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Do you realize in a way you are making man responsible for how he was created? man did not create himself. God created man and he created man subject to vanity so that man would fall into sin and it was done for reasons man doesn't understand. And God indeed took responsiblily for what he purposely created by preparing us a savior before the foundation of the world. Why would he have done that if he didn't know his pots would be evil and need a savior? Because he knew what he was creating in man. He knew us BEFORE he created us in our mothers womb. We are not why we sin nor are we the creator of evil, nor are we the creator of ourselves.
Still don't get the idea y'all are trying to express, sorry........... maybe it's the "intervening" part that is confusing me.
Predestination is not intervention by God, rather predestination is proclaiming by God. Proclaiming who will be saved, and who won't be saved........seems to me that intervention suggests that we make a choice, and God says, hey, wait, that isn't going to be good for you, you best reconsider your choice.......that isn't predestination is it........???
Predestination is not intervention by God, rather predestination is proclaiming by God. Proclaiming who will be saved, and who won't be saved........seems to me that intervention suggests that we make a choice, and God says, hey, wait, that isn't going to be good for you, you best reconsider your choice.......that isn't predestination is it........???
Now what you are expressing is "foreknowing," NOT "predestination." There is a difference in my opinion.
See, predestination is that God determined from the beginning who would be saved, and who would be damned, even BEFORE they were born..........IF THIS is true, then of what need was there for Jesus to shed His life blood on Calvary's cross? Since God "predetermined" who would be saved, then they WOULD be saved regardless.........of anything.......
Foreknowing is not the same as predestination is it? I don't think so.
See, predestination is that God determined from the beginning who would be saved, and who would be damned, even BEFORE they were born..........IF THIS is true, then of what need was there for Jesus to shed His life blood on Calvary's cross? Since God "predetermined" who would be saved, then they WOULD be saved regardless.........of anything.......
Foreknowing is not the same as predestination is it? I don't think so.
J
In one verse: Romans 8:7
Romans 8:7
English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
I was using intervention in distinction to predestination and regeneration. If God steps in to a situation, say, these two:
Genesis 20:6
English Standard Version (ESV)
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.
1 Samuel 25:26
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 Now then, my lord, as the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, because the Lord has restrained you from bloodguilt and from saving with your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek to do evil to my lord be as Nabal.
God has "violated" a human will. The case in Genesis 20 is God speaking to Abimelech.
A lil more on that:
From there Abraham journeyed toward the territory of the Negeb and lived between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, “Lord, will you kill an innocent people? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
In this case Abimelech is not able to act in terms of libertarian free will, as God has intervened. Abimilech is not 100% a free agent. Therefor it cannot be meaningfully free will. This is where either the use of the term free will is misapplied by those who don't understand it's usage, or, they know what it means but don't want to believe it in it's entirety because of it's conflictions with scripture.
Romans 8:7
English Standard Version (ESV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
I was using intervention in distinction to predestination and regeneration. If God steps in to a situation, say, these two:
Genesis 20:6
English Standard Version (ESV)
6 Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.
1 Samuel 25:26
English Standard Version (ESV)
26 Now then, my lord, as the Lord lives, and as your soul lives, because the Lord has restrained you from bloodguilt and from saving with your own hand, now then let your enemies and those who seek to do evil to my lord be as Nabal.
God has "violated" a human will. The case in Genesis 20 is God speaking to Abimelech.
A lil more on that:
From there Abraham journeyed toward the territory of the Negeb and lived between Kadesh and Shur; and he sojourned in Gerar. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And Abraham said of Sarah his wife, “She is my sister.” And Abimelech king of Gerar sent and took Sarah. [SUP]3 [/SUP]But God came to Abimelech in a dream by night and said to him, “Behold, you are a dead man because of the woman whom you have taken, for she is a man's wife.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now Abimelech had not approached her. So he said, “Lord, will you kill an innocent people? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Did he not himself say to me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ In the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands I have done this.” [SUP]6 [/SUP]Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Now then, return the man's wife, for he is a prophet, so that he will pray for you, and you shall live. But if you do not return her, know that you shall surely die, you and all who are yours.”
In this case Abimelech is not able to act in terms of libertarian free will, as God has intervened. Abimilech is not 100% a free agent. Therefor it cannot be meaningfully free will. This is where either the use of the term free will is misapplied by those who don't understand it's usage, or, they know what it means but don't want to believe it in it's entirety because of it's conflictions with scripture.
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J
Perseverence of the Saints:
... those who are truly saved will persevere to the end and cannot lose their salvation. It doesn't mean that a person who is truly saved will never lose faith or backslide at any time. But that they will ultimately persevere in faith (inspite of failures) such as not to lose their salvation (source)
It's ashame some believe that God created some of his pots to be tortured in a hellfire after they die from earth. God did no such thing. He created none of us to be tortued in a hellfire. That was not his plan from the start. Sin is actually a requirement needed for our salvation. That's why it exist in the first place and that's why man was created subject to vanity. We have to know both good and evil therefore we must experience it. Man can't even appreciate Good without knowing bad.
J
Foreknowing as it is typically taught by free will types, and as it is in scripture are a little bit different. It is directly related to predestination, but it is not predestination itself.
Yes, Ephesians 1.
... because there are guilty sinners in need of reconcilation before a holy and righteous God? I thought we agreed that humans are bad, and need atonement?
Well, not of "anything" in a completely universal way.
For example, I often am asked the question: "So what if I'm predestined to be saved, but I don't want to be saved?"
There are two answers to this. Most directly the answer is, "You have not been regenerated, given a new heart by God." This will occur on God's time. God will work in the persons heart and give them a new one.(Ezekiel 36:26)
The other answer to that particular question is that there is a misunderstanding of how predestination and regeneration work. In regeneration God changes the persons heart, and you will want to be saved because of his working in your heart, and you will indeed be saved.
It's not identical, but the biblical term foreknow is not what it is typically made out to be. Typically a secular philosophy is applied to the term foreknow, and not a biblical use of the term.
Yes, Ephesians 1.
... because there are guilty sinners in need of reconcilation before a holy and righteous God? I thought we agreed that humans are bad, and need atonement?
Well, not of "anything" in a completely universal way.
For example, I often am asked the question: "So what if I'm predestined to be saved, but I don't want to be saved?"
There are two answers to this. Most directly the answer is, "You have not been regenerated, given a new heart by God." This will occur on God's time. God will work in the persons heart and give them a new one.(Ezekiel 36:26)
The other answer to that particular question is that there is a misunderstanding of how predestination and regeneration work. In regeneration God changes the persons heart, and you will want to be saved because of his working in your heart, and you will indeed be saved.
It's not identical, but the biblical term foreknow is not what it is typically made out to be. Typically a secular philosophy is applied to the term foreknow, and not a biblical use of the term.
God seals the soul that is trusting Jesus with His Holy Spirit until the day of redemption. In our walk with the Lord until that day we have the Holy Spirit to help us. If we falter we are still saved we only need to pick ourselves up and begin walking the path the Lord has set before us. I think the Lord allows us to scrape our knees that we remain humble in our service to Him.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
J
[h=3]Proverbs 16:4
English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
You'll have to clarify on that one.
Man was created upright, and became subject to vanity through his own actions. Did God sovereignly determine this would happen? Yes, but he is not responsible for it as you suggest. It is not his fault.
I've heard this one before: "Hath God said?"
Genesis 3
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]The Lord has made everything for its purpose,
even the wicked for the day of trouble.
You'll have to clarify on that one.
Man was created upright, and became subject to vanity through his own actions. Did God sovereignly determine this would happen? Yes, but he is not responsible for it as you suggest. It is not his fault.
I've heard this one before: "Hath God said?"
Genesis 3
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
Mans knowledge of good and evil requires him to choose. His first choice is sin. God in His mercy offers man a second choice. If man loves sin he will reject the offer to change his selection. If he regrets his choice he has an opportunity to change. John 3:18-22 or there about.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
For the cause of Christ
Roger
God has chosen to save us through His Son, the only elect one from the foundation of the world. God predestined that some people would put their trust in God, it is not like that God individually hand picked all of His sheep, although He foreknew who we are. It is God's corporate Church who was predestined, the institution not the individual. Go back and reread your proof texts and ask yourself who is Jesus or Paul talking to/about? Is the special mission of the gospel's beings why Jesus chose the disciples or did Jesus chose them cause He knew the condition of their heart, thus enlisted them for service? Is Paul speaking about the individual or the corporate church body?
J
Man makes choices, but these choices are certainly not free of influence. All men are slaves to their nature. Before a man is made regenerate by God, it is the sinful nature, the flesh that rules of the man. Man loves his sin, and hates God. Once God has regenerated a man, and given him a new heart, that man is now ruled by the spirit. That does not mean the sinful nature is non-existant. It seeks to rule over the man, but the spirit will in the end have the greater control.
See Romans 6 through 8.
Romans 6
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We know that our old self[SUP][a][/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For one who has died has been set free[SUP][b][/SUP] from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. [SUP]9 [/SUP]We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
[h=3]Slaves to Righteousness[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[SUP][c][/SUP] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Man will continueing serving his master, the devil, until he is "rescued" per se by God.
See Romans 6 through 8.
Romans 6
6 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [SUP]2 [/SUP]By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [SUP]3 [/SUP]Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [SUP]4 [/SUP]We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. [SUP]6 [/SUP]We know that our old self[SUP][a][/SUP] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For one who has died has been set free[SUP][b][/SUP] from sin. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. [SUP]9 [/SUP]We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.
[h=3]Slaves to Righteousness[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! [SUP]16 [/SUP]Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves,[SUP][c][/SUP] you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? [SUP]17 [/SUP]But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. [SUP]21 [/SUP]But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. [SUP]23 [/SUP]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Man will continueing serving his master, the devil, until he is "rescued" per se by God.
1John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
She committed all 3.
seeing the tree was good for food...lust of the flesh
Pleasant to her eyes ....lust of the eyes
she liked the thought of being wise....pride of life.
She committed all 3.
seeing the tree was good for food...lust of the flesh
Pleasant to her eyes ....lust of the eyes
she liked the thought of being wise....pride of life.