As a field of study Christianity and most prominent religions are based off of a specific text or compiled work. Many of the discussions on many theological issues presented on this board remain oriented around the Christian version of this text. Ever since Galilleo, or Copernicus advanced the revolutionary ideas opposed by the Church at the time the way the Bible is interpreted has been changing. Representation of the Bible has been slowly shifting awkwardly and without official declaration from a literal description of the world, its creation, and the events Jesus Christ participated in, to an anecdotal approach. My question/topic of discussion i would enjoy expounding upon in broad terms is this: As the Bible becomes a set of principles defined by anecdote and not literal events, what separation is there between other religions espousing very similar principles?
god in a general and philisophical approach as opposed to one dictated by doctrine
- Thread starter thelevite
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J
If scripture were reduced to anecdotal references then there is no reason to weigh it more heavily than other religions. But there is a difference between anecdotal and historical. Unlike the book of Mormon which lacks archaeological evidence to back it, or the Vedas which are largely disconnected from specific human events supported by outside documentation or the Koran which are dictates and guidelines, The Jewish and Christian texts are rooted in events and places with measurable foot prints.
While not everything is proven scientifically(the Bible is not a scientific document) or historically there are significant portions that are supported by non-biblical sources that move much of scripture past the anecdotal to historical. A leap of faith is still required but, scripture is more than anecdotal.
However, if there were no proofs outside the Bible, there would still be the pull of the Holy Spirit and God giving us eyes to see and ears to hear. God has given us more than that though. Much of scriptures passes the burden of proof needed from a legal tradition or historical perspective.
The challenge for believers has always been what to take literally, figuratively, metaphorically etc. Even though it is authoritative and inspired, we are still capable of misreading it in our own limited and fallen state.
While not everything is proven scientifically(the Bible is not a scientific document) or historically there are significant portions that are supported by non-biblical sources that move much of scripture past the anecdotal to historical. A leap of faith is still required but, scripture is more than anecdotal.
However, if there were no proofs outside the Bible, there would still be the pull of the Holy Spirit and God giving us eyes to see and ears to hear. God has given us more than that though. Much of scriptures passes the burden of proof needed from a legal tradition or historical perspective.
The challenge for believers has always been what to take literally, figuratively, metaphorically etc. Even though it is authoritative and inspired, we are still capable of misreading it in our own limited and fallen state.
C
There are comparisons between religions, there is comparitive theology. There are also distinctions and notable difference that cannot be reconciled. Also I would question why you think that the Bible is not based on literal events? The Bible is open to anecdote, moreso it is also historical fact, truth from God, a record of true, genuine historical events.
first, I would like to tell you there is no interprtation of the Bible, it is a revealation that only God can give and he do so by his Holy Spirit. and to all those who have him is the children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. if you don't have the Spirit of God them the bible will be like gibberish, and that is why people try to interprate the bible, they can't hear from God.
if you read in the book of Job, chpt. 38.... you will see a literal discription of some of the things God has don in the creations of the earth, and the redoing of all things that is in the earth... and in Genesis chp 1.. and some things are just common sense.
and to you saying that these are only anocdote and not literal, then we can say the same for scientist.. they was not there when the earth was created.. who to say that what they calim is not made up; which it is. there is no such thing as evolution. but we have so many so much to tell about what God has done and what he is still doing. it is not just in words and we don't need sceince to find reasonfor what we personally experience with our God.
who or what can explain, we can pray to God for something and it happens in a way we can't say we did it. that we see things happen before they happen and if good we thank God for it and if bad we pray He will intervene and He does, How is it that a complete stranger (pastors) can tell a person all they prayed and asked God for and what God said he was going to do for them and it happens that exact way? how can a person who is at their last days of life, completely heal and no doctor or scientist can answer it? how can someone have their heart torn in a car accident, said that he was to have died instantly, but God gave him time to make his peace before he died...He was talking when he came in the hospital... the doctors told us they don't no how he is still alive for his heart was ripped by his ribs there is millions of accounts from other people that defines logic.. but is real and to this day scienctist can't explaian nor will they ever. like God said the foolish things of him will comfined the wise of this world. and the bible can explain everything that happens in this world, everything, I mean everything and it is impossible for any amount of man come together and be able to do that.. they can try,, but it wont happen. science is a way God intended for us to see the mighty powers he has in creating this earth, but the devil has taken it to try and explain aawya God. but in due time all will shut their mouth. And ; you will have to see it for yourself for the things of God are hiding from them that are of the world for he say that they are blinded by satan, that they will not see the truth. Their hearts and mind are to be open and want to receive the truth and he will give it to them who seek it. and for when you said for the different religions, it will take long to explain that to you. but some of it is in this reply.. cause no other religion does the things God do for us... and I haven't even touched the foot of the ice berg with the things God has done for me that can not be explained, "not even"
if you read in the book of Job, chpt. 38.... you will see a literal discription of some of the things God has don in the creations of the earth, and the redoing of all things that is in the earth... and in Genesis chp 1.. and some things are just common sense.
and to you saying that these are only anocdote and not literal, then we can say the same for scientist.. they was not there when the earth was created.. who to say that what they calim is not made up; which it is. there is no such thing as evolution. but we have so many so much to tell about what God has done and what he is still doing. it is not just in words and we don't need sceince to find reasonfor what we personally experience with our God.
who or what can explain, we can pray to God for something and it happens in a way we can't say we did it. that we see things happen before they happen and if good we thank God for it and if bad we pray He will intervene and He does, How is it that a complete stranger (pastors) can tell a person all they prayed and asked God for and what God said he was going to do for them and it happens that exact way? how can a person who is at their last days of life, completely heal and no doctor or scientist can answer it? how can someone have their heart torn in a car accident, said that he was to have died instantly, but God gave him time to make his peace before he died...He was talking when he came in the hospital... the doctors told us they don't no how he is still alive for his heart was ripped by his ribs there is millions of accounts from other people that defines logic.. but is real and to this day scienctist can't explaian nor will they ever. like God said the foolish things of him will comfined the wise of this world. and the bible can explain everything that happens in this world, everything, I mean everything and it is impossible for any amount of man come together and be able to do that.. they can try,, but it wont happen. science is a way God intended for us to see the mighty powers he has in creating this earth, but the devil has taken it to try and explain aawya God. but in due time all will shut their mouth. And ; you will have to see it for yourself for the things of God are hiding from them that are of the world for he say that they are blinded by satan, that they will not see the truth. Their hearts and mind are to be open and want to receive the truth and he will give it to them who seek it. and for when you said for the different religions, it will take long to explain that to you. but some of it is in this reply.. cause no other religion does the things God do for us... and I haven't even touched the foot of the ice berg with the things God has done for me that can not be explained, "not even"
C
There is no need for interpretation. The Bible is The Living Word of God because God said He and
His Word The Bible are one and the same.
All other religions do not have a Living God that wrote them. Christianity is not a religion. It is a
way of life following God's Laws and having a personal relationship with The Living God.
Christianity is only called a religion because man has a need to name everything.
The Holy Spirit is unique to Christianity. The Holy Spirit is Jesus dealing with and physically touching
us. Once The Holy Spirit touches you, you will never be the same. No other spiritual teaching can
claim this.
The events of the Bible are real and science has proved many of them. There are many things the
Bible said thousands of years ago but man has only proven in last few hundred years.
Just because man is too proud to bow to his Creator doesn't mean the Bible isn't real. It doesn't
matter if a person believes the Bible or God. That's his choice. But when Jesus returns his choice
will be his undoing.
No other spiritual teaching tells of man's dependent nature and his inability to save himself. All
man-made teachings demonstrate how man is sufficient and has the ability to redeem himself.
Man is the only creature on earth that declares his independence and lack of need for others
yet spends his entire life searching for other things to fulfill his empty existence.
If man is his own answer, why do all the problems today exist with the perfect knowledge of
man to correct them?
Man can not create water but his existence depends on it yet he says he needs nothing.
Man can not grow his own food and is dependent on his local grocery store yet says he needs
nothing.
Man can not heal himself if he gets sick and is dependent on a doctor yet says he needs nothing.
The greatest, strongest, smartest, most powerful man in the world is but a wandering fool if a
little dirt gets in his eyes.
Man can claim all he wants to. But unlike man, God backs up His Word.
S
Well, to answer your specific question, as the Bible becomes a a set of principles defined by anecdotes, there really is not much of a separation between Christianity and other religions with similar principles.
That's a good question to ask, Thelevite. It is safe to say that since the Enlightenment, after seeing the horrors that could come from wars sparked by religious differences, Christians have sought ways to make Christianity more agreeable, leading to a direct evolution from Christianity, to Deism, to Athiesm, and to the post-modern "I'm ok, your ok" mindset. No one wants to offend anyone, so Christianity is often presented as a feel-good, love-thy-neighbor's-religion-even- if-it-conflicts-with-your-own set of principles to follow. The rules are, that to be a Christian, just love Jesus and try to be a good person. That's it.
I think this is the problem with relying solely on the Bible as a basis for one's religion. The words in the Bible never change. Someone said the Bible was a living, breathing document. No, that's the Constitution of the United States. The Constitution can be amended as needed, but the Bible is pretty much set. The Bible is not the incarnation of the Word of God, Jesus Christ is. He is the living breathing Word of God. He did things on earth in a real historical time in real historical locations and within a real historical culture. From his ministry, his live, and the life of the early Christian church after his ascension to Heaven, we have developed, over time, a living breathing tradition of Christianity, such is found in the Catholic West, Orthodox East, and in many of the mainline Protestant traditions post-Reformation. These denominations of Christianity have not boiled down their beliefs to mere principles based off of anecdotes. They can't. What is done in their Churches must be in harmony with the fundamental message of the Bible, must foster a life in keeping with the teachings of Christ, must be adequate to human experience and make sense in the context of peoples experiences, must be internally coherent, and it must help illumine the purpose of life.
Scripture is privileged because of divine inspiration, and the words of scripture are a revelation by God to man. Tradition passes down an accurate telling of revelation. Christianity is rooted in the resurrection, and the resurrection makes Christianity unique. Tradition connects current reflections with the foundational events of God’s revelation, and these with the understanding of the community (the Church) through time. It basically keeps faith alive, so that it isn't reduces to anecdotal musing.
Modern thought spurns revelation and tradition. It reduces Jesus Christ to a well-meaning wise-man who lived and died a long time ago. The Resurrection changes this notion for Christians. The resurrection means that Christ is alive now and always. He still works in the world because he is still alive. His actions are not limited to time and place, because he now exists outside of time and place and can therefore be present at all times and all places. This is all, of course, accepted on faith. It can not be empirically proven. The more we reduce Christianity to feel-good anecdotes, the less we need this faith and Christ is desired less by many who call themselves Christians...and in the end, we have nothing specific to Christianity that can't be found elsewhere.
That's a good question to ask, Thelevite. It is safe to say that since the Enlightenment, after seeing the horrors that could come from wars sparked by religious differences, Christians have sought ways to make Christianity more agreeable, leading to a direct evolution from Christianity, to Deism, to Athiesm, and to the post-modern "I'm ok, your ok" mindset. No one wants to offend anyone, so Christianity is often presented as a feel-good, love-thy-neighbor's-religion-even- if-it-conflicts-with-your-own set of principles to follow. The rules are, that to be a Christian, just love Jesus and try to be a good person. That's it.
I think this is the problem with relying solely on the Bible as a basis for one's religion. The words in the Bible never change. Someone said the Bible was a living, breathing document. No, that's the Constitution of the United States. The Constitution can be amended as needed, but the Bible is pretty much set. The Bible is not the incarnation of the Word of God, Jesus Christ is. He is the living breathing Word of God. He did things on earth in a real historical time in real historical locations and within a real historical culture. From his ministry, his live, and the life of the early Christian church after his ascension to Heaven, we have developed, over time, a living breathing tradition of Christianity, such is found in the Catholic West, Orthodox East, and in many of the mainline Protestant traditions post-Reformation. These denominations of Christianity have not boiled down their beliefs to mere principles based off of anecdotes. They can't. What is done in their Churches must be in harmony with the fundamental message of the Bible, must foster a life in keeping with the teachings of Christ, must be adequate to human experience and make sense in the context of peoples experiences, must be internally coherent, and it must help illumine the purpose of life.
Scripture is privileged because of divine inspiration, and the words of scripture are a revelation by God to man. Tradition passes down an accurate telling of revelation. Christianity is rooted in the resurrection, and the resurrection makes Christianity unique. Tradition connects current reflections with the foundational events of God’s revelation, and these with the understanding of the community (the Church) through time. It basically keeps faith alive, so that it isn't reduces to anecdotal musing.
Modern thought spurns revelation and tradition. It reduces Jesus Christ to a well-meaning wise-man who lived and died a long time ago. The Resurrection changes this notion for Christians. The resurrection means that Christ is alive now and always. He still works in the world because he is still alive. His actions are not limited to time and place, because he now exists outside of time and place and can therefore be present at all times and all places. This is all, of course, accepted on faith. It can not be empirically proven. The more we reduce Christianity to feel-good anecdotes, the less we need this faith and Christ is desired less by many who call themselves Christians...and in the end, we have nothing specific to Christianity that can't be found elsewhere.
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D
Yeah that would be the apostle Paul in his letter to the Hebrews.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
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cookie39 you said something to the effect of this: "and in Genesis chp 1.. and some things are just common sense.
and to you saying that these are only anocdote and not literal, then we can say the same for scientist.. they was not there when the earth was created.. who to say that what they calim is not made up; which it is. there is no such thing as evolution. but we have so many so much to tell about what God has done and what he is still doing. it is not just in words and we don't need sceince to find reasonfor what we personally experience with our God."
First of all, science as a general field has been wrong for thousands of years. And as a community there has been accepted ideas that were wildly and in hindsight almost comically wrong. It would be naive to assume we are in a position now where suddenly these misconceptions have all been replaced with "real" or "true" scientific models. As far as "real" and "true" go in that context.
Furthermore I am not trying to say that everything in the Bible is anecdote. There is however a number of stories that seem unusually fantastical through "just common sense." There are many of these examples. Some of them are pronounced as miracles and are named that because they fall outside our scope of understanding at the time and now. These I have no problem understanding and accepting as God's work. Where I have issue and a fact that I have been struggling with throughout my life is that when science offers empirical evidence against certain foundations of Biblical "truth" that are taken as literal. Cookie39 worked immaculately into my struggle as they pointed to Genesis 1 as an explanation of a literal historic event. This of course has been painfully explored throughout various sources throughout our Christian community. There are verses such as "With the Lord, a day is like a thousand years …" (2 Peter 3:8) which point to a figurative translation of this verse. However the Bible is full of prose, ambiguous terms and thousands of pages of stories.
The point here is that the basis of the separation of religions is the validity of each text, and the corresponding representation of historical fact. This is obviously only one part as culture and cultural geography play a much larger part globally. But in a society where all the information about various religions is provided, with each unique historical references and claims to irrefutable fact, what fundamental difference is offered between religion. The fact that one of the most basic tenants of the Christian faith (ie. Genesis) is falling into the category of anecdote, lends support to the fact that the bible is a series of stories true or anecdotal that are meant to represent certain ideas. Certain values and responsibilities that are made obvious in the ten commandments.
I say true or anecdotal to respect the idea that many parts of the Bible contain truth, but I maintain it is a truth to serve a purpose, and that purpose is not definitively to represent the ides of God and Jesus, but to use the idea of God and Jesus to represent these ideas.
The basic idea that I have is that all religions contain fundamental rules defining how we should live. These sets of guide lines or commandments are similar. In no easy way of saying this, I have come to view Christianity and religion abroad as a way of inspiring the people to adhere to these principles. For me to walk down the street pronouncing the ten commandments would be silly and have little effect. To create something unknown and omnipotent ready to discipline the people if these ideals were disobeyed however, is something different.
My opinion is that organized religion was and is a means to a better world but it is the values, and not the unique doctrines of each, that will lead us there. Obviously the problem with my philosophy is that without religion it would be just me walking down a street administering my views on positive values and actions. The view that religion is a convenient way of using an unprovable God to convince the populace, or personally to convince yourself, to act in accordance to the commandments is controversial. Please find time to disagree.
And finally i am not proposing a conspiracy where Peter and John got around a campfire and proposed that they wanted to bring a greater humanity to their world. I am proposing the fact that throughout select compilations of various books and texts the Bible evolved into a text much like those of other religions, in which fact is sacrificed for persuasion.
And in preemptive response the motive behind this was not necessarily evil or done with bad intentions, as I see it however, there is no other explanation when you compare Christianity to other religions in a historical context. The facts set forth in various texts (ie the Bible and the Qur'an) contradict each other. One of the sets of facts is wrong. The principles of each however can co-exist. In light of these comparisons how can one possibly logically step forward every day and define themselves as Christians? When instead they are defined by a set of global commandments not set forth by God but an inherent set of qualities that we feel compelled to strive towards to achieve responsibility to ourselves and fellow compatriots in this life.
and to you saying that these are only anocdote and not literal, then we can say the same for scientist.. they was not there when the earth was created.. who to say that what they calim is not made up; which it is. there is no such thing as evolution. but we have so many so much to tell about what God has done and what he is still doing. it is not just in words and we don't need sceince to find reasonfor what we personally experience with our God."
First of all, science as a general field has been wrong for thousands of years. And as a community there has been accepted ideas that were wildly and in hindsight almost comically wrong. It would be naive to assume we are in a position now where suddenly these misconceptions have all been replaced with "real" or "true" scientific models. As far as "real" and "true" go in that context.
Furthermore I am not trying to say that everything in the Bible is anecdote. There is however a number of stories that seem unusually fantastical through "just common sense." There are many of these examples. Some of them are pronounced as miracles and are named that because they fall outside our scope of understanding at the time and now. These I have no problem understanding and accepting as God's work. Where I have issue and a fact that I have been struggling with throughout my life is that when science offers empirical evidence against certain foundations of Biblical "truth" that are taken as literal. Cookie39 worked immaculately into my struggle as they pointed to Genesis 1 as an explanation of a literal historic event. This of course has been painfully explored throughout various sources throughout our Christian community. There are verses such as "With the Lord, a day is like a thousand years …" (2 Peter 3:8) which point to a figurative translation of this verse. However the Bible is full of prose, ambiguous terms and thousands of pages of stories.
The point here is that the basis of the separation of religions is the validity of each text, and the corresponding representation of historical fact. This is obviously only one part as culture and cultural geography play a much larger part globally. But in a society where all the information about various religions is provided, with each unique historical references and claims to irrefutable fact, what fundamental difference is offered between religion. The fact that one of the most basic tenants of the Christian faith (ie. Genesis) is falling into the category of anecdote, lends support to the fact that the bible is a series of stories true or anecdotal that are meant to represent certain ideas. Certain values and responsibilities that are made obvious in the ten commandments.
I say true or anecdotal to respect the idea that many parts of the Bible contain truth, but I maintain it is a truth to serve a purpose, and that purpose is not definitively to represent the ides of God and Jesus, but to use the idea of God and Jesus to represent these ideas.
The basic idea that I have is that all religions contain fundamental rules defining how we should live. These sets of guide lines or commandments are similar. In no easy way of saying this, I have come to view Christianity and religion abroad as a way of inspiring the people to adhere to these principles. For me to walk down the street pronouncing the ten commandments would be silly and have little effect. To create something unknown and omnipotent ready to discipline the people if these ideals were disobeyed however, is something different.
My opinion is that organized religion was and is a means to a better world but it is the values, and not the unique doctrines of each, that will lead us there. Obviously the problem with my philosophy is that without religion it would be just me walking down a street administering my views on positive values and actions. The view that religion is a convenient way of using an unprovable God to convince the populace, or personally to convince yourself, to act in accordance to the commandments is controversial. Please find time to disagree.
And finally i am not proposing a conspiracy where Peter and John got around a campfire and proposed that they wanted to bring a greater humanity to their world. I am proposing the fact that throughout select compilations of various books and texts the Bible evolved into a text much like those of other religions, in which fact is sacrificed for persuasion.
And in preemptive response the motive behind this was not necessarily evil or done with bad intentions, as I see it however, there is no other explanation when you compare Christianity to other religions in a historical context. The facts set forth in various texts (ie the Bible and the Qur'an) contradict each other. One of the sets of facts is wrong. The principles of each however can co-exist. In light of these comparisons how can one possibly logically step forward every day and define themselves as Christians? When instead they are defined by a set of global commandments not set forth by God but an inherent set of qualities that we feel compelled to strive towards to achieve responsibility to ourselves and fellow compatriots in this life.
C
How? how does a Christian step forward and proclaim faith and belief in the Lord Jesus Christ?
Because it's written in their hearts and minds as well as in His word, knowing His word to be true and accurate, and being guided by what has been written in your heart and put into your mind by the sovereign God, your Creator. A Christian recognizes his/her Creator, it is apparent, clearly seen and heard, they cannot deny the reality of the fact, and this IS set forth by God. It's not a personal feeling and humans do not strive for any righteousness, but it is that God is righteous.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the council of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, not sitteth in the seat of the scornful." Psalms 1:1
Because it's written in their hearts and minds as well as in His word, knowing His word to be true and accurate, and being guided by what has been written in your heart and put into your mind by the sovereign God, your Creator. A Christian recognizes his/her Creator, it is apparent, clearly seen and heard, they cannot deny the reality of the fact, and this IS set forth by God. It's not a personal feeling and humans do not strive for any righteousness, but it is that God is righteous.
"Blessed is the man that walketh not in the council of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, not sitteth in the seat of the scornful." Psalms 1:1
J
When Buddha sat down under his tree and contemplated the corrupt nature of the world he in his own ability came up with general guiding principles. He never claimed to be savior, God or divine. He just wanted to correct the corrupt religious system that Hinduism had become in his time. There are many principles in Buddhism that are quite similar to Christs teachings. His followers elevated his status.
Humanism, through enlightened self interest, comes up with many of the same principles as well.
God designed us as people with with a basic nature with common needs and desires. The moral systems that govern humanity will largely be similar in some respects because it is inherent in social order to function.
For example, by enlarge, it doesn't matter where you go in the world, it is understood that you cannot trust a thief. Various cultures react differently to how and who should be stolen from and who should do it. But, there is not much debate on who likes to be stolen from. In a similar manner a moral code can be established that looks very much like the Christian moral system.
the Bible is more than a moral system where good behavior has been codified. There are unique claims made by Christ-He is the only way to eternal salvation, He is God, He died and rose again. He requires a commitment to Him through faith in order for man's broken relationship with the God creator to be restored .
I would posit that Christians sometimes struggle with what to make of scripture as they infer meanings that were not necessarily intended initially. As an example, when God caused the sun to stand still in the sky in the OT for Gideon, that passage was taken to mean the sun circled the Earth by following generations of readers of the text.
The story was told from man's perspective at the time. We split theological hairs ten different ways and try to squeeze meaning from passages and at times we go too far. To this day we say "the sun sets; the sun rises"; and from where we stand it appears to do so. I don't see a time in the near future where we say, "the Earth rotated another 180 degrees on its axis relative to our position again and we are in the shadow."
For many people Copernicus and Galileo were a threat to their faith. To paraphrase the church leaders at the time "Scripture says the Earth is the center (never mind the idea more fully came from Aristotle and the church absorbed it making it dogma when it shouldn't have) how can these heretics be right? Make them recant or kill them."
Just because, the scripture was twisted the core of the story remains intact. God guided a people--His people to establish themselves. He cared enough about the process of establishing His people that He inserted Himself in the natural order of things as part of an ongoing relationship and grand plan to redeem the broken relationship with His fallen creation. Christianity is about relationship--God's with humanity.
At times it is a real struggle to balance what a passage says against our desire to know beyond a shadow of a doubt whatever we feel the need to know. People want assurance and will make more of a passage than it says. At it core the Bible is a record of God's relationship with mankind. It is not by any means complete. It lets us know enough of God's character and what mankind has done to set itself in the position it is in now and what God has done to restore a broken relationship.
Another example, the early Christians largely believed in Christs imminent return. They did not have the sophisticated understanding of eschatology we have today in its various forms. Many early Christians believed the human body had to be buried intact in order to be resurrected.
Just because they were wrong on a few details does not alter the larger truth.
Also, I think it is helpful to remember that science has been wrong many times about Biblical truth. When I was younger it was regularly said by many scientists that King David was a fictitious character made up to establish a myth to validate the existence of the Jews as a people. King David could not have existed or there would be proof in the historical, archaeological record outside the Bible. For two decades from when I first head that there was not proof for King David there wasn't any. Then archaeologist found territorial markers for the house of King David and all of a sudden there was extra-Biblical proof of the line of David. I could go on on over 100 historical points like this.
I personally don't have one shred of my faith dependant on whether God created the world in seven literal days or He is the prime mover that caused all things to come into being over more time. I still have a personal God on record as being personally involved in my life who wants to reveal to me truth. I am not going to hold God responsible for my inability to understand His perfect holiness and I am not going to expect the scientific community to divine all the mysteries of an infinite God in the few centuries where we have been fine tuning the scientific method.
Humanism, through enlightened self interest, comes up with many of the same principles as well.
God designed us as people with with a basic nature with common needs and desires. The moral systems that govern humanity will largely be similar in some respects because it is inherent in social order to function.
For example, by enlarge, it doesn't matter where you go in the world, it is understood that you cannot trust a thief. Various cultures react differently to how and who should be stolen from and who should do it. But, there is not much debate on who likes to be stolen from. In a similar manner a moral code can be established that looks very much like the Christian moral system.
the Bible is more than a moral system where good behavior has been codified. There are unique claims made by Christ-He is the only way to eternal salvation, He is God, He died and rose again. He requires a commitment to Him through faith in order for man's broken relationship with the God creator to be restored .
I would posit that Christians sometimes struggle with what to make of scripture as they infer meanings that were not necessarily intended initially. As an example, when God caused the sun to stand still in the sky in the OT for Gideon, that passage was taken to mean the sun circled the Earth by following generations of readers of the text.
The story was told from man's perspective at the time. We split theological hairs ten different ways and try to squeeze meaning from passages and at times we go too far. To this day we say "the sun sets; the sun rises"; and from where we stand it appears to do so. I don't see a time in the near future where we say, "the Earth rotated another 180 degrees on its axis relative to our position again and we are in the shadow."
For many people Copernicus and Galileo were a threat to their faith. To paraphrase the church leaders at the time "Scripture says the Earth is the center (never mind the idea more fully came from Aristotle and the church absorbed it making it dogma when it shouldn't have) how can these heretics be right? Make them recant or kill them."
Just because, the scripture was twisted the core of the story remains intact. God guided a people--His people to establish themselves. He cared enough about the process of establishing His people that He inserted Himself in the natural order of things as part of an ongoing relationship and grand plan to redeem the broken relationship with His fallen creation. Christianity is about relationship--God's with humanity.
At times it is a real struggle to balance what a passage says against our desire to know beyond a shadow of a doubt whatever we feel the need to know. People want assurance and will make more of a passage than it says. At it core the Bible is a record of God's relationship with mankind. It is not by any means complete. It lets us know enough of God's character and what mankind has done to set itself in the position it is in now and what God has done to restore a broken relationship.
Another example, the early Christians largely believed in Christs imminent return. They did not have the sophisticated understanding of eschatology we have today in its various forms. Many early Christians believed the human body had to be buried intact in order to be resurrected.
Just because they were wrong on a few details does not alter the larger truth.
Also, I think it is helpful to remember that science has been wrong many times about Biblical truth. When I was younger it was regularly said by many scientists that King David was a fictitious character made up to establish a myth to validate the existence of the Jews as a people. King David could not have existed or there would be proof in the historical, archaeological record outside the Bible. For two decades from when I first head that there was not proof for King David there wasn't any. Then archaeologist found territorial markers for the house of King David and all of a sudden there was extra-Biblical proof of the line of David. I could go on on over 100 historical points like this.
I personally don't have one shred of my faith dependant on whether God created the world in seven literal days or He is the prime mover that caused all things to come into being over more time. I still have a personal God on record as being personally involved in my life who wants to reveal to me truth. I am not going to hold God responsible for my inability to understand His perfect holiness and I am not going to expect the scientific community to divine all the mysteries of an infinite God in the few centuries where we have been fine tuning the scientific method.
C
When God said He stopped the sun, He meant it, when God says the earth is fixed so it cannot be moved, He meant it. You would do better if you actually trusted the word of God instead of listening to quacks like Copernicus and Galileo who were astrologers and charlatans. I have written a thread called "The Fixed Earth" based on Biblical and astronomical truth. We live in a Geocentric universe, I am sure the Devil is laughing at all the silly pretend christians out there that do not trust in God's word neither do they trust their own eyes, neither do they use their own God given logic and reason but instead they trust in the beast system, they put their trust in the lies of the devil, therefore they cannot do the will of God, becuase they are blind and serve the god of this world.
Here you pretend to be a christian and you contradict scripture, the earth being at the centre of the universe was known by Adam, Enoch, Abraham, all the prophets and the Lord Himself. And we have little post-modern people acting like the prophets and the great men of the Bible were just quaint ignorant country bumpkins, who made up nice stories to tell their kiddies round the campfire! How ridiculous - These men were intellectual and spiritual giants, men who walked with God, men who were taught by God personally, and lttle childlike christians today want to go round saying that these men and God Himself does not know the first thing about science and astronomy, I will tell you something, it is you who are ignorant if you do not trust entirely in the word of God, it will be you who are found wanting and without knowledge, and possibly without salvation, because christians today will not listen, they're too scared of what the world thinks, they're afraid someone might not like them, they're afraid of making a scene or a big deal, they want to cower away into the darkness instead as standing like a beacon of light. And we get this stage where we have the most unscientific, unreasonable, illogical, unfounded, unproven, unbiblical, unholy lies from the pit of hell and little christians today just gobble it up, they just accept the lies, Satan could tell them anything, and they would believe it, as long as it given a fancy name, some glossy pictures som cool music, bells and whistles, a wordly important sounding title, give it everything as long as it contradicts the word of God, and those same little christians will believe it, they will believe the wordly lie, despite what God said and despite their own God given eyes!
Here you pretend to be a christian and you contradict scripture, the earth being at the centre of the universe was known by Adam, Enoch, Abraham, all the prophets and the Lord Himself. And we have little post-modern people acting like the prophets and the great men of the Bible were just quaint ignorant country bumpkins, who made up nice stories to tell their kiddies round the campfire! How ridiculous - These men were intellectual and spiritual giants, men who walked with God, men who were taught by God personally, and lttle childlike christians today want to go round saying that these men and God Himself does not know the first thing about science and astronomy, I will tell you something, it is you who are ignorant if you do not trust entirely in the word of God, it will be you who are found wanting and without knowledge, and possibly without salvation, because christians today will not listen, they're too scared of what the world thinks, they're afraid someone might not like them, they're afraid of making a scene or a big deal, they want to cower away into the darkness instead as standing like a beacon of light. And we get this stage where we have the most unscientific, unreasonable, illogical, unfounded, unproven, unbiblical, unholy lies from the pit of hell and little christians today just gobble it up, they just accept the lies, Satan could tell them anything, and they would believe it, as long as it given a fancy name, some glossy pictures som cool music, bells and whistles, a wordly important sounding title, give it everything as long as it contradicts the word of God, and those same little christians will believe it, they will believe the wordly lie, despite what God said and despite their own God given eyes!
J
Cup-of-Ruin
"When God said He stopped the sun, He meant it, . . .you who are ignorant if you do not trust entirely in the word of God"
I never called into question whether God extended the day. I called into question a geocentric solar system. I accept stopped the sun as a figure of speech. If you don't, I am cool with that. That does not mean I don't accept the Bible as 100% inspired or authoritative just not 100% literal.
"Here you pretend to be a christian"
I don't pretend. That would imply that I am intentionally trying to mislead or be other than what I am. I might be wrong which has happened on more occasions than I care to remember but, you cannot know my thoughts via email so it is a bit presumptuous to say I pretend.
Last time I checked, the requirement to be a Christian was not dependant on a geocentric view of the universe.
"these men and God Himself does not know the first thing about science and astronomy"
I never spoke of the understanding of Adam--to Abraham or of God for that matter. The passage, Joshua 10:11-13 (I should have said Joshua earlier not Gideon), was told from Joshua's perspective as the book was written by him. It does not make the book untrue just because a figure of speach was used or less miraculous since no matter how you slice the natural workings of the heavens were suspended for about a day.
"they're too scared of what the world thinks"
the implication is that I am affraid of what others think and that that fear motivates me to hide in intellectual cowardice. That is just not the case. I live with very real weapons aimed at me and I send people to risk their lives in the face of those same weapons. I am at relative ease in the face of the real threat of death as people try to kill me. I am not concerned with the post-modern thinkers view of my understanding of truth and the Lord of the Universe. If I am wrong it is not out of fear. It is because I came to a sincere opinion based off the evidence in front of me and the clarity the Holy Spirit gives. Since I was baptised I have yet to be given perfect understanding and I am comfortable (not complacent) with that.
So, while you and I might disagree, I am not going to presume to know your thoughts and motivations.
"When God said He stopped the sun, He meant it, . . .you who are ignorant if you do not trust entirely in the word of God"
I never called into question whether God extended the day. I called into question a geocentric solar system. I accept stopped the sun as a figure of speech. If you don't, I am cool with that. That does not mean I don't accept the Bible as 100% inspired or authoritative just not 100% literal.
"Here you pretend to be a christian"
I don't pretend. That would imply that I am intentionally trying to mislead or be other than what I am. I might be wrong which has happened on more occasions than I care to remember but, you cannot know my thoughts via email so it is a bit presumptuous to say I pretend.
Last time I checked, the requirement to be a Christian was not dependant on a geocentric view of the universe.
"these men and God Himself does not know the first thing about science and astronomy"
I never spoke of the understanding of Adam--to Abraham or of God for that matter. The passage, Joshua 10:11-13 (I should have said Joshua earlier not Gideon), was told from Joshua's perspective as the book was written by him. It does not make the book untrue just because a figure of speach was used or less miraculous since no matter how you slice the natural workings of the heavens were suspended for about a day.
"they're too scared of what the world thinks"
the implication is that I am affraid of what others think and that that fear motivates me to hide in intellectual cowardice. That is just not the case. I live with very real weapons aimed at me and I send people to risk their lives in the face of those same weapons. I am at relative ease in the face of the real threat of death as people try to kill me. I am not concerned with the post-modern thinkers view of my understanding of truth and the Lord of the Universe. If I am wrong it is not out of fear. It is because I came to a sincere opinion based off the evidence in front of me and the clarity the Holy Spirit gives. Since I was baptised I have yet to be given perfect understanding and I am comfortable (not complacent) with that.
So, while you and I might disagree, I am not going to presume to know your thoughts and motivations.
The one most important word in the bible is the message of salvation through Jesus Our Lord, and his being the son of God. I have found that all other
[simular] religions reject this message in one way or another. If you reject this truth the word will never be alive for you. You will not be able to see the whole true message of God. Many simular religions will say yes Jesus existed but he was simply a prophet or a wise man that did die. Look and listen closely and you will see that this is the defining word. The truth is before all, their choice to except or reject.
God bless, pickles
[simular] religions reject this message in one way or another. If you reject this truth the word will never be alive for you. You will not be able to see the whole true message of God. Many simular religions will say yes Jesus existed but he was simply a prophet or a wise man that did die. Look and listen closely and you will see that this is the defining word. The truth is before all, their choice to except or reject.
God bless, pickles
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