God and Time

[Eli1]

This may be a bit off-topic but i think it's also related because it's related to :

“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Are not five sparrows sold for two pennies? Yet not one of them is forgotten by God. Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows.

Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life ? Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?


“Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.


“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

and scientifically this is supported by the law of information that is in an enclosed system (the universe) which is never lost.
Which means that everything in this universe is recorded and nothing is lost and God is aware of it.
If we had the technology to beat the speed of light, we could go at a point in space about 80 light-years away and point a telescope back to earth and watch WW2 in action.
You could watch your grandfather still alive. You could even watch Jesus Himself 2000 years ago.
So, nothing is lost and the sense of Time, if we're able to do this becomes sort of meaningless because all your relatives and loved ones are over a Time-Hill and they're never gone, just away from touch .. until the second coming.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This may be a bit off-topic but i think it's also related because it's related to :



and scientifically this is supported by the law of information that is in an enclosed system (the universe) which is never lost.
Which means that everything in this universe is recorded and nothing is lost and God is aware of it.
If we had the technology to beat the speed of light, we could go at a point in space about 80 light-years away and point a telescope back to earth and watch WW2 in action.
You could watch your grandfather still alive. You could even watch Jesus Himself 2000 years ago.
So, nothing is lost and the sense of Time, if we're able to do this becomes sort of meaningless because all your relatives and loved ones are over a Time-Hill and they're never gone, just away from touch .. until the second coming.

Exactly “time “ requires the elements of the perpetual present , because it’s always moving along we’re temporarily trapped in its jaws fading along with time we need to be saved from it

 

[Eli1]

Exactly “time “ requires the elements of the perpetual present , because it’s always moving along we’re temporarily trapped in its jaws fading along with time we need to be saved from it

Agreed.
I also interpret those teachings of Jesus as ways of "letting go" of trying to control everything and focus on God primarily, because while you are alive you will never be able to touch everything or figure out everything, so your joy should come primarily internally not externally. This is also supported by Paul's letters that say that "i am content with everything, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

So, based on these passages and our observations of reality, it could mean that Time is an illusion, and other passages along with observation of reality say that Time itself, or our perception of it, was created in the beginning. This is what the majority of scholars, scientists and theologians say too.

These are some of the mysteries that will be revealed as it's said on 1 John 3:2 or in Luke 12:2.

 

[PaulThomson]

What’s your thought that leads you to this ? Is God growing older even though he has no beginning or end ? How would the concept of aging work if there’s no beginning or end ? If days and years didn’t exist from the motion of the universe before he created them how was he aging in time ?

He is called "the Ancient of days". and "His hair is white as snow" indicating long age and wisdom from experience. These descriptors make no sense if God is not experiencing time.

 

[PaulThomson]

The fallacy in His argument is that only God is self-existing...I am that I am. Nothing exists apart from God...in Him all things have their being. This is obviously true of time as well. It too has a beginning with God. But I do find the topic fascinating.
If we keep going, we will end up considering whether God created ex nihilo or ex Deo.

The fallacy in your argument is that you are assuming that time is created at the same time as a way to measure time is created. That is like assuming electromagnetic components of light were created by man when He developed a way to detect them.

 

[Cameron143]

The fallacy in your argument is that you are assuming that time is created at the same time as a way to measure time is created. That is like assuming electromagnetic components of light were created by man when He developed a way to detect them.

One good fallacy deserves another.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

He is called "the Ancient of days". and "His hair is white as snow" indicating long age and wisdom from experience. These descriptors make no sense if God is not experiencing time.

Yes he’s called many things in scripture son of man everlasting Father prince of peace the Lord of all King of heaven and earth the bread of life the beginning and end first and last

still tbough the first thing we discover in the Bible about him is that he created everything that exists and he then existed before it all did. That he has no beginning because it bagan from him who is eternal God and creator .

It’s on the first page

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The fallacy in your argument is that you are assuming that time is created at the same time as a way to measure time is created. That is like assuming electromagnetic components of light were created by man when He developed a way to detect them.

God didn’t create a device to measure time he created a device to make time a relevant concept

 

[Pilgrimshope]

He is called "the Ancient of days". and "His hair is white as snow" indicating long age and wisdom from experience. These descriptors make no sense if God is not experiencing time.

He became a man remember ? I’ve never said he didn’t experience time Jesus became One of us to experience creation enter into death and save it

 

[PaulThomson]

Yes he’s called many things in scripture son of man everlasting Father prince of peace the Lord of all King of heaven and earth the bread of life the beginning and end first and last

still tbough the first thing we discover in the Bible about him is that he created everything that exists and he then existed before it all did. That he has no beginning because it bagan from him who is eternal God and creator .

It’s on the first page

According to the "temporal God" deniers, there was no time before creation for there to be such a thing as "before creation".

 

[PaulThomson]

God didn’t create a device to measure time he created a device to make time a relevant concept

He could have done both. The sun moon nd stars were given partly to function as a clock.

 

[Chaps]

Misunderstanding of my post:
1.) I never mentioned the word "time" in the post you are quoting (post #214).
2.) I was referring to an equivocation regarding the word "love", which I tried to make clear by setting your own words to bold.

Nonetheless...
1.) If we want to talk about "time" being a divine attribute: we would first have to examine time by positing a very careful definition, and then giving some thought to what causes it.
2.) After this kind of careful examination, I think we'd find that "time" simply doesn't meet the qualifications of a divine attribute.

God Bless.
.
.

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood, but you quoted my post on ”time being part of His essence” and replied

To avoid accidental equivocation, we need to be really careful not to mix eternal divine attributes with anything created and contingent, or accidentally slipping from one category to the other.

It seemed you were contesting my quote by suggesting “time being part of His essence” was wrongly attributing time to God’s attributes. I just think it’s evident that God’s eternal nature is one of His attributes in Scripture (of which I think either His enduring through time our standing outside of time would apply as part of that attribute in my estimation.)

God refers to Himself as “the Alpha and Omega” the “beginning and end” and the ”eternal” and “everlasting” God “who was and is and is to come.” I read all these claims as attributes as an “attribute” is defined as, “a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.” So I dont see how God’s enduring life that expands throughout the ages would not be Seen as a quality or characteristic of who He is. I dont know why such adjectives would be used of God if they were not important characteristics. In fact, God contrasts His characteristics with those of the idols Israel worshiped when He says,

Jeremiah 10:9–10 (ESV): Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish,
and gold from Uphaz.
They are the work of the craftsman and of the hands of the goldsmith;
their clothing is violet and purple;
they are all the work of skilled men.
10 But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God and the everlasting King.
At his wrath the earth quakes,
and the nations cannot endure his indignation.

Thus, God contrasts the dead pieces of silver and gold with His life and everlasting reign. Again, these seem like characteristics.

 

[Chaps]

Which of these statements are untrue?
Love is a consuming fire (Heb. 12:29)
Love is true. (John 3:33)
Love is spirit (John 4:24)
Love is faithful (2 Cor. 1:18)
Love is one (Gal 3:20)
Love is light (1 John 1:5)

They are all true. That is why I wouldn’t try to simplify who God is by lifting one statement above the others. That was the point I was trying to make.

 

[maxwel]

Ok, perhaps I misunderstood, but you quoted my post on ”time being part of His essence” and replied


It seemed you were contesting my quote by suggesting “time being part of His essence” was wrongly attributing time to God’s attributes. I just think it’s evident that God’s eternal nature is one of His attributes in Scripture (of which I think either His enduring through time our standing outside of time would apply as part of that attribute in my estimation.)

God refers to Himself as “the Alpha and Omega” the “beginning and end” and the ”eternal” and “everlasting” God “who was and is and is to come.” I read all these claims as attributes as an “attribute” is defined as, “a quality or feature regarded as a characteristic or inherent part of someone or something.” So I dont see how God’s enduring life that expands throughout the ages would not be Seen as a quality or characteristic of who He is. I dont know why such adjectives would be used of God if they were not important characteristics. In fact, God contrasts His characteristics with those of the idols Israel worshiped when He says,

Jeremiah 10:9–10 (ESV): Beaten silver is brought from Tarshish,
and gold from Uphaz.
They are the work of the craftsman and of the hands of the goldsmith;
their clothing is violet and purple;
they are all the work of skilled men.
10 But the Lord is the true God;
he is the living God and the everlasting King.
At his wrath the earth quakes,
and the nations cannot endure his indignation.

Thus, God contrasts the dead pieces of silver and gold with His life and everlasting reign. Again, these seem like characteristics.

Your Argument:
1.) You originally said TIME was an ATTRIBUTE of God.
2.) You then referred to scripture which verified God is eternal, thus making "eternality" a divine attribute.

The Problem:
1. "Time" and "Eternal" are different words, that mean very different things.
2. Although "eternality" is an attribute of God, that does not mean "time" is an attribute of God.


God Bless.

.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

According to the "temporal God" deniers, there was no time before creation for there to be such a thing as "before creation".

only someone who thinks time is necassary for existsnce would see it like that . I think “ time “ is o my a result of the creation and eternity is what was before and will be after time which is just a segment of eternity .

I think you’ve began at a different place than I have is probably the distance but really it’s just an interesting thought no one can really ever prove anything we’re saying right or wrong just interesting thought I reckoned

 

[Magenta]

The argument has to do with the creation of time, and that having its beginning in creation. Before creation, what existed?

He seems to think the universe pre-existed creation.

 

[Chaps]

Your Argument:
1.) You originally said TIME was an ATTRIBUTE of God.
2.) You then referred to scripture which verified God is eternal, thus making "eternality" a divine attribute.

The Problem:
1. "Time" and "Eternal" are different words, that mean very different things.
2. Although "eternality" is an attribute of God, that does not mean "time" is an attribute of God.


God Bless.

.

You are right. It does not mean time is an attribute of God. It also doesn’t mean it isn’t. As I see it, if God is eternal, Scripture is posing one of the two claims:

1. God endures through time eternally.
2. God stands outside time

It seems you land on #2. So while time may not be part of God’s nature, timelessness may also not be part of God’s nature. So, you are arguing that I am wrongly attributing time to be part of God’s nature while I am arguing that you are wrongly attributing timelessness to be part of God’s nature. To be frank, the Bible doesn’t really say either, but it certainly implies one or the other. I just think the first claim fits more in line with the teaching of the Bible as it implies that God was operating with a past, present and future in Genesis 1 (a ”time” before the universe was created and a “time after it was created). I dont think it makes sense to suggest that before time, God was beginning new actions. Because doing something new implies a succession of events, i.e. time.

 

[Cameron143]

All things were created by God for God. Is time a thing?

 

[maxwel]

You are right. It does not mean time is an attribute of God. It also doesn’t mean it isn’t. As I see it, if God is eternal, Scripture is posing one of the two claims:

1. God endures through time eternally.
2. God stands outside time

It seems you land on #2. So while time may not be part of God’s nature, timelessness may also not be part of God’s nature. So, you are arguing that I am wrongly attributing time to be part of God’s nature while I am arguing that you are wrongly attributing timelessness to be part of God’s nature. To be frank, the Bible doesn’t really say either, but it certainly implies one or the other. I just think the first claim fits more in line with the teaching of the Bible as it implies that God was operating with a past, present and future in Genesis 1 (a ”time” before the universe was created and a “time after it was created). I dont think it makes sense to suggest that before time, God was beginning new actions. Because doing something new implies a succession of events, i.e. time.

If you start with a definition of time, then we can examine that, and see if it qualifies as a divine attribute.

Prior to a proper definition, you're sort of making claims about nothing... some nebulous thing that isn't identified.


.

 

[PaulThomson]

He seems to think the universe pre-existed creation.

It is quite possible that other universes existed before our universe was created. But I am not suggesting that our universe existed before it was created. That's what a timeless God would entail. If God is timeless, this creation could never "come into existence" from God's perspective. Its existence would be in a timeless NOW with every other reality.