God, what's Water Baptism for?

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Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
4,796
2,358
113
#1
Do NOT use human reasoning to decide the validity of Water Baptism........human reasoning CANNOT understand the Mind, Heart, Plan and Purposes of God.....

So, how are we to understand? We have to have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying.

In humility, just simply ask God questions and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding.....

Here's how my conversation with God went.......

Me: So, Lord, please may the Holy Spirit help us to understand what Water Baptism is for........

God: What was circumcision for?

Me: A sign of covenant.

God: Could circumcision save anyone?

Me: No.

God: The same is true with Water Baptism - it's a sign of covenant but, it cannot save you.

Me: Lord, please tell me how is Water Baptism a sign of covenant?

God: Water Baptism is to be done in the presence of witnesses that you and I are entering into covenant. I promise to save you with My Son - Jesus Christ with His Blood and Body and I also promise to give you the Holy Spirit that raised Him from the dead; in return you promise to submit to My Will - the Father's Will and believe on the ONLY Savior I have given you, My Son - My Lamb and receive the gift of My Holy Spirit.

In Water Baptism, the person believes and confesses My Son - Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and King. They are placed in My Hands ("into Your Hands, Father I commit my Spirit..."). A sign of total submission to God The Father. In My Hands the person is totally submerged under the water as a sign of being buried with My Son and when the person comes up out of the water, they are raised to new life by the power of God The Holy Spirit - the same Spirit that raised My Son from the dead.

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

Me: Thank You, for giving us understanding. Truly, we know NOTHING unless You, by Your Holy Spirit give us understanding. Thank You, Father.

Whoever has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......amen. :love:(y)
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,830
881
113
#2
We cannot understand the things of God without the Holy Spirit, and then it is hard. If God told us He would clean the sin from our life, and told us we should put those things in our hearts and minds without using the picture of cleansing with water that we know it would be harder for us.

When we visualize our walk it becomes clearer to us. Think of the 23rd psalm. "The Lord is my shepherd", The psalm guides our vision and makes it clear to us what the Lord does for us.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
16,365
1,344
113
#3
What God showed me was how it also relates to being born again, we were born into this world through the waters of the flesh ( that water in the womb) upon coming out of the water being baptized we show we are born into his kingdom one not of the flesh but the spirit.
When I was batpized I said to God I wanted it to be an intimate covanent between our hearts I was actually shocked when you expressed how God said it was a covanent then remembered what I said to him when I was being baptized
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
5,100
1,276
113
#4
Do NOT use human reasoning to decide the validity of Water Baptism........human reasoning CANNOT understand the Mind, Heart, Plan and Purposes of God.....

So, how are we to understand? We have to have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying.

In humility, just simply ask God questions and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding.....

Here's how my conversation with God went.......

Me: So, Lord, please may the Holy Spirit help us to understand what Water Baptism is for........

God: What was circumcision for?

Me: A sign of covenant.

God: Could circumcision save anyone?

Me: No.

God: The same is true with Water Baptism - it's a sign of covenant but, it cannot save you.

Me: Lord, please tell me how is Water Baptism a sign of covenant?

God: Water Baptism is to be done in the presence of witnesses that you and I are entering into covenant. I promise to save you with My Son - Jesus Christ with His Blood and Body and I also promise to give you the Holy Spirit that raised Him from the dead; in return you promise to submit to My Will - the Father's Will and believe on the ONLY Savior I have given you, My Son - My Lamb and receive the gift of My Holy Spirit.

In Water Baptism, the person believes and confesses My Son - Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and King. They are placed in My Hands ("into Your Hands, Father I commit my Spirit..."). A sign of total submission to God The Father. In My Hands the person is totally submerged under the water as a sign of being buried with My Son and when the person comes up out of the water, they are raised to new life by the power of God The Holy Spirit - the same Spirit that raised My Son from the dead.

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

Me: Thank You, for giving us understanding. Truly, we know NOTHING unless You, by Your Holy Spirit give us understanding. Thank You, Father.

Whoever has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......amen. :love:(y)
very interesting and good :). amen.

As I was reading this immediately came to think of Jesus when HE was Baptized. All three of the Godhead were present, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit who ascend as a dove , and the voice of the Father that spoke . All witnesses AS John the Baptist did what ? Bore Record or testified to what he saw. They all witnessed That Jesu was fully committed to enduring the Christ HE entered the water as HE did the grave tomb and HE came out of the water as HE did the gave tomb! IF follow HIM in faith into Baptism Just as Jesus came up out of the water we will too. Just as HE rose from the dead WE shall also.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
4,796
2,358
113
#5
very interesting and good :). amen.

As I was reading this immediately came to think of Jesus when HE was Baptized. All three of the Godhead were present, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit who ascend as a dove , and the voice of the Father that spoke . All witnesses AS John the Baptist did what ? Bore Record or testified to what he saw. They all witnessed That Jesu was fully committed to enduring the Christ HE entered the water as HE did the grave tomb and HE came out of the water as HE did the gave tomb! IF follow HIM in faith into Baptism Just as Jesus came up out of the water we will too. Just as HE rose from the dead WE shall also.
Amen! :love:(y)
 

Benadam

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
494
110
43
#6
We cannot understand the things of God without the Holy Spirit, and then it is hard. If God told us He would clean the sin from our life, and told us we should put those things in our hearts and minds without using the picture of cleansing with water that we know it would be harder for us.

When we visualize our walk it becomes clearer to us. Think of the 23rd psalm. "The Lord is my shepherd", The psalm guides our vision and makes it clear to us what the Lord does for us.
So true. We need a visible sign to help us know the invisible happened.
 

Corban

Active member
Jun 11, 2020
257
85
28
69
#7
Do NOT use human reasoning to decide the validity of Water Baptism........human reasoning CANNOT understand the Mind, Heart, Plan and Purposes of God.....

So, how are we to understand? We have to have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying.

In humility, just simply ask God questions and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding.....

Here's how my conversation with God went.......

Me: So, Lord, please may the Holy Spirit help us to understand what Water Baptism is for........

God: What was circumcision for?

Me: A sign of covenant.

God: Could circumcision save anyone?

Me: No.

God: The same is true with Water Baptism - it's a sign of covenant but, it cannot save you.

Me: Lord, please tell me how is Water Baptism a sign of covenant?

God: Water Baptism is to be done in the presence of witnesses that you and I are entering into covenant. I promise to save you with My Son - Jesus Christ with His Blood and Body and I also promise to give you the Holy Spirit that raised Him from the dead; in return you promise to submit to My Will - the Father's Will and believe on the ONLY Savior I have given you, My Son - My Lamb and receive the gift of My Holy Spirit.

In Water Baptism, the person believes and confesses My Son - Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and King. They are placed in My Hands ("into Your Hands, Father I commit my Spirit..."). A sign of total submission to God The Father. In My Hands the person is totally submerged under the water as a sign of being buried with My Son and when the person comes up out of the water, they are raised to new life by the power of God The Holy Spirit - the same Spirit that raised My Son from the dead.

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

Me: Thank You, for giving us understanding. Truly, we know NOTHING unless You, by Your Holy Spirit give us understanding. Thank You, Father.

Whoever has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......amen. :love:(y)
Really enjoyed your posting. Few Christians know of, or appreciate this aspect of Baptism.

If I may add, the Covenant in question is actually the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. Genesis 17:6-14 reads;

6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."


Now, before I comment on this passage we need to observe three important things. The first is that Abraham was promised THREE seeds, (i) Jesus Christ, (ii) seed as the sand of the sea shore, and (iii) seed as the stars of heaven. And once the predcition of the seed as the stars of heaven was made, the Covenant was extended for Canaan to the "the whole world" Romans 4:13 reads,

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith"

The second is that all Christians, by virtue of the fact of being IN Christ, and belonging to Christ, are, by default, SEED of Abraham" (Gal.3:29)

The third is that 1st Corinthians 15:50-53 states that this body is not fit to partake of the coming Kingdom of God when He sets it up on earth. So we must either die and be resurrected LIKE Christ, or be changed into a body LIKE Christ's if we are living when our Lord Jesus comes. This means the "cutting off" of the whole body. Our Lord calls His death "circumcision" made without hands, and chnages the SIGN of the Covenant to FULL IMMERSION in water. Colossians 2:10-12 reads;

10 "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism
, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."


The subject here is us being COMPLETE IN Christ, and the completeness pertains to who RULES the earth. The "Circumcision OF CHRIST" is the cutting off of His whole body on the cross, and the way it is applied is by a new SIGN - "BURIED in the waters of BAPTISM. The foreskin cut off all males of Israel was good enough for INHERITING Canaan, but for the "WHOLE WORLD" the whole body must be cut off.

Now, returning to Genesis 17 above it would be good for us to note a few things:
  1. The context is "KINGS" (verse 6)
  2. The next thing to note is that this Covenant is an "everlasting" one. It is not like the Covenant of Law which needs a New one (v.7)
  3. Next, this Covenant is a serious one. The "token" in the flesh is COMPULSORY
  4. Next, the one who refuses this "token" is cut off from his people. That is, he might still be an Israelite, but when it comes to INHERITING, he is DISOWNED.
Now, contemporary Christianity neatly side steps this issue by teaching that we are destined for heaven. But, as we see in multiple scriptures, beginning in Genesis 1:26-28, man is made to rule the EARTH. And since God has not changed His plan, nor can any one change it for Him, INHERITING the EARTH suddenly become the GOAL of salvation. We are not saved for salvation's sake. We are saved in order to return us to the original PURPOSE of subduing and ruling the earth. When our Lord Jesus was telling His disciples about being KINGS, he said that a rich man would hardly ENTER the Kingdom. His disciples, having been taught by Jesus for three and one half years, immediately understood that this man was NOT SAVED to the uttermost. Yes, his sins were put away, yes, he was born again, yes he was a son of God, BUT, when it came to the INHERITANCE of this SON, he would be cut off from his people! (Matt.19:25).

This is again confirmed in John 3:3-5. In verse 3 one can SEE the Kingdom if one is born again, but in verse 5 one can only ENTER the Kingdom when he has been born out of the Spirit AND WATER. The grand example is Moses. He was an Israelite, seed of Abraham. He was chosen by God to serve. He served diligently and faithfully except for ONE moment of DISOBEDIENCE. He goes up Mount Nebo and SEES the Kingdom of Israel, but he may not ENTER it.

The Christian who neglects Baptism is still forgiven - for this is by FAITH. He is born a son of God - for this is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13). He possesses eternal life - for this is by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16). But he is DISOWNED when Christ chooses co-kings to INHERIT the Kingdom on earth. He will be banished in disgrace! The parables all tell of one thing. The INHERITING of the Kingdom IS BY OBEDIENCE! And who is that Christian that cannot keep the very first commandment of Christ - BE IMMERSED in Jesus' Name! He is that "SEED OF ABRAHAM WHO IS CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE!"
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,672
781
113
#8
Really enjoyed your posting. Few Christians know of, or appreciate this aspect of Baptism.

If I may add, the Covenant in question is actually the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. Genesis 17:6-14 reads;

6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."


Now, before I comment on this passage we need to observe three important things. The first is that Abraham was promised THREE seeds, (i) Jesus Christ, (ii) seed as the sand of the sea shore, and (iii) seed as the stars of heaven. And once the predcition of the seed as the stars of heaven was made, the Covenant was extended for Canaan to the "the whole world" Romans 4:13 reads,

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith"

The second is that all Christians, by virtue of the fact of being IN Christ, and belonging to Christ, are, by default, SEED of Abraham" (Gal.3:29)

The third is that 1st Corinthians 15:50-53 states that this body is not fit to partake of the coming Kingdom of God when He sets it up on earth. So we must either die and be resurrected LIKE Christ, or be changed into a body LIKE Christ's if we are living when our Lord Jesus comes. This means the "cutting off" of the whole body. Our Lord calls His death "circumcision" made without hands, and chnages the SIGN of the Covenant to FULL IMMERSION in water. Colossians 2:10-12 reads;

10 "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism
, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."


The subject here is us being COMPLETE IN Christ, and the completeness pertains to who RULES the earth. The "Circumcision OF CHRIST" is the cutting off of His whole body on the cross, and the way it is applied is by a new SIGN - "BURIED in the waters of BAPTISM. The foreskin cut off all males of Israel was good enough for INHERITING Canaan, but for the "WHOLE WORLD" the whole body must be cut off.

Now, returning to Genesis 17 above it would be good for us to note a few things:
  1. The context is "KINGS" (verse 6)
  2. The next thing to note is that this Covenant is an "everlasting" one. It is not like the Covenant of Law which needs a New one (v.7)
  3. Next, this Covenant is a serious one. The "token" in the flesh is COMPULSORY
  4. Next, the one who refuses this "token" is cut off from his people. That is, he might still be an Israelite, but when it comes to INHERITING, he is DISOWNED.
Now, contemporary Christianity neatly side steps this issue by teaching that we are destined for heaven. But, as we see in multiple scriptures, beginning in Genesis 1:26-28, man is made to rule the EARTH. And since God has not changed His plan, nor can any one change it for Him, INHERITING the EARTH suddenly become the GOAL of salvation. We are not saved for salvation's sake. We are saved in order to return us to the original PURPOSE of subduing and ruling the earth. When our Lord Jesus was telling His disciples about being KINGS, he said that a rich man would hardly ENTER the Kingdom. His disciples, having been taught by Jesus for three and one half years, immediately understood that this man was NOT SAVED to the uttermost. Yes, his sins were put away, yes, he was born again, yes he was a son of God, BUT, when it came to the INHERITANCE of this SON, he would be cut off from his people! (Matt.19:25).

This is again confirmed in John 3:3-5. In verse 3 one can SEE the Kingdom if one is born again, but in verse 5 one can only ENTER the Kingdom when he has been born out of the Spirit AND WATER. The grand example is Moses. He was an Israelite, seed of Abraham. He was chosen by God to serve. He served diligently and faithfully except for ONE moment of DISOBEDIENCE. He goes up Mount Nebo and SEES the Kingdom of Israel, but he may not ENTER it.

The Christian who neglects Baptism is still forgiven - for this is by FAITH. He is born a son of God - for this is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13). He possesses eternal life - for this is by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16). But he is DISOWNED when Christ chooses co-kings to INHERIT the Kingdom on earth. He will be banished in disgrace! The parables all tell of one thing. The INHERITING of the Kingdom IS BY OBEDIENCE! And who is that Christian that cannot keep the very first commandment of Christ - BE IMMERSED in Jesus' Name! He is that "SEED OF ABRAHAM WHO IS CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE!"
The promise of the kingdom is not to the gentiles, Jesus said that himself in Matthew 10:5

Don’t force yourself into the audience of scripture
 

CS1

Moderator
May 23, 2012
5,100
1,276
113
#9
The promise of the kingdom is not to the gentiles, Jesus said that himself in Matthew 10:5

Don’t force yourself into the audience of scripture
LOL please read Matthew 10:5 and on. Jesus did go to Samaria And HE personally brought the Kingdom of God to them. And in Acts Jesus too commissioned Paul as an Apostle to the gentiles and they preached the Kingdom of God to them.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
2,830
881
113
#10
Corban said: "The second is that all Christians, by virtue of the fact of being IN Christ, and belonging to Christ, are, by default, SEED of Abraham" (Gal.3:29)"

We need to remember this, and not think of the Lord in the OT as race conscious, for God valued all people equally. He often reminded the Jews who were listening to him that what he said was also for the strangers, or the sojourners with you.

The Jews have God's special blessings as a race for the work assigned to them, but God values all men the same.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,672
781
113
#11
LOL please read Matthew 10:5 and on. Jesus did go to Samaria And HE personally brought the Kingdom of God to them. And in Acts Jesus too commissioned Paul as an Apostle to the gentiles and they preached the Kingdom of God to them.
Paul never offered the Physical return of Jesus to the gentiles, unlike what peter offered Israel in acts 3:19-21

Kingdom of heaven is not equivalent to kingdom of God, the former refer to the reign of Jesus on earth
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,696
113
#12
Paul never offered the Physical return of Jesus to the gentiles
Sure he did; Titus 2:13.

That and you skipped right on over the rebuttal CS1 offered you and made yet another erroneous conclusion.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,672
781
113
#13
Sure he did; Titus 2:13.

That and you skipped right on over the rebuttal CS1 offered you and made yet another erroneous conclusion.
That is referring to the rapture, the timing does not depend on whether those gentiles in the audience in Titus believed or not.
 
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,696
113
#14
That is referring to the rapture, the timing does not depend on whether those gentiles in the audience in Titus believed or not.
It's referring to the exact same thing Peter stated in Acts 3:19-21. Why not just humble yourself and admit you make numerous errors?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
4,672
781
113
#15
It's referring to the exact same thing Peter stated in Acts 3:19-21. Why not just humble yourself and admit you make numerous errors?
Peter addressed the nation of Israel, who was still the favoured nation of God and the only nation God ever had a covenant with.

Israel had to corporately accept Jesus as their messiah

Us gentiles do not belong to a nation that has a covenant with God.

We are saved individually thru 1 cor 15:1-4, after Israel as a nation has fallen as in romans 11:11
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
31,802
9,814
113
65
Florida
#16
I have conversations with God too but I must say that you are quite the conversationalist in your approach. I might try the format that you and God use to understand other spiritual truths and concepts. My wife did exactly what you did in approaching God about salvation. She got a lot of bad teaching in her early days in church that stuck with her for years. God explained it clearly as He did with you. She cried afterwards because she was so relieved and her heart filled with joy.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
4,796
2,358
113
#17
Really enjoyed your posting. Few Christians know of, or appreciate this aspect of Baptism.

If I may add, the Covenant in question is actually the Covenant of Promise made with Abraham. Genesis 17:6-14 reads;

6 "And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.
7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.
9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant."


Now, before I comment on this passage we need to observe three important things. The first is that Abraham was promised THREE seeds, (i) Jesus Christ, (ii) seed as the sand of the sea shore, and (iii) seed as the stars of heaven. And once the predcition of the seed as the stars of heaven was made, the Covenant was extended for Canaan to the "the whole world" Romans 4:13 reads,

"For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith"

The second is that all Christians, by virtue of the fact of being IN Christ, and belonging to Christ, are, by default, SEED of Abraham" (Gal.3:29)

The third is that 1st Corinthians 15:50-53 states that this body is not fit to partake of the coming Kingdom of God when He sets it up on earth. So we must either die and be resurrected LIKE Christ, or be changed into a body LIKE Christ's if we are living when our Lord Jesus comes. This means the "cutting off" of the whole body. Our Lord calls His death "circumcision" made without hands, and chnages the SIGN of the Covenant to FULL IMMERSION in water. Colossians 2:10-12 reads;

10 "And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism
, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."


The subject here is us being COMPLETE IN Christ, and the completeness pertains to who RULES the earth. The "Circumcision OF CHRIST" is the cutting off of His whole body on the cross, and the way it is applied is by a new SIGN - "BURIED in the waters of BAPTISM. The foreskin cut off all males of Israel was good enough for INHERITING Canaan, but for the "WHOLE WORLD" the whole body must be cut off.

Now, returning to Genesis 17 above it would be good for us to note a few things:
  1. The context is "KINGS" (verse 6)
  2. The next thing to note is that this Covenant is an "everlasting" one. It is not like the Covenant of Law which needs a New one (v.7)
  3. Next, this Covenant is a serious one. The "token" in the flesh is COMPULSORY
  4. Next, the one who refuses this "token" is cut off from his people. That is, he might still be an Israelite, but when it comes to INHERITING, he is DISOWNED.
Now, contemporary Christianity neatly side steps this issue by teaching that we are destined for heaven. But, as we see in multiple scriptures, beginning in Genesis 1:26-28, man is made to rule the EARTH. And since God has not changed His plan, nor can any one change it for Him, INHERITING the EARTH suddenly become the GOAL of salvation. We are not saved for salvation's sake. We are saved in order to return us to the original PURPOSE of subduing and ruling the earth. When our Lord Jesus was telling His disciples about being KINGS, he said that a rich man would hardly ENTER the Kingdom. His disciples, having been taught by Jesus for three and one half years, immediately understood that this man was NOT SAVED to the uttermost. Yes, his sins were put away, yes, he was born again, yes he was a son of God, BUT, when it came to the INHERITANCE of this SON, he would be cut off from his people! (Matt.19:25).

This is again confirmed in John 3:3-5. In verse 3 one can SEE the Kingdom if one is born again, but in verse 5 one can only ENTER the Kingdom when he has been born out of the Spirit AND WATER. The grand example is Moses. He was an Israelite, seed of Abraham. He was chosen by God to serve. He served diligently and faithfully except for ONE moment of DISOBEDIENCE. He goes up Mount Nebo and SEES the Kingdom of Israel, but he may not ENTER it.

The Christian who neglects Baptism is still forgiven - for this is by FAITH. He is born a son of God - for this is by FAITH (Jn.1:12-13). He possesses eternal life - for this is by FAITH (Jn.3:14-16). But he is DISOWNED when Christ chooses co-kings to INHERIT the Kingdom on earth. He will be banished in disgrace! The parables all tell of one thing. The INHERITING of the Kingdom IS BY OBEDIENCE! And who is that Christian that cannot keep the very first commandment of Christ - BE IMMERSED in Jesus' Name! He is that "SEED OF ABRAHAM WHO IS CUT OFF FROM HIS PEOPLE!"
Very interesting. Thank you, Corban!

I do agree that water baptism is the Circumcision of Christ that is the sign of the New Covenant that both Jew and Gentile have been given IN CHRIST.

I also agree that like Circumcision - Water Baptism does NOT save - it’s to be done as a sign of covenant.

I don’t agree that the goal of salvation is to inherit the Earth but, that salvation reconciles us back to our loving Father and restores us back to the Kingdom of God that is coming to Earth - where we rule and reign WITH CHRIST.

Thanks for your post, Corban - I enjoyed it very much and will ponder it. :love:(y)
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#18
Do NOT use human reasoning to decide the validity of Water Baptism........human reasoning CANNOT understand the Mind, Heart, Plan and Purposes of God.....

So, how are we to understand? We have to have ears to hear what the Holy Spirit is saying.

In humility, just simply ask God questions and the Holy Spirit will give us understanding.....

Here's how my conversation with God went.......

Me: So, Lord, please may the Holy Spirit help us to understand what Water Baptism is for........

God: What was circumcision for?

Me: A sign of covenant.

God: Could circumcision save anyone?

Me: No.

God: The same is true with Water Baptism - it's a sign of covenant but, it cannot save you.

Me: Lord, please tell me how is Water Baptism a sign of covenant?

God: Water Baptism is to be done in the presence of witnesses that you and I are entering into covenant. I promise to save you with My Son - Jesus Christ with His Blood and Body and I also promise to give you the Holy Spirit that raised Him from the dead; in return you promise to submit to My Will - the Father's Will and believe on the ONLY Savior I have given you, My Son - My Lamb and receive the gift of My Holy Spirit.

In Water Baptism, the person believes and confesses My Son - Jesus Christ as Lord, Savior and King. They are placed in My Hands ("into Your Hands, Father I commit my Spirit..."). A sign of total submission to God The Father. In My Hands the person is totally submerged under the water as a sign of being buried with My Son and when the person comes up out of the water, they are raised to new life by the power of God The Holy Spirit - the same Spirit that raised My Son from the dead.

Water Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant God The Father, God The Son, and God The Holy Spirit has made with Man. Man is to be ONE with God in the Kingdom of Heaven that is coming.

Me: Thank You, for giving us understanding. Truly, we know NOTHING unless You, by Your Holy Spirit give us understanding. Thank You, Father.

Whoever has an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit is saying......amen. :love:(y)
Outstanding. Awesome.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#19
very interesting and good :). amen.

As I was reading this immediately came to think of Jesus when HE was Baptized. All three of the Godhead were present, Jesus the Son, The Holy Spirit who ascend as a dove , and the voice of the Father that spoke . All witnesses AS John the Baptist did what ? Bore Record or testified to what he saw. They all witnessed That Jesu was fully committed to enduring the Christ HE entered the water as HE did the grave tomb and HE came out of the water as HE did the gave tomb! IF follow HIM in faith into Baptism Just as Jesus came up out of the water we will too. Just as HE rose from the dead WE shall also.
I didn't even think of that all three were present at that time along with a witness to testify.
I wonder what this could mean?
The fact all three were present seems more than just to testify of his baptism it seems like something for us as well
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
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#20
Peter addressed the nation of Israel, who was still the favoured nation of God and the only nation God ever had a covenant with.

Israel had to corporately accept Jesus as their messiah

Us gentiles do not belong to a nation that has a covenant with God.

We are saved individually thru 1 cor 15:1-4, after Israel as a nation has fallen as in romans 11:11
I am going to have to stop you there, true we were not born into the covanent made for Israel but we were born into the covanent spiritually. The Jews even today reject the covanent,at least for the most part i cannot speak for all of them.
But it is also stated that the Jews did not accept it and so it was given to the gentiles, Israel is the physical representation of the covanent we are the spiritual.
Look at it this way, imagine Jesus on the cross now imagine each side of the cross represents something say the left is the gentiles the right is the Jews the top is heaven and the bottom is earth and Jesus being pinned to it and dying on it completes and connects it all.

I suppose you could say in this way we are literally in Christ.