Gods Elect vs man's selction

[Genez]

Hi, Genez. Provide some scripture for us, please. Moses and David were not chosen for salvation?

I did not say "salvation." Careful, please...

I said what they were to receive in their salvation is different for what the Church specifically was chosen for.

Here is what we have been chosen for, and not chosen for for the likes of Moses and David (before church age).

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, ​

the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything ​

under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his ​

glorious body." Philippians 3:20-21​

Where is our citizenship? Heaven!

Our bodies will be of Heaven like the Lord's now is being.
The body of Jesus is no longer made of the elements of the earth.

​

The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. ​

The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. ​

As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the ​

heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven." 1 Corinthians 15:46-48​

We have been warned to no longer know Jesus as he was limited as a man on earth.

Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. ​

Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now ​

we know Him thus no longer. 2 Corinthians 5:16​

The OT Jewish believers (Moses and David, etc.) were all waiting for the promised everlasting Kingdom of God on earth.

Isaiah 65:17-18

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.​

grace and peace ..............

 

[Genez]

The passage continues:

"Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified."

It is about sanctification.

We are already His flesh and His bones.

"For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones."

This is an echo of Adam's declaration over woman (Eve):

“This is now bone of my bones
And flesh of my flesh"

And later, the declaration from the tribes to David:

"Then all the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and spoke, saying, “Indeed we are your bone and your flesh."

This is Kingdom language. It speaks of a bond that cannot be broken.

One only "waiting for heaven" does not understand this. And they have no frame of reference for representation nor appreciation for the fullness of the ministry of reconciliation.

Positional truth declares what is before it is being.
Experiential truth is seeing its fruition.

We must recognize positional truth because God in his omniscience already sees what will be as already being,
and declares it as so.

grace and peace....

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

God so loved the world of believer

Jesus did not die to redeem the sins of all mankind, if so, all mankind would have eternal life, and even you know that the scriptures do not teach that. He only died for those that God gave him (John 6:37-39).

Here's what the Word says 1 John 2:2 (KJV) reads: "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Debunked that easily.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The world in John 3:16 is the world of believers only. The world in John 3:16 and some others, according to Thayer's concordance, says any aggregate, or general collection of particals of any sort (world of believers only) John 1:29, 3:16, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9.

Romans 5:15, 18
“But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!”

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

That makes absolute sense. Tough teaching, but makes sense.

But the Bible doesn't teach it.

Ezekiel 18:31
“For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord, repent and live!”

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

God only elected those whom He knew would believe.

Elected them for what purpose they would serve in his plan for making his enemies into his footstool.

Why is that so difficult for some to grasp?

Because it isn't Scripture. And that has been proven with a load of ignored verses.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

that would be a silly god. Actually no God at all. God only elected who He knew would believe? That's not election. that's a powerless being waiting to see what man will do first before sticking his neck out.

I'd say it's silly. Very silly.

You mean those born into the world who stray from birth, at enmity with God, God haters as scripture teaches, who cannot even appraise spiritual things know they are sinners and care?

Sounds backward to me.

Perhaps because it's not truth?

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you agreed with Calvinism.

 

[Aaron56]

Positional truth declares what is before it is being.
Experiential truth is seeing its fruition.

We must recognize positional truth because God in his omniscience already sees what will be as already being,
and declares it as so.

grace and peace....

Non sequitur.

It's clearly established that the Body of Christ exists both in the earth and in heaven and is made up of those who believe in Him.

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Rest in God is entered into through Christ. Rest is the economy of the eternal wherein people rest from their own work and only do what they see Father God doing. This is the legitimate economy of all who are the Body of Christ.

If we say we cannot enter into rest until we die and go to heaven we've missed the mark. If the reality is available now but you are waiting for another time, you're behind the curve.

 

[Aaron56]

Positional truth declares what is before it is being.
Experiential truth is seeing its fruition.

We must recognize positional truth because God in his omniscience already sees what will be as already being,
and declares it as so.

grace and peace....

I forgot to address your view of positional truth.

Positional truth conveys all the authority of the position.

So, if the scriptures say "we are seated with Christ in Heavenly places" this is not an exposition on the placement of our chair. This is about the authority, available to us now, that comes with the position.

If our position is "in Christ" but, physically, we know we are not in anyone, then our position is spiritual. Nevertheless, our position in Christ is reality. It is NOT allegorical. The spiritual realm is not governed by the laws of the physical realm therefor, time and place cannot be equally addressed when dealing with both.

But, in regards to being "in Christ" there should be a scriptural reference to our position. And there is! There are many phrases that convey this reality. We are:
"in Christ"
"of Christ"
"to have the mind of Christ"
"in fellowship with Him"
"one with Him"
etc.

These are all true now. If our reality speaks of a lesser placement then further sanctification can be expected.

 

[Foghorn]

I am positive that you need a new doctrine

Which doctrine do I presently have now?

 

[Foghorn]

Yes I totally agree with what your saying there . imagine we had no choice but then we get judged by our actions

Yea right.

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Amen

a imagine they never had any choice and were never accountable but he’s just judging them based on what he made them do and gave them no choice in

Right. And I do not see anywhere in scripture where God makes man believe or not believe.

what a God that causes peoples actions then judges then as if it’s thier fault holding them accountable

Man is responsible for his actions and choices.

Man was made free then became slaves to sin the gospel sets us free again to choose life .

How did man become a slave to sin?

yes everyone will be held to account based upon the judges judgements in the gospel

The law you mean?

 

[Foghorn]

But the Bible doesn't teach it.

Ezekiel 18:31
“For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord, repent and live!”

Well sure it does.

 

[Foghorn]

Sorry, I must have misunderstood your post. I thought you agreed with Calvinism.

I take it you don't agree with Calvinism?

But you do make it sound that if I agreed with Calvinism we would be enemies?

 

[Genez]

Because it isn't Scripture. And that has been proven with a load of ignored verses.

You mean God elected those who would reject Him?

I think you did not read what I said correctly..

 

[Foghorn]

You mean God elected those who would reject Him?

I think you did not read what I said correctly..

According to scripture, it's election that starts a salvation process. Or, everyone would reject Him.

 

[FollowerofShiloh]

Which doctrine do I presently have now?

I reread all that you present and it's a mixture of multiple views.
I can appreciate that more.
So essentially, we just don't agree on some things and nothing wrong with that

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Yea right.

Amen

Right. And I do not see anywhere in scripture where God makes man believe or not believe.

Man is responsible for his actions and choices.

How did man become a slave to sin?

The law you mean?

“Man was made free then became slaves to sin the gospel sets us free again to choose life .
How did man become a slave to sin?”

when they are the fruit of the forbidden knowledge of good and evil they became like this

“I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: but I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Remember God made them free but told them not to partake of good and evils knowledge

“And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

mankind became servants of sin way back then look what happened after that

“And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what I was saying is the gospel sets us free from tbat wrong knowledge with the truth

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32, 34, 36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul also speaks of the same

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[Genez]

Non sequitur.

It's clearly established that the Body of Christ exists both in the earth and in heaven and is made up of those who believe in Him.

"Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Rest in God is entered into through Christ. Rest is the economy of the eternal wherein people rest from their own work and only do what they see Father God doing. This is the legitimate economy of all who are the Body of Christ.

If we say we cannot enter into rest until we die and go to heaven we've missed the mark. If the reality is available now but you are waiting for another time, you're behind the curve.

Yes... We are His body.

Just like Eve was Adam's body before the Lord brought her out to be seen.
We are the "Bride of Christ" as Eve was the bride of Adam.

For when resurrected? Like Eve was bone of Adam's bones and flesh of his flesh, so we will be "bone of his bones, and flesh of His glorious flesh.

Yes... We are right now both in heaven and on earth.

For we are now seated with Him in heavenly places.....

Ephesians 2:6-7​

​

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms ​

in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable ​

riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.​

Just like Eve was in Adam before the Lord removed flesh and bone from Adam's side?
So are we now awaiting to be granted our body out from His body.

But, we will not be manifested as God declares we are until we receive our resurrection bodies...

Are you getting what I am saying?

grace and peace .............

 

[Aaron56]

Yes... We are His body.

Just like Eve was Adam's body before the Lord brought her out to be seen.
We are the "Bride of Christ" as Eve was the bride of Adam.

For when resurrected? Like Eve was bone of Adam's bones and flesh of his flesh, so we will be "bone of his bones, and flesh of His glorious flesh.

Yes... We are right now both in heaven and on earth.

For we are now seated with Him in heavenly places.....

Ephesians 2:6-7​

​

And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms ​

in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable ​

riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.​

Just like Eve was in Adam before the Lord removed flesh and bone from Adam's side?
So are we now awaiting to be granted our body out from His body.

But, we will not be manifested as God declares we are until we receive our resurrection bodies...

Are you getting what I am saying?

grace and peace .............

You said this:

That image we will be 'conformed to" will be what we all manifest with our Resurrection Body!

Implying that we are not conformed to His image until we are given our new bodies.

My point: the processes of conformation begins at inclusion into His Body. That happens on this side of the eternal. Furthermore, it continues into the eternal, in the new heaven and earth, with our spiritual bodies.

 

[NOV25]

For what purpose? That is the real issue. See Romans 8:29.

Romans 8:29

[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Not sure how this helps your 4 point Arminianism argument 😅