Gods will vs mans free will

[Rufus]

When the gospel of Jesus Christ’s Blood and Body is presented, the hearer has freewill to choose to receive salvation or reject it.

Did the ancient Israelites in Egypt have "freewill" to walk away from their bondage to Pharaoh?

Perhaps they did not, but they did exercise their free will when they refused to heed Joshua and Caleb and listened to the other ten spies sent into the promised land. When they had a golden calf made and worshiped it. When they refused to look at the serpent that Moses put upon his staff, or when they tried to gather more than a days worth of manna, or when they stuffed themselves with quail meat; even as they beheld the Lord's miracles wrought through Moses.
Paul tells us of how Pharaoh's heart was hardened by the Lord and Paul responds to this very question, by showing how the Lord bare with much long suffering regarding Pharaoh's sins, withholding judgement in order to show his power and declare his name to the world's nations of that time. (See Rom 9: 17-23)

Yup their "free" will that was just as enslaved to their sin nature, as ours were, always made the bad choices. That's why God delivered the Israelites out Egypt and the clutches of Pharaoh in spite of their hateful, rebellious attitude toward Him and Moses. The Israelites did not go willingly!

Ps 106:7-8
7 When our fathers were in Egypt,
they gave no thought to your miracles;
they did not remember your many kindnesses,
and they rebelled by the sea, the Red Sea.
8 Yet he saved them for his name's sake,
to make his mighty power known.
NIV

So, it certainly doesn't appear that God redeemed Abraham's descendants due to the awesome power of their "free, sovereign" will. God acted unilaterally. It was only AFTER God had parted the sea, they crossed over safely and the sea swallowed up the Egyptian army did they finally come to their senses and believe his promises (v.12). The crossing over on dry land between the two huge walls of water was a type of baptism, according to Paul (1Cor 10:2).

 

[Rufus]

You have got to be kidding. Not only did they have the free will to walk away, they had the free will to want to go back. Yes, God took it upon Himself to make sure that they couldn't. But that hardly affects the fact of their free will.

Free will reigns supreme in God's creation order. It is sacrosanct.

Satan's lie is that is free will does not exist, therefore true life does not exist. Therefore God is a cosmic tyrant and evil. Therefore God cannot and does not judge sin. Therefore there is no resurrection. Therefore the Gods free will offer of salvation is bogus, God is peddling a fraud and God is a deceiver.

This is by no means an exhaustive list of Satan's lies that he is "merchandising".

I hope you see where this is going as it relates to your horrifically malevolent theories.

You just freely contradicted yourself. Since God acted contrary to the Israelites' wicked desires, then how did they have free will? God overrode what they wanted -- which was to remain in Egypt! He truly did rescue them since they were powerless to make the right choices. Why would God need to rescue a resourceful people who lacked nothing spiritually?

 

[cv5]

You just freely contradicted yourself. Since God acted contrary to the Israelites' wicked desires, then how did they have free will? God overrode what they wanted -- which was to remain in Egypt! He truly did rescue them since they were powerless to make the right choices. Why would God need to rescue a resourceful people who lacked nothing spiritually?

Of course they had a free will to return to Egypt. If they did not, God would not as a consequence need to intervene to make it physically impossible.

What's more, God did not do a mind-wipe and simply lobotomize them into slavishly obedience. Though He certainly could. That goes for you and me too.

 

[Rufus]

UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.

FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.

Case closed.

Yes, A&E had "free will" precisely because they were FREE FROM the power and bondage of sin. To be truly free one must be free from all evil influences in order to freely practice righteousness. In other words, one must be like God! But none of us are spiritually! God is truly free (as I just described), whereas we are not.

 

[cv5]

Yes, A&E had "free will" precisely because they were FREE FROM the power and bondage of sin. To be truly free one must be free from all evil influences in order to freely practice righteousness. In other words, one must be like God! But none of us are spiritually! God is truly free (as I just described), whereas we are not.

You obviously failed to comprehend my post. And your post makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Rufus]

Of course they had a free will to return to Egypt. If they did not, God would not as a consequence need to intervene to make it physically impossible.

What's more, God did not do a mind-wipe and simply lobotomize them into slavishly obedience. Though He certainly could. That goes for you and me too.

You're intentionally missing the point! Here it is one more time: The Israelites did not want to leave Egypt after Moses arrived on the scene. BUT...in SPITE of their hardened hearts, their stubbornness, their reluctance, their reticence, unbelief, etc. God RESCUED them from Pharaoh. (If he had not done so, they might still be in Egypt today.) Therefore, the Exodus narrative, which is a type of spiritual redemption, flatly contradicts non-Reformed theology that teaches the man's "free" will is the final determining factor in man's salvation. If the Israelites could have freely chosen to walk out of Egypt on their own, then why would God have to get involved in their deliverance? And why would he frame his redemption effort as a "rescue" mission (Ex 3:8)? Isn't it the helpless or powerless who are need in rescuing?

 

[cv5]

You just freely contradicted yourself. Since God acted contrary to the Israelites' wicked desires, then how did they have free will? God overrode what they wanted -- which was to remain in Egypt! He truly did rescue them since they were powerless to make the right choices. Why would God need to rescue a resourceful people who lacked nothing spiritually?

And another thing: there were THOUSANDS of Israelites who UNDOUBTEDLY knew of Gods promises to Abraham Issac and Jabob. They also surely had written records of same. They also knew that the time was at hand ie fouth generation aka 400 years.

You are assuming that they were all illiterate stupid knuckle dragging troglodytes that were also lobotomized by God Himself and were not only oblivious but utterly incapable of rational thought and action.

 

[cv5]

You're intentionally missing the point! Here it is one more time: The Israelites did not want to leave Egypt after Moses arrived on the scene. BUT...in SPITE of their hardened hearts, their stubbornness, their reluctance, their reticence, unbelief, etc. God RESCUED them from Pharaoh. (If he had not done so, they might still be in Egypt today.) Therefore, the Exodus narrative, which is a type of spiritual redemption, flatly contradicts non-Reformed theology that teaches the man's "free" will is the final determining factor in man's salvation. If the Israelites could have freely chosen to walk out of Egypt on their own, then why would God have to get involved in their deliverance? And why would he frame his redemption effort as a "rescue" mission (Ex 3:8)? Isn't it the helpless or powerless who are need in rescuing?

Rubbish. In fact the nation entered into the marriage covenant on Pentecost at Sinai OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

What did you think? God is evil and was doing a shotgun wedding type deal?

 

[Rufus]

You obviously failed to comprehend my post. And your post makes no sense whatsoever.

It's easy to understand. Freedom is a two-way street. True freedom means to be free FROM in order to be free TO. Jesus is the perfect example of what true freedom looks like. Because he was free FROM the power of sin, the power of the devil and from fallen world, he was free TO obey his Father perfectly at all times in all things.

But mankind is not free. As Paul said, Jews and Gentiles are all under the power of sin (Rom 3:9).

If man is so free as you seem to believe, then why would the Son need to set his Father's elect free? And FROM what did he set them free?

 

[cv5]

If the Israelites could have freely chosen to walk out of Egypt on their own

Wrong. They obviously could NOT walk out of Egypt on their own. In fact God HIMSELF had to practically DESTROY the nation to induce Pharaoh to let them go.

And even then, Pharaoh chased them down and tried to exterminate them all.

 

[Rufus]

And another thing: there were THOUSANDS of Israelites who UNDOUBTEDLY knew of Gods promises to Abraham Issac and Jabob. They also surely had written records of same. They also knew that the time was at hand ie fouth generation aka 400 years.

You are assuming that they were all illiterate stupid knuckle dragging troglodytes that were also lobotomized by God Himself and were not only oblivious but utterly incapable of rational thought and action.

That's your unsubstantiated pipe dream. That is certainly not the way Joshua characterized the Israelites in Egypt to wit:

Josh 24:2, 14
2 Joshua said to all the people, "This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: 'Long ago your forefathers, including Terah the father of Abraham and Nahor, lived beyond the River and worshiped other gods...14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD.
NIV

Nor is it the way the Psalmist portrayed the ancient Hebrews in Egypt to wit:

Ps 106:6-7
6 We have sinned, even as our fathers did;
we have done wrong and acted wickedly.
7 When our fathers were in Egypt,
they gave no thought to your miracles;
they did not remember your many kindnesses,
and they rebelled by the sea, the Red Sea.
NIV

Anymore brilliant speculations?

 

[Rufus]

Wrong. They obviously could NOT walk out of Egypt on their own. In fact God HIMSELF had to practically DESTROY the nation to induce Pharaoh to let them go.

And even then, Pharaoh chased them down and tried to exterminate them all.

Thank you. You have affirmed my point. They could NOT just choose to get up and walk out of Egypt. They were powerless. They were helpless. Therefore, God needed to RESCUE them! Well...here's a little newsflash for you: Since the Exodus is a type of spiritual redemption, then it stands to reason that the spiritually dead are just as helpless and powerless as the Israelites were in Egypt. And the NT confirms this truth!

 

[Rufus]

Rubbish. In fact the nation entered into the marriage covenant on Pentecost at Sinai OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL.

What did you think? God is evil and was doing a shotgun wedding type deal?

Whoa...We're talking about the Exodus out of Egypt here. You're switching topics here because you can't answer my questions. The Israelites were powerless to leave Egypt on their own. And spiritually dead people today are powerless to choose to be saved -- to choose to override their sin nature, their love for the world, their love for pleasures, their love for money, their love for their darkness, their hatred for God and for His Son, etc. Sinners can no more change their nature than the Ethiopian can change the color of his skin.

 

[Magenta]

Amen.

Jesus criticized those who followed Him only for what they could get.

 

[Jimbone]

It wasn’t about being rescued, it was about making a choice… choosing Jesus Christ as Savior Lord and King.

Unless you want to say “saved” is the same as “rescued.” I just know being saved or rescued doesn’t happen unless I choose to receive it.

I understand what you're saying and I really want to make sure you understand I'm not disagreeing with you here or trying to correct you. I just want to share with my view on the choice you're talking about here, who get's the credit for it, and how much power is truly in this choice in the big picture.

I do understand what you mean and I do not disagree that we do make choices and the Bible tells us very clearly that we are to choose who we will serve, and we are free to make whatever choice we want to. However the way you worded it here makes it almost sound as if you're saying it is our choice that saves us and not God. Do you really think God is subservient to mans choice? I understand why it does seem that way on the surface, I used to think the same way when I was first saved and this train of thought led me straight to the "we can lose salvation" falsehood. I couldn't reconcile how on earth I start with free will and then choose Jesus and be born again and then be made a slave and not be able to CHOOSE to be unborn again if I desired sometime in the future. I'd always qualify my belief in this with "I could never walk away from Him, and don't see how anyone else could either, but I do believe I could be unsaved if I wanted to".

I was on the same page, "I choose" to be saved. I lifted my choice and free will way too high and thought of Gods power way to low. Then I got to thinking about how I was saved and realized that I didn't choose a dang thing. As a matter of fact when I did make the choice the first time I was nothing but a false convert that really liked the "idea" of Jesus, but lived in the real world with bills to pay. I was not saved when I made "the choice".

Then I had a trial hit that flipped my world upside-down and left me broken on the outside to match my shattered inside. I got low. I thought about suicide uncontrollably every 5 minutes for 2 solid years. I wanted to die so bad I could barely stand it, and the only thing that kept me from acting on these feelings were my 2 sons. I just couldn't leave them growing up with "my dad killed himself" for the rest of their lives.

One day all of this stuff came to the surface when I was at home alone. At this point I didn't believe God was real anymore, it's not that I was mad at Him or hated Him, but I was in a bad way and He didn't help, I thought I was a Christian, but God wasn't helping and I wasn't going to pretend anymore. So when I had reached the end of my power and saw "me" for the pathetic and hopeless waste that I was I hit my knees. I didn't cry out "Jesus" or "God I choose You!!". Nope UI hit my knees saying "I can't do this anymore" and woke up the next day all NEW.

 

[Magenta]

Huh. Jesus says the words of Isaiah were fulfilled because people could NOT choose to believe.
They were unable to. I wonder where their so-called "free will" was then. See John 12:37 & on...

 

[Jimbone]

It wasn’t about being rescued, it was about making a choice… choosing Jesus Christ as Savior Lord and King.

Unless you want to say “saved” is the same as “rescued.” I just know being saved or rescued doesn’t happen unless I choose to receive it.

Sorry I hit "post" too early on that first reply and had a little more to add.

It wasn't until lunch the next day that I even realized what happen, and it was at lunch that it hit me. "I haven't thought about killing myself all day!!!" Then and there I knew 2 things.
1. Whatever this was, it was from God.
2. Jesus Crist is His Son.

So in my case when I thought I was making "the choice" I wasn't saved and thought God was fake when trials hit, yet when I was saved I had no idea He was granting me repentance when it was taking place FOR REAL. So while I am not at all saying that you are wrong and I understand that for many it may work just like it did for you, but we have to be careful of exactly how big a role that choice actually plays in the big picture of salvation, and who does the credit for that choice truly belong to? That's it, just wanted to share my thoughts on that with you. Hope you have a great day.

 

[Magenta]

So in my case when I thought I was making "the choice" I wasn't saved and thought God was fake when trials hit, yet when I was saved I had no idea He was granting me repentance when it was taking place FOR REAL. So while I am not at all saying that you are wrong and I understand that for many it may work just like it did for you, but we have to be careful of exactly how big a role that choice actually plays in the big picture of salvation, and who does the credit for that choice truly belong to? That's it, just wanted to share my thoughts on that with you. Hope you have a great day.

Many simply refuse to address Christ making us alive in Him and having our hearts circumcised.
Or they will again assert that their choice made them alive and got their hearts circumcised.
iow, they believe their wicked evil hearts can choose to love God. Really it boils down to that.
While being hostile in their minds toward God, lovers of evil, and a slave of sin.
Somehow that all makes perfect sense in their theology...

 

[cv5]

flatly contradicts non-Reformed theology

I am THRILLED to report that I am FREE from Egypt aka Reformed theology, FREE from bondage aka Reformed theology, FREE from slavery aka Reformed theology.

And believe me when I say that I am NOT going back.

 

[cv5]

Thank you. You have affirmed my point. They could NOT just choose to get up and walk out of Egypt. They were powerless.

And when the opportunity arose......they DID walk away.

Are you saying that EVERY ISRAELITE in Egypt DID NOT want to be free of slavery? And God did a FORCED MARCH out of there while they were kicking and screaming all the way? And every step they took was IN PROTEST and against their FREE WILL?

Absolutely ridiculous.