God born as man - any reference in old testament?

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EleventhHour

Guest
#21
They put gall in my food
and gave me vinegar for my thirst. (Psalm 69:21)
 
Jun 6, 2020
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#22
pardon me, but that's not the question that was posed.


The question I responded to was posed by iamsoandso,

You don't believe Jesus is the almighty God do you?
I don’t know what User believes or how he’ll respond. I told iamsoandso how I would respond to his question if it had been asked of me.

'great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh'
The link I’m providing is to a note in the NET on the passage, a good discussion on manuscript evidence.

https://netbible.org/bible/1+Timothy+3

“By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory.“ (NASB)

The phrase ”He who” is referring to the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth, not God.
 
Jun 6, 2020
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#23
OT Jehovah is Jesus pre-incarnation:

Zech 12:8-10 Identifies Jehovah with Jesus Christ
8) The LORD (Jehovah) defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; & he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; & the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them

9) it shall come to pass in that day, "I" will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem

10) I will pour upon the house of David, & upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace & of supplications & they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, & they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, & shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first born

In verse 8 the LORD, (Jehovah), is speaking. In verses 9 & 10 the pronoun, "I", refers to the same LORD, or Jehovah "I" will seek to destroy & "I" will pout out upon the house of David

"""Here's the real key"""
Vs 10 they shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they pierced & they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, & shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first born

Clearly, Jehovah is stating He vis the One that shall be pierced & mourned for.

Jesus is the pre-incarnation OT Jehovah:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(NOTE: Jesus is the Word Rev 19:13)

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(NOTE: The Word/Jesus that was with & was God created all things)

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(NOTE: The Word/Jesus that was with & was God created the world)

14 (A) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
(NOTE: The pre-existing Word/Jesus became flesh)

Jn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
(NOTE: See Ex 3:14)
Thanks. I understand the trinitarian explanation of the verses you’ve quoted. The OP was asking about how Jews understand the OT.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,940
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#24
The Lord asked us, in the OT to celebrate all the steps in salvation with feasting, but God didn't ask us to celebrate his birth as a human. It was purely the idea of man to do that.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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#25
Although she had (too) hastily presumed it be Him, my (jewish) teacher explained Eve's understanding (of God being born man) noting Eve's statement of Cain's birth, "Kaniti ish YHWH" and the conspicuous added textual assumption 'with [the help of]' rather than, if any at all were needed, a more appropriate '[namely].' It is certainly not out of the question that the proper translation should have been, "I have acquired [the] man, YHWH."
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,391
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#26
The Lord asked us, in the OT to celebrate all the steps in salvation with feasting, but God didn't ask us to celebrate his birth as a human. It was purely the idea of man to do that.
Actually the heavenly host were the first to celebrate His birth...not man.

Luke 2:8-14 KJV
[8] And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. [9] And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. [10] And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. [11] For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord. [12] And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. [13] And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, [14] Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

But neither did He forbid it's celebration by man.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,249
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#27
Read all of Psalm 22! Here are some excerpts from this prophetic psalm.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest." Psalm 22:1-2

"Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment." Psalm 22:16-18

Here are more prophecies of Jesus from Isa 53.

"53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa 53:1-12
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
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#28
Read all of Psalm 22! Here are some excerpts from this prophetic psalm.

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
2 My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest." Psalm 22:1-2

"Dogs surround me,
a pack of villains encircles me;
they pierce my hands and my feet.
17 All my bones are on display;
people stare and gloat over me.
18 They divide my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment." Psalm 22:16-18

Here are more prophecies of Jesus from Isa 53.

"53 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
4 Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
11 After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors." Isa 53:1-12
That's why they skip Isaiah 53 in sinagogues as they read the Bible books all year round this particular chapter was commanded by the rabbis to be skipped. They take away from the Word of God! They refuse to see that the Messiah would also suffer (as if that means that God is some loser) and still wait for a kingdom of this world as if an earthen kingdom is not going to perish with all things even if it came. Makes me so sad that the people are being lied to and they hide their Yeshua Messiah from them.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#29
That's why they skip Isaiah 53 in sinagogues as they read the Bible books all year round this particular chapter was commanded by the rabbis to be skipped. They take away from the Word of God! They refuse to see that the Messiah would also suffer (as if that means that God is some loser) and still wait for a kingdom of this world as if an earthen kingdom is not going to perish with all things even if it came. Makes me so sad that the people are being lied to and they hide their Yeshua Messiah from them.
The Jews are busy turning to Yeshua at a rapid rate... our King is on his way
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,528
113
#30
The Jews are busy turning to Yeshua at a rapid rate... our King is on his way
Amen. I think just in the last year Messianic Jews increased 300%, but definitely this is the numbers for "as of recently" I read it somewhere.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#31
Amen. I think just in the last year Messianic Jews increased 300%, but definitely this is the numbers for "as of recently" I read it somewhere.
The thing I find interesting is how many Christians are turning to the original scriptures for guidance, and also the willingness of the Jews to teach the Christians in Hebrew. They are brought up with so much knowledge and sometimes we are only scratching the surface.

Our Pastor is a Rabbi but he is not a Jew. God equipped him in seven years with the knowledge of Hebrew and the way he is using this talent to teach us is a blessing for me and my family. I have learned so much more from him in the last 5 or 6 years than a lifetime in mainstream churches with "highly educated" ministers.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,943
10,179
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#32
I told iamsoandso how I would respond to his question if it had been asked of me.
¡sí claro!

the usefulness of the NET is in its footnotes, not its translation.
here are the notes for John 20:28; you may be interested in ignoring them :)


sn Should Thomas’ exclamation be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted (“My Lord and my God has truly risen from the dead”), as predicate nominatives (“You are my Lord and my God”), or as vocatives (“My Lord and my God!”)? Probably the most likely is something between the second and third alternatives. It seems that the second is slightly more likely here because the context appears confessional. Thomas’ statement, while it may have been an exclamation, does in fact confess the faith which he had previously lacked, and Jesus responds to Thomas’ statement in the following verse as if it were a confession. With the proclamation by Thomas here, it is difficult to see how any more profound analysis of Jesus’ person could be given. It echoes 1:1 and 1:14 together: The Word was God, and the Word became flesh (Jesus of Nazareth). The Fourth Gospel opened with many other titles for Jesus: the Lamb of God (1:29, 36); the Son of God (1:34, 49); Rabbi (1:38); Messiah (1:41); the King of Israel (1:49); the Son of Man (1:51). Now the climax is reached with the proclamation by Thomas, “My Lord and my God,” and the reader has come full circle from 1:1, where the author had introduced him to who Jesus was, to 20:28, where the last of the disciples has come to the full realization of who Jesus was. What Jesus had predicted in John 8:28 had come to pass: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he” (Grk “I am”). By being lifted up in crucifixion (which led in turn to his death, resurrection, and exaltation with the Father) Jesus has revealed his true identity as both Lord (κύριος [kurios], used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός [theos], used by the LXX to translate Elohim).
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,249
2,408
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#33
¡sí claro!

the usefulness of the NET is in its footnotes, not its translation.
here are the notes for John 20:28; you may be interested in ignoring them :)


sn Should Thomas’ exclamation be understood as two subjects with the rest of the sentence omitted (“My Lord and my God has truly risen from the dead”), as predicate nominatives (“You are my Lord and my God”), or as vocatives (“My Lord and my God!”)? Probably the most likely is something between the second and third alternatives. It seems that the second is slightly more likely here because the context appears confessional. Thomas’ statement, while it may have been an exclamation, does in fact confess the faith which he had previously lacked, and Jesus responds to Thomas’ statement in the following verse as if it were a confession. With the proclamation by Thomas here, it is difficult to see how any more profound analysis of Jesus’ person could be given. It echoes 1:1 and 1:14 together: The Word was God, and the Word became flesh (Jesus of Nazareth). The Fourth Gospel opened with many other titles for Jesus: the Lamb of God (1:29, 36); the Son of God (1:34, 49); Rabbi (1:38); Messiah (1:41); the King of Israel (1:49); the Son of Man (1:51). Now the climax is reached with the proclamation by Thomas, “My Lord and my God,” and the reader has come full circle from 1:1, where the author had introduced him to who Jesus was, to 20:28, where the last of the disciples has come to the full realization of who Jesus was. What Jesus had predicted in John 8:28 had come to pass: “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am he” (Grk “I am”). By being lifted up in crucifixion (which led in turn to his death, resurrection, and exaltation with the Father) Jesus has revealed his true identity as both Lord (κύριος [kurios], used by the LXX to translate Yahweh) and God (θεός [theos], used by the LXX to translate Elohim).

This is why I am using the NET. 66,000 footnotes, references to other versions and translations and scholarly articles and books. And historical backgrounds geography and successions of kings and families.

I rarely have to run to a commentary or lexicon anymore, as the footnotes are so extensive. Sometimes, I don't like a line or two. But generally, it is very modern English, and an easy read, if you don't get too caught up in the footnotes! Lol
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
4,940
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#34
The Jews are busy turning to Yeshua at a rapid rate... our King is on his way
There is a new universal church where Jews and gentiles meet together accepting both the Father and Christ as one.
 
Jan 25, 2015
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#35
There is a new universal church where Jews and gentiles meet together accepting both the Father and Christ as one.
Amazing my friend. I know you are older but I would never have thought it to be possible even in my lifetime :)
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#36
From Jews point of view,
How to prove the following from old testament (not from new testament)?
1. How to prove that God would born as a human, and the human can be worshipped as God?
2. How to prove that Messiah should be the God, but not just a man anointed by God?

Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 explain about the suffering, but do not answer the above I think.

Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 explains; "God is not man" (Impossible) . He remains without mother or father, without beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.

Jesus as the Son of man was a man who did the will of the father that abided in his earthen body of death. He did not do the will of the corrupted flesh as a prophet, apostle.
 
Jun 6, 2020
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#37
the usefulness of the NET is in its footnotes, not its translation.
As with all commentary (which is what the footnotes are) and all translations, the NET has its strengths and weaknesses.

here are the notes for John 20:28; you may be interested in ignoring them :)
We are well served by remembering the wise advice of the Jewish bookseller.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,723
358
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#38
Psalms 22 and Isaiah 53 explains; "God is not man" (Impossible) . He remains without mother or father, without beginning of Spirit life or end thereof.

Jesus as the Son of man was a man who did the will of the father that abided in his earthen body of death. He did not do the will of the corrupted flesh as a prophet, apostle.
Well garee, since Jesus is the Son of Man which denotes He is just a man according to you, then please explain the Jewish "idiom" what it means that Jesus is "The Son of God?" PS: Where in the Bible does it say God cannot become a man or is not a man?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#39
Well garee, since Jesus is the Son of Man which denotes He is just a man according to you, then please explain the Jewish "idiom" what it means that Jesus is "The Son of God?" PS: Where in the Bible does it say God cannot become a man or is not a man?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

I would offer.

Not just a man but a man who did not do His own will of the corrupted flesh. but did do the will of our unseen that worked in Jesus together perfectly. Yet without sin .

The Son of God would speak of the power of God the Holy Spirit of God. No such thing as holiness of the corrupted flesh and blood. It has no power. Jesus said: It flesh and blood profits for zero.

Flesh = no Power dead
Spirit = Power living

Romans 1:3-4 King James Version (KJV) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
 

FlyingDove

Senior Member
Dec 27, 2017
986
326
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#40
Thanks. I understand the trinitarian explanation of the verses you’ve quoted. The OP was asking about how Jews understand the OT.
My comment was directed to you, not the OP or it's poster. Point being Abrahams father is pre-incarnation OT Jehovah/God the Son.