're making a fallacy of division. You would have to demonstrate that in this instance, the bible has been edited to replace Ishmael with Isaac. I don't think it can be done.
D
Sorry I work 2-10pm and barely have time to make a reply.
But as for your challenge, it was said he went up to god?
Or I can follow the psalms 91 route, where people have claimed Jesus was never crucified and that "God will feather" jesus and protect him so he is not harmed. There is still so much to learn, For Me.
The story that muslims came up with could not have came out of anyones "ass" . I want to know why they believe in Jesus, Why do they believe he is also the True Messiah, but WHY do they not believe like us as to he is gods son.
They claim Jesus said god is ONE and alone, worship him Alone.
Does that make believe them? No. But that does make me ask, why am i worshipping Jesus when jesus himself said to worship god alone. There is much more to learn my friend.
D
Ishamel is not to be disrespected because he wasn't Isaac, God promised ishmael to be a father
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."
As of right now, Yes i follow the bible and agree Isaac was put up, but if I further conclude later on that many of the verses were edited, then I must try and figure out which verses were.
To be honest, the reason I am so interested in in doing more research and figuring out what makes sense and what doesnt, is because i was introduced to the quran. And as much as i was raised hating muslims by father, It really opened my eyes up in life when I actually met a muslim.
If i was 100% had my spirit with god of the bible, he would turn me away. But he didnt, god wants me to do research of the bible and figure out the truth.
I have done much research on islam as well and we are trully no different, have the same teachings, except about our beliefs with Jesus.
Same as goes with Judaism.
"And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."
As of right now, Yes i follow the bible and agree Isaac was put up, but if I further conclude later on that many of the verses were edited, then I must try and figure out which verses were.
To be honest, the reason I am so interested in in doing more research and figuring out what makes sense and what doesnt, is because i was introduced to the quran. And as much as i was raised hating muslims by father, It really opened my eyes up in life when I actually met a muslim.
If i was 100% had my spirit with god of the bible, he would turn me away. But he didnt, god wants me to do research of the bible and figure out the truth.
I have done much research on islam as well and we are trully no different, have the same teachings, except about our beliefs with Jesus.
Same as goes with Judaism.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And the child grew, and was weaned: and Abraham made a great feast the same day that Isaac was weaned.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba(Genesis 21:8-14).
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of(Genesis 22:1-2).
[SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called(Hebrews 11:17-18).
Ishmael was already sent away with his mother before God spoke to Abraham concerning sacrificing his son,which Isaac was the only son he had at that time with him to sacrifice.
Also in Isaac comes the promise of the savior to come,along with the bloodline of Christ,so Isaac is Abraham's only son according to the promise that Abraham will be a father of many nations,and salvation.
You can look at it as Isaac was his only son,because Ishmael was sent away,and Isaac was the only son with him,and also in Isaac comes the promise,not Ismael.
When the Bible says that Isaac is his only son,I believe it refers to his son of promise,not counting the son of the bondwoman,but Isaac was the only son that was with him,for Ismael was sent away with his mother before God spoke to Abraham concerning his son Isaac.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And Sarah saw the son of Hagar the Egyptian, which she had born unto Abraham, mocking.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba(Genesis 21:8-14).
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of(Genesis 22:1-2).
[SUP]17 [/SUP]By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called(Hebrews 11:17-18).
Ishmael was already sent away with his mother before God spoke to Abraham concerning sacrificing his son,which Isaac was the only son he had at that time with him to sacrifice.
Also in Isaac comes the promise of the savior to come,along with the bloodline of Christ,so Isaac is Abraham's only son according to the promise that Abraham will be a father of many nations,and salvation.
You can look at it as Isaac was his only son,because Ishmael was sent away,and Isaac was the only son with him,and also in Isaac comes the promise,not Ismael.
When the Bible says that Isaac is his only son,I believe it refers to his son of promise,not counting the son of the bondwoman,but Isaac was the only son that was with him,for Ismael was sent away with his mother before God spoke to Abraham concerning his son Isaac.
David,
In Gen 22 verses 2,3,6,7, and 9; Isaac is specifically mentioned by name.
That really is enough to put an end to this discussion; because we are specifically told who the sacrifice was to be.
Besides which, this discussion sidetracks the central point of the chapter: Gen 22:8
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
KJV
God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering
God will provide [by] himself a lamb for a burnt offering The Ram in the thicket
God will provide [of] himself a lamb for a burnt offering Jesus on the cross
God NEVER wanted or expected human sacrifice from believers. God wanted to teach Spiritual truth about both provision and redemption.
In Gen 22 verses 2,3,6,7, and 9; Isaac is specifically mentioned by name.
That really is enough to put an end to this discussion; because we are specifically told who the sacrifice was to be.
Besides which, this discussion sidetracks the central point of the chapter: Gen 22:8
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
KJV
God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering
God will provide [by] himself a lamb for a burnt offering The Ram in the thicket
God will provide [of] himself a lamb for a burnt offering Jesus on the cross
God NEVER wanted or expected human sacrifice from believers. God wanted to teach Spiritual truth about both provision and redemption.
please excuse me while i do you the service of being blunt.
"parts that make sense"
"make sense"
make sense to who? to you?
then you're not "following the old testament" -- as though even that could justify you -- you're following yourself. you've made yourself your own god.
why are you here, really? you're not going to follow anything anyone here says to you, unless you already agree with it yourself, right? you may as well stay in an empty room sacrificing and burning incense to yourself, talking to no one else, if you don't have respect for anything that contradicts your own mind.
"parts that make sense"
"make sense"
make sense to who? to you?
then you're not "following the old testament" -- as though even that could justify you -- you're following yourself. you've made yourself your own god.
why are you here, really? you're not going to follow anything anyone here says to you, unless you already agree with it yourself, right? you may as well stay in an empty room sacrificing and burning incense to yourself, talking to no one else, if you don't have respect for anything that contradicts your own mind.
Tell me, if a man have two sons, and one of them is dead. Can it be said to him "His only son"? Yes. At the time when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaacs, Ishmael was exiled, dead to Abraham. Abrahams Only Son would indeed be ONLY Isaac. Scriptures are True, men are corrupted.
It would have been better for you to keep this kind of thinking to yourself (doubting the Word of God) then to teach others your thinking. If one believes your false teaching, or causes them to doubt the Word of God as well, their blood will be on your hands. The blind leading the blind both fall into the ditch, but woe to the one who led them there.
^i^ responding to OP
Therein lies the problem. Who are you to try to figure out the Word of God? Who am i to do the same? The Word of God KJV has not been edited for over 400 years. For 400 years it is called the Word of God, only during the last days generation is it even thought of, that the Word of God needs to be edited, corrected, and the such. Even though the KJV has been saving souls for over 400 years. But leave it to the last days generation to say it is in need of editing, and therefore now there are hundreds of different versions of the Bible, just pick your flavor that you like best, then call that version the Word of God. Woe to this generation, which have taken it upon themselves to EDIT the Word of God, to question it, to doubt it. You can't even have a Bible study in this generation without an argument occurring because of different versions of the Bible. satan knows what he is doing, to get people away from the Word of God KJV, create all manner of watered downed versions of the Bible, to add confusion to the Body of Christ. For 400 years there was no doubts whatsoever what was considered the Word of God. But today, lol every version is the Word of God. NOBODY has the same mind or think the same things, as the Bible instructs us to do. We are so divided, that the Body has no power at all.
i have read and studied the qu'ran. It teaches many things that the Bible teaches as well, however it also teaches to hate anyone who does not believe in Allah, So you can KILL, Rape, torture, or whatever else to all those who are infidels (non-believers in Allah). It also teaches that in a time of chaos, that their messiah would appear (NOT Jesus). Therefore the radical Muslims try to cause as much chaos in the world that they can, in order to prepare the way for their messiah to show up. Their (the radicals) thinking is that if the world is in peace their messiah would never show, but if the world is in chaos, then their messiah will appear, therefore they (radical Muslims) try to cause chaos in the whole world to facilitate the arrival of their messiah. And since it is legal and just to destroy the infidel according to the qu'ran that is what they do to cause said chaos.
That is what YOU WANT. God wants His children to merely believe His Word and live by them. God wants people to seek the Holy Spirit for Truth, NOT from outside sources apart from the Holy Spirit. True God wants everyone to figure out the Truth, but HE never wants that Truth to come by ones own self, nor from ones own research. God wants people to go to Him in prayer to seek understanding and Truth, and then and only then will the Spirit of Truth open the Word of God to that person. But as long as a person seeks the TRUTH some other way, they will NOT find it, but will indeed open doors for satan to step in, and reveal all manner of truths that will be false, Truths that are 80% Truth mixed with 20% lies, NOT TRUTH at all. If a person wants to Truly seek the Truth, then pray to God for that Truth, pray every night, even if it takes 10 years, He will give it to you in a divine way, NOT via your own intellect.
Yes the ONLY way to be SAVED. i ran across a guy one time that said he was Chris-lam. i asked him what that was, that i have never heard of that before, he said he was BOTH Christian and Muslim. i laughed and said that was not possible, it is impossible to be both. To be a Christian you MUST believe Jesus is the Son of God.
Joh_20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Act_8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
1Jn_4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1Jn_5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jn_5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Muslims DO NOT believe Jesus is the Son of God at all, the qu'ran teaches that Jesus is a prophet, and that is it. i told him "Here is the Truth, if you believe Jesus is the Son of God, you are a Christian, if you believe He is NOT the Son of God, then are NOT a Christian. You can't be both Christian and Muslim, you can't believe both that Jesus is the Son of God and NOT the Son of God. NO True Muslim believes Jesus is the Son of God" He has not spoken to me since.
Judaism, like the Muslims, DO NOT believe Jesus is the Son of God (Messiah). Judaism and Muslim alike believe Jesus Christ was a prophet, nothing more. Judaism and Muslims alike are currently waiting for the Messiah to show up. And ironic enough, they both will proclaim the anti-christ as the messiah they have been waiting for, and the Peace agreement between them will be signed via his hand. After 3 1/2 years both will see the error of their thinking he is the Messiah.
^i^ responding to post # 47
So you are basically a Muslim, picking apart the Old Testament to use for your purposes, and rejecting both Christ and the New Testament?
Signed:
The Canadian gal!
Ironic, you ask her to talk with respect, all the while you falsely accuse her of calling you something, because you failed to understand it was a question she asked, not a calling you anything. So then who disrespected who? You claim to be a man of Christ, will you then apologize to her for your disrespectful remark? We shall see.
^i^ responding to post # 48
It is interesting because Abraham did marry Ishmael's mother, hence at age 12, 13 he was still the "only son."
And, according to the story, Sarah had told Abraham to get rid of the mother and his son.
So crucifying Ishmael was certainly a way of getting rid of him.
If it had been Isaac, we would need to believe Abraham ha gone nuts to even think of killing him.
I tend to think the muslims have raised a good point here.
Muslims really became as Jewish as possible, in spite they adore Jesus, as they say.
Both Jews and Muslims recognize that sexual immorality is socially destructive practices, and that has made these two heads and shoulders above the Gay/Feminist western people who hate the bible or else are intentionally deaf to it.
Nevertheless, both need be saved by recognizing that Christ told us he was Truth.
He meant Truth, as an ideal, in biggest sense of the world.
Truth is the savior which sets men free.
Moslems do not say that about Allah, nor do they claim that Allah has a son called Truth.
Hence Muslims do not worship the same god as Christians recognize.
The muslims err in failing to read John 14:6, which tells us all that Christ said he was Truth, an ideal.
That personification of Truth meant that the son-of-God defined his own father as The Reality which gives birth to Truth.
With that one point, muslims ought to have seen that Reality does have a son, one born as it unfolds endlessly.
Truth is made in the image of Reality and the two concepts are identical to men.
Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, i.e.; Reality), said, Let us, (i.e.; Reality and Truth), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution, ending in the finished Adam of Jesus),... let us, (i.e.; Reality and Truth), make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind,... through using Truth), make man, (mentally) IN OUR IMAGE, (Truth and Reality):
let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
E
Issac was child of promise.
There would have been no need to sacrifice Ishmael. He was not child of promise. Thus Abraham would have not been tested. Abraham had faith God would raise him from the dead BECAUSE he was child of the promise God knew he would not break that promise.
His faith was in God. God keeps his word.
There would have been no need to sacrifice Ishmael. He was not child of promise. Thus Abraham would have not been tested. Abraham had faith God would raise him from the dead BECAUSE he was child of the promise God knew he would not break that promise.
His faith was in God. God keeps his word.
You are looking at the NT the wrong way.
The writings are testimonies.
These are witnesses to what happened in 32 AD.
They are like any other witness in a court room
They say what they believe was the case.
They testify for us to hear their knowledge about what had happened.
As a jury which listens to them, we do not expect that they will repeat exactly what the other witnesses said.
It is our job as the Jury to make sense of their testimony.
We must decide what was happened in 32 AD, based upon these four witnesses.
We ought be very suspicious if all said exactly the same things.
That would imply collusion and planning.
It would mean there was one witness, not four.
When we read what Mohammed told us, we discover a set of verses which contradict other verses.
We are told these were Satanic Verse, things Mohammed heard which came not from Allah at all, but from the devil.
Now that raises a lot of doubts in general.
Mohammed claims he hears from Allah directly.
But this evidence is that he also heard from Satan, too.
What Mohammed heard must be assumed came mostly from God in all cases.
It could be from the devils, too.