Gimmicks, Programs, Steps, Techniques, and Formulas

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J

JesusIsAll

Guest
#21
Gimmicks, Programs, Steps, Techniques, and Formulas

Sometimes these may have limited success but eventually God strips us of our own prowess causing us to solely look to Him.

Share here what "Program" you were once plugged into until God had other ideas.
Or just share your thoughts on the topic.
A mistake of mine was being plugged into eschatology that had its origins in Hal Lindsey and persists to this day. While his work was monumental and opened the door, to masses, the relevance of eschatology in modern times, as well as some exegesis I still see as having validity, such as Israel, it did seem to lead to an epidemic of plugging news items into the Bible. (Came to later find out this went on since ancient times, people trying to force their times into scripture.)

There are so many best seller books that concoct theories, plugging anything and everything into scripture, to where scripture is butchered, a whole community of people each claiming they're right in their revolutionary, new exegesis, when it's obvious they can't each be right. I learned to shut it all out as noise if there's one Bible verse that contradicts the flavor-of-the-month exegesis, or somebody has, for instance, created a Psalm 83 war not in Psalm 83, learning the lesson that people who blab on and on from their own minds, a little scripture, but a lot of blabbering, are actually trying to force scripture into their theories, when scripture should speak for itself and be harmonious, throughout the Bible. You see the same true of cults, whose leaders write books filled with their own philosophies and doctrines they only use scripture to tangentially try to justify their dubious claims, that is, bad exegesis which only deceives. And what these so-called best seller book "scholars" are actually doing is trying to talk people into their theories to sell books. Their "teaching" is an infomercial for books and DVDs: they are actually on book tours, merchandising God, and people are taking their claims as doctrine these days!

So, I had to learn to be skeptical of most of what is popular in eschatology, not take for granted some big name in Christian popular culture really knows what they're talking about I may have trusted when young, learning the best exegesis comes from scholars who don't make a lot of noise and Bible teachers who derive their teachings from sure scripture harmonies and total context. Though it may be more boring, to not name the Antichrist or set a rapture date, at least it's truth. Most of what is popular eschatology out there is bunk, if actual scripture support is the measure. Just a few weeks ago, I looked into Rosh Hashanah, getting a bit irritated over seeing all these rapture date setters involving the "Feast of Trumpets." Well, the feast doesn't even really exist in the Bible as claimed! Appalling that most eschatology you hear these days isn't really in the Bible at all, as presented by these people selling books and websites. Some of these people, here's the only scripture harmony I can find,

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
 
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
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#22
He was very nervous...sweating profusely. Just all over the place. Fumbling to find a verse.
Skylove, you have that effect on men. ;)

I attended a small congregation for about a year. The pastor was a good man but he talked about the devil all the time. One day I was using a hammer and smashed a finger, and thought, that was the devil. Then came to realize it wasn't, I simply samshed my finger. I ended up leaving that congregation because there was too much talk about the enemy and not enough about Jesus, though the pastor truly did love Him.
 
Dec 1, 2014
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#23
Modern-day AA has eliminated virtually every reference to Jesus from the original Big Book. First editions use the name of Jesus 267 times. Today, in the fifth edition, there is only one -- in Bill's testimony.
That ticks me off!!!! :mad:
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,650
113
#25
A mistake of mine was being plugged into eschatology that had its origins in Hal Lindsey and persists to this day. While his work was monumental and opened the door, to masses, the relevance of eschatology in modern times, as well as some exegesis I still see as having validity, such as Israel, it did seem to lead to an epidemic of plugging news items into the Bible. (Came to later find out this went on since ancient times, people trying to force their times into scripture.)

There are so many best seller books that concoct theories, plugging anything and everything into scripture, to where scripture is butchered, a whole community of people each claiming they're right in their revolutionary, new exegesis, when it's obvious they can't each be right. I learned to shut it all out as noise if there's one Bible verse that contradicts the flavor-of-the-month exegesis, or somebody has, for instance, created a Psalm 83 war not in Psalm 83, learning the lesson that people who blab on and on from their own minds, a little scripture, but a lot of blabbering, are actually trying to force scripture into their theories, when scripture should speak for itself and be harmonious, throughout the Bible. You see the same true of cults, whose leaders write books filled with their own philosophies and doctrines they only use scripture to tangentially try to justify their dubious claims, that is, bad exegesis which only deceives. And what these so-called best seller book "scholars" are actually doing is trying to talk people into their theories to sell books. Their "teaching" is an infomercial for books and DVDs: they are actually on book tours, merchandising God, and people are taking their claims as doctrine these days!

So, I had to learn to be skeptical of most of what is popular in eschatology, not take for granted some big name in Christian popular culture really knows what they're talking about I may have trusted when young, learning the best exegesis comes from scholars who don't make a lot of noise and Bible teachers who derive their teachings from sure scripture harmonies and total context. Though it may be more boring, to not name the Antichrist or set a rapture date, at least it's truth. Most of what is popular eschatology out there is bunk, if actual scripture support is the measure. Just a few weeks ago, I looked into Rosh Hashanah, getting a bit irritated over seeing all these rapture date setters involving the "Feast of Trumpets." Well, the feast doesn't even really exist in the Bible as claimed! Appalling that most eschatology you hear these days isn't really in the Bible at all, as presented by these people selling books and websites. Some of these people, here's the only scripture harmony I can find,

2 Timothy 4:2-4 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Yes, I think the common denominator here is sensationalism for $$$.. I have seen the same type of hucksters on the other side of the eschatological aisle :)
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#26
Gimmicks, Programs, Steps, Techniques, and Formulas

Sometimes these may have limited success but eventually God strips us of our own prowess causing us to solely look to Him.

Share here what "Program" you were once plugged into until God had other ideas.
Or just share your thoughts on the topic.
Ah man! That brings back many memories. I don't know if you come from the background to remember a big word in the late 70's early 80's, but a church I joined right after the fact was a prime mover in what caused "discipleship" (aka "Shepherding") to become an ugly word. The pastor who left right before I joined took about 30-40 adults and their family with him to "serve" a higher up. That's what he called it, anyway. The ones left behind called it "the Jimmy Jones experience" or "Don't drink the Kool-Aid. It was horrible. I didn't live through it, but I ended up marrying a guy who almost fell for it.

His bubble was burst at a potluck dinner in that church. He was sitting next to the old pastor, still thinking they were friends, when another member brought the pastor a nice plate of salad. He graciously received it, but when the woman who served him left, he went off on what was wrong with everyone. After all, he had just done another sermon on serving "a man of God," so why didn't everyone bring him a plate of salad.

When hubby gave him the obvious answer to that question, he got blasted for not understanding "discipleship." The cord was severed at that moment.

Unfortunately those 30-40 adults, along with their kids, (all those that left with them were young, so only about 10 kids got sucked into that vacuum too), did go with him, roughly 1500 miles from home, packing everything they had, after selling their homes to end up living together in homes down there, because the cost of real estate and living was so much higher. Sometime in the next year, most returned with such confusion, anger, heartbreak and a feeling they missed God entirely, so did they ever really know God feeling to them. He destroyed them. He destroyed them, their finances, their families, (many divorces from that small group), and their trust in God.

Meanwhile, the church left behind was very much into other kinds of programs -- how to dress according to your color palate, how to lose weight, (upline pastor's wife was selling Cambridge, a diet drink that was marketed like Amway markets. And not saying we never fell for these things. We're actually the only East Coast distributor put out of business before we barely started from a recall. Think God was in that? lol), and the proper way to pray to God, brought to us by taking the Lord's Prayer as a systematic thing. Every impulse of the early 1980's church visited that church of ours.

Little did they realize it, but they made a big mistake. Ern Baxter was one of the top guys (we called them "The Big Five") of our nondenom. He really did have a fire for God, but since his background was shaky, much of what he taught was too. Good news though. He was old, (even then, lol) so, when he preached he also had a syllabus that people could grab off the "tracts table." Hubby is a big reader, and loves the Word, so he took one. Then he went to the Philadelphia library's main branch and spent the day in the reference section, reading some of those books. One that caught him was Francis Schaeffer. That was the first thing he read that changed his direction to God. They all had something in common -- reformed theology.

We've always shared what we learn from God. What he was learning affected me too. Within a few years, we were going to church to worship with the brothers, but we couldn't stay for the sermon. (The pastor, a good friend of ours, was entirely against preparing for a sermon. He didn't know any better. He quit his electrical engineering job when folks asked him to take over for the Jimmy-Jones pastor.) The sermons didn't teach God. They taught middle-class, conservative Americanism.

A newer member came to us, as we tried to quietly slip out again one Sunday. She told us it was rude to keep doing that. We agreed. And that was the last time we left that church.

That church is online of course now. God left, replaced by the American dream philosophy. (Make lots of money, and raise your kids to understand they're supposed to do better.) It worked. Now the next generation believes it's their job to make sure their kids are even richer.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#27
I attended a small church once.
And I mean 'ONCE' lol

It was highly disappointing

The pastor was not wise in scripture at all.
He used a slide show on the wall to teach us...because he did'nt know what he was doing.
He was very nervous...sweating profusely.
Just all over the place. Fumbling to find a verse.
He was the most 'unprepared fool' for a pastor I had ever seen.
Was like he didn't care...

Then during testimony....a man stood up and said to the congregation....

"Well I wanna tell all y'all people right now...listen good!
Ya got ta STAND for somethin'...or you shalt FALL for anything!"

He was applauded :(

I'm thinking...
'Good heavens man...sit down! That quote is NOT Jesus! It is an Aaron Tippon song from the 1990's....and your applauded like a wise man!"

It was the craziest church I ever attended

I never went back! lol
LOL You are young! (I keep thinking the 1990's was two years ago. :D) You got to stand for something has been around my whole life. I was actually hearing Bob Dylan singing it in my head, although. Oops. Got it wrong. His was "Gotta Serve Somebody." That was my 1990's. LOL
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#28
Me, too. As though the organization, or the local group, is sufficient for recovery.
I know many on the A community, (not just AA, but NA, A-non, etc.) who think it is. It has become their All.
 
V

Viligant_Warrior

Guest
#29
I know many on the A community, (not just AA, but NA, A-non, etc.) who think it is. It has become their All.
Any organization or group that tells new members, "Just make your Higher Power a doorknob" isn't sharing the truth, but it can still be found in Bill W. and Dr. Bob's "Big Book," which will point you to the Bible, where the whole truth abides.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#30
ooo weee, how far can we go?
As far as it needs to go...for sure....I had a fool one time take me aside and tell me I needed to bring my message down to the level of the kids (church camp) and there were about 500 kids of all ages and of course about 150 adults....I ripped a message for about 50 minutes on true discipleship from beginning to end...half way through a couple of girls were cutting up and laughing etc...I stopped preaching, called them out for it, told them they needed to shut their mouth and pay attention as it was being disrespectful to me, to God, to the people around them and their distraction could possible lead to someone not making a spiritual decision for God...you could have heard a pin drop.....I finished the message and they had an invitation...about 9 kids came forward for salvation, two or three rededicated and one surrendered to preach....I play no games with the word as it is 100% serious, is about life and death and everything spoken has eternal consequences.....NO GAMES with me my friend!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,650
113
#31
Ah man! That brings back many memories. I don't know if you come from the background to remember a big word in the late 70's early 80's, but a church I joined right after the fact was a prime mover in what caused "discipleship" (aka "Shepherding") to become an ugly word. The pastor who left right before I joined took about 30-40 adults and their family with him to "serve" a higher up. That's what he called it, anyway. The ones left behind called it "the Jimmy Jones experience" or "Don't drink the Kool-Aid. It was horrible. I didn't live through it, but I ended up marrying a guy who almost fell for it.His bubble was burst at a potluck dinner in that church. He was sitting next to the old pastor, still thinking they were friends, when another member brought the pastor a nice plate of salad. He graciously received it, but when the woman who served him left, he went off on what was wrong with everyone. After all, he had just done another sermon on serving "a man of God," so why didn't everyone bring him a plate of salad.When hubby gave him the obvious answer to that question, he got blasted for not understanding "discipleship." The cord was severed at that moment.Unfortunately those 30-40 adults, along with their kids, (all those that left with them were young, so only about 10 kids got sucked into that vacuum too), did go with him, roughly 1500 miles from home, packing everything they had, after selling their homes to end up living together in homes down there, because the cost of real estate and living was so much higher. Sometime in the next year, most returned with such confusion, anger, heartbreak and a feeling they missed God entirely, so did they ever really know God feeling to them. He destroyed them. He destroyed them, their finances, their families, (many divorces from that small group), and their trust in God.Meanwhile, the church left behind was very much into other kinds of programs -- how to dress according to your color palate, how to lose weight, (upline pastor's wife was selling Cambridge, a diet drink that was marketed like Amway markets. And not saying we never fell for these things. We're actually the only East Coast distributor put out of business before we barely started from a recall. Think God was in that? lol), and the proper way to pray to God, brought to us by taking the Lord's Prayer as a systematic thing. Every impulse of the early 1980's church visited that church of ours.Little did they realize it, but they made a big mistake. Ern Baxter was one of the top guys (we called them "The Big Five") of our nondenom. He really did have a fire for God, but since his background was shaky, much of what he taught was too. Good news though. He was old, (even then, lol) so, when he preached he also had a syllabus that people could grab off the "tracts table." Hubby is a big reader, and loves the Word, so he took one. Then he went to the Philadelphia library's main branch and spent the day in the reference section, reading some of those books. One that caught him was Francis Schaeffer. That was the first thing he read that changed his direction to God. They all had something in common -- reformed theology.We've always shared what we learn from God. What he was learning affected me too. Within a few years, we were going to church to worship with the brothers, but we couldn't stay for the sermon. (The pastor, a good friend of ours, was entirely against preparing for a sermon. He didn't know any better. He quit his electrical engineering job when folks asked him to take over for the Jimmy-Jones pastor.) The sermons didn't teach God. They taught middle-class, conservative Americanism.A newer member came to us, as we tried to quietly slip out again one Sunday. She told us it was rude to keep doing that. We agreed. And that was the last time we left that church.That church is online of course now. God left, replaced by the American dream philosophy. (Make lots of money, and raise your kids to understand they're supposed to do better.) It worked. Now the next generation believes it's their job to make sure their kids are even richer.
Oh, the Shepherding movement. The church I happened to first 'go forward' in (1974) was heavily involved with the Shepherding movement...Derek Prince, Don Basham, Bob Mumford etc., but as a newborn something smelt afoul in the camp so I didn't stick around.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,650
113
#32
As far as it needs to go...for sure....I had a fool one time take me aside and tell me I needed to bring my message down to the level of the kids (church camp) and there were about 500 kids of all ages and of course about 150 adults....I ripped a message for about 50 minutes on true discipleship from beginning to end...half way through a couple of girls were cutting up and laughing etc...I stopped preaching, called them out for it, told them they needed to shut their mouth and pay attention as it was being disrespectful to me, to God, to the people around them and their distraction could possible lead to someone not making a spiritual decision for God...you could have heard a pin drop.....I finished the message and they had an invitation...about 9 kids came forward for salvation, two or three rededicated and one surrendered to preach....I play no games with the word as it is 100% serious, is about life and death and everything spoken has eternal consequences.....NO GAMES with me my friend!
I like it. Old School, take no prisoners, and no moddly coddly.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#33
I like it. Old School, take no prisoners, and no moddly coddly.
Amen to that......that is why I cannot stand wishy, washy prosperity deceivers and or fun and games........just rip the word and let it fall where it falls..as a matter of fact the Word will do one of two and only two things....it will draw you near and or push you away.....I had a friend say...If I can win a kid to the Lord by buying him a hotdog then I will buy him the whole pack.....My response was faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God....not some stupid hotdog, pack of hotdogs or even a whole case of hotdogs.....needless to say he is a liberal now....!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,650
113
#34
Amen to that......that is why I cannot stand wishy, washy prosperity deceivers and or fun and games........just rip the word and let it fall where it falls..as a matter of fact the Word will do one of two and only two things....it will draw you near and or push you away.....I had a friend say...If I can win a kid to the Lord by buying him a hotdog then I will buy him the whole pack.....My response was faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God....not some stupid hotdog, pack of hotdogs or even a whole case of hotdogs.....needless to say he is a liberal now....!
Sometimes we forget where the power to draw one to Christ lies...

Romans 1:16 (KJV) For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

But hotdogs? Hmmm, well they do sound yummy :eek:
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#35
Oh, the Shepherding movement. The church I happened to first 'go forward' in (1974) was heavily involved with the Shepherding movement...Derek Prince, Don Basham, Bob Mumford etc., but as a newborn something smelt afoul in the camp so I didn't stick around.
Wow! Yeah, that's three out of five of the Big Five (albeit more than just five. Don Basham! The guy I keep forgetting his name, because I never met him or saw him preach. lol) In Wiki's article, (and wow! Pat Robertson bashed them and yet Scott Ross was part of it. Weird), it mentions John Poole. John Poole wasn't The Big Five, he was under their authority here in Philly. He's hubby's old pastor and friend. Something ended his pastoring days, (I'm not going into the gossipy side of what, but it was the right decision), and in stepped Don't-Drink-The-Kool-Aid pastor, directly because he hustled himself right into the position to take care of all John's needs. (John didn't know he was a scammer. No one did back then.)

It took that church a few scant years before Kool-Aid pastor took those people away. Want to know where they went? Kool-Aid convinced Mumford that he would cater to all his needs AND provide his own income through the tithes of the people who followed him. 1500 miles away. They moved from South Jersey, (a church planting out of Poole's Philly church), to Fort Lauderdale. (I really didn't know this was a countrywide thing, so I wasn't sure how many people knew of the Big Five, although I've seen someone else talking about Derek Prince, so thought maybe people might know them.)

It took Mumford about a year to figure out what was going on enough to make Kool-Aid leave. (Kool-Aid took stragglers with him to MA. Never quite figured out what happened there.) He came up to our church when many of the damaged people came home and gave us a sermon about course-correcting a sailboat. He already knew whose marriage had crashed because of his teachings. (They were hubby's friends. Hubby was asked to go until the salad comment, but the salad was the last straw. He wasn't going. He backslid big time over all that. Matter of fact, he returned sober a mere 10 days before I ever met him.) Derek was already gone.

That Wiki article is ticking me off. Bob knew but did't apologize for TEN more years? A bit late to say the least. We walked out of that church in the late 80's.

I told two friends left God after 20-30 years. One of them went with Kool-Aid guy to MA. The other one married one of the damaged women returning. He didn't go because his father had the backbone to tell Kool-Aid guy roughly the same thing Molly Weasley told Bellatrix Lestrange, minus the curse word. For him, it simply became too hard to keep trying to figure out his own doctrine, so he went with the RCC since they solved that problem for him. THAT's the damage done by Shepherding.

(BTW, I'm not naming Kool-Aid pastor because I don't believe he deserves anymore of his 15 minutes of fame, not to protect the guilty. I'm absolutely sure he Egoogles.)

I was not part of what happened, but I lived through the damaged done. (Old wound reopened.)
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,709
3,650
113
#36
Wow! Yeah, that's three out of five of the Big Five (albeit more than just five. Don Basham! The guy I keep forgetting his name, because I never met him or saw him preach. lol) In Wiki's article, (and wow! Pat Robertson bashed them and yet Scott Ross was part of it. Weird), it mentions John Poole. John Poole wasn't The Big Five, he was under their authority here in Philly. He's hubby's old pastor and friend. Something ended his pastoring days, (I'm not going into the gossipy side of what, but it was the right decision), and in stepped Don't-Drink-The-Kool-Aid pastor, directly because he hustled himself right into the position to take care of all John's needs. (John didn't know he was a scammer. No one did back then.)

It took that church a few scant years before Kool-Aid pastor took those people away. Want to know where they went? Kool-Aid convinced Mumford that he would cater to all his needs AND provide his own income through the tithes of the people who followed him. 1500 miles away. They moved from South Jersey, (a church planting out of Poole's Philly church), to Fort Lauderdale. (I really didn't know this was a countrywide thing, so I wasn't sure how many people knew of the Big Five, although I've seen someone else talking about Derek Prince, so thought maybe people might know them.)

It took Mumford about a year to figure out what was going on enough to make Kool-Aid leave. (Kool-Aid took stragglers with him to MA. Never quite figured out what happened there.) He came up to our church when many of the damaged people came home and gave us a sermon about course-correcting a sailboat. He already knew whose marriage had crashed because of his teachings. (They were hubby's friends. Hubby was asked to go until the salad comment, but the salad was the last straw. He wasn't going. He backslid big time over all that. Matter of fact, he returned sober a mere 10 days before I ever met him.) Derek was already gone.

That Wiki article is ticking me off. Bob knew but did't apologize for TEN more years? A bit late to say the least. We walked out of that church in the late 80's.

I told two friends left God after 20-30 years. One of them went with Kool-Aid guy to MA. The other one married one of the damaged women returning. He didn't go because his father had the backbone to tell Kool-Aid guy roughly the same thing Molly Weasley told Bellatrix Lestrange, minus the curse word. For him, it simply became too hard to keep trying to figure out his own doctrine, so he went with the RCC since they solved that problem for him. THAT's the damage done by Shepherding.

(BTW, I'm not naming Kool-Aid pastor because I don't believe he deserves anymore of his 15 minutes of fame, not to protect the guilty. I'm absolutely sure he Egoogles.)

I was not part of what happened, but I lived through the damaged done. (Old wound reopened.)
I wasn't aware Charles Simpson was part of that 5, only had seen his name floating around on cassettes. Ironically that Church I mentioned was diagonally opposite Florida on a map but could have been sitting on the panhandle. The next day I had gone forward I had a court appearance and was sentence for one month.

Immediately after leaving jail I came down to L.A. for 5 months and then went back up to Wa.to that same church. The first thing the pastor there greeted me with (after I gave the Church a quick public testimony) was "Are you going to submit now?" Despite that, I had plenty of previous cult experience in my BC days to know that familiar smell.
 
A

atwhatcost

Guest
#37
I wasn't aware Charles Simpson was part of that 5, only had seen his name floating around on cassettes. Ironically that Church I mentioned was diagonally opposite Florida on a map but could have been sitting on the panhandle. The next day I had gone forward I had a court appearance and was sentence for one month.

Immediately after leaving jail I came down to L.A. for 5 months and then went back up to Wa.to that same church. The first thing the pastor there greeted me with (after I gave the Church a quick public testimony) was "Are you going to submit now?" Despite that, I had plenty of previous cult experience in my BC days to know that familiar smell.
The pastor who replaced Kool-Aid, (also a good friend at the time), liked me the moment I walked into that church. I decorated my pocketbook with pins I liked. The biggest one is still something I believe greatly -- "Question Authority." (No! Really? You couldn't tell that about me? lol) I didn't get why he loved that pin until I heard the stories and met the people who returned.
 

HQ

Senior Member
Jan 26, 2014
196
6
18
#38
I once got snookered into a Rick Warren bible study class. I walked out with bruises.