Gods will vs mans free will
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You have just confirmed that you did not read or understand my earlier post:
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-will-vs-mans-free-will.216406/post-5375889
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Outline of Biblical Usage
It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made.
And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.
2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
https://christianchat.com/threads/gods-will-vs-mans-free-will.216406/post-5375889
1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth G1209 not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Outline of Biblical Usage
- to take with the hand
- to take hold of, take up
- to take up, receive
- used of a place receiving one
- to receive or grant access to, a visitor, not to refuse intercourse or friendship
- to receive hospitality
- to receive into one's family to bring up or educate
- of the thing offered in speaking, teaching, instructing
- to receive favourably, give ear to, embrace, make one's own, approve, not to reject
- to receive. i.e. to take upon one's self, sustain, bear, endure
- to receive, get
- to learn
It is obvious that this "natural man" REFUSES to "take up", "take hold of" "receive" "learn"
of HIS OWN FREE WILL. A conscious choice that has been made.
And here is the OT reference. One that NOBODY seems to understand or even care to know.
2Ki 6:5
But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.
2Ki 6:6
And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast it in thither; and the iron did swim.
2Ki 6:7
Therefore said he (the Man of God), Take it up to thee. And he put out his hand, and took it.
There is FIRSTLY the "COME" (this offer a result of the COMPLETED WORK OF JESUS GOD).
And then there are the WILL's and the WILL NOT's.
Thats how it works buddy. Simple as that.
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Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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Mat 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:5
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
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Jhn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Jhn 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
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Case closed.
And then there are the WILL's and the WILL NOT's.
Thats how it works buddy. Simple as that.
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Rev 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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Mat 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:5
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.
=======================================================================================
Jhn 5:40 - And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
Luk 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
Jhn 5:43
I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
=========================================================================================
Case closed.
Those who are born of the Spirit are the only people that can make good choices concerning spiritual things, although they often do not because of their fleshly nature. The natural man, who has not been born of the Spirit, makes bad choices. Even when he appears to make good choices, they are for Allterior purposes to deceive others.
Your ironies statements will not harmonize with other scriptures.
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Prove it.
We have two WILLING WILLS here. Right?
Mar 1:40
And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mar 1:41
And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
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And then here are some UNWILLING WILLS.
Mat 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
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So who are the beneficiaries of Jesus God's COMING?
The religious leaders who hated Him and wanted Him dead?
The citizens of Chorazin and Bethsaida who ignored him?
The truth is that Hillary Clinton, and the whole world knows of the FACT of Jesus COMING. Everybody knows. Everybody.
And some WILLINGLY come to Him, and some WILLINGLY don't come. For various reasons.
Is Hillary Clinton therefore responsible for her own sin of denying the salvation made available by Son of Man? Yes. Yes she is.
We have two WILLING WILLS here. Right?
Mar 1:40
And there came a leper to him, beseeching him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mar 1:41
And Jesus, moved with compassion, put forth his hand, and touched him, and saith unto him, I will; be thou clean.
================================================================================================
And then here are some UNWILLING WILLS.
Mat 11:21
Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
======================================================================================
So who are the beneficiaries of Jesus God's COMING?
The religious leaders who hated Him and wanted Him dead?
The citizens of Chorazin and Bethsaida who ignored him?
The truth is that Hillary Clinton, and the whole world knows of the FACT of Jesus COMING. Everybody knows. Everybody.
And some WILLINGLY come to Him, and some WILLINGLY don't come. For various reasons.
Is Hillary Clinton therefore responsible for her own sin of denying the salvation made available by Son of Man? Yes. Yes she is.
Evidently you are wrong.
To wit:
UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.
FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.
To wit:
UNFALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make bad/wrong decisions.
Decisions that led to their "death" aka separation from God.
FALLEN Adam and Eve had the free will to make good/right decisions.
Decisions that led to "life" aka "salvation" aka "reconciliation" aka "renewed fellowship" with God.
How is he wrong? The main difference I see between you two when reading your conversation is that you lift up "us", "our choice", "the decision we make" WAY too high to the point it starts to seem like what we "have to do" in order to be saved. It's the same problem those who say we can lose our salvation have when they put too much stock in "the power of our choice".
If what you're trying to sell here is the truth then it is our choice that saves us and not God. You think God made the way, but it was YOU that is responsible for actually jumping on board. YOU have a reason to boast. I honestly see this as a difference in perspective, but from where you're looking at it, it seems God's power is being blocked by something in the way, namely your "choice".
If what you're trying to sell here is the truth then it is our choice that saves us and not God. You think God made the way, but it was YOU that is responsible for actually jumping on board. YOU have a reason to boast. I honestly see this as a difference in perspective, but from where you're looking at it, it seems God's power is being blocked by something in the way, namely your "choice".
Here's an unsaved (not born of the Spirit) man making a good choice concerning spiritual things:
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Acts 16:29-30 (KJV)
Here's another unsaved man making a good choice:
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke 18:13 (KJV)
Here's an unsaved (not born of the Spirit) woman making a good choice concerning spiritual things:
The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? John 4:28-29 (KJV)
None of these unsaved people were making any attempt to deceive others. They were in earnest.
Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? Acts 16:29-30 (KJV)
Here's another unsaved man making a good choice:
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. Luke 18:13 (KJV)
Here's an unsaved (not born of the Spirit) woman making a good choice concerning spiritual things:
The woman then left her waterpot, and went her way into the city, and saith to the men,
29 Come, see a man, which told me all things that ever I did: is not this the Christ? John 4:28-29 (KJV)
None of these unsaved people were making any attempt to deceive others. They were in earnest.
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Agree. They were thirsty and were seeking to "come to the light".
Those who CHOOSE to do evil do not repent. Or shall I say that those who do not repent CHOOSE to do evil.
Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe G4100 on his name:
Jhn 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed G4100 on him.
Jhn 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed G4100 in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth g4238 evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Verb - Present Active Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine
Those who CHOOSE to do evil do not repent. Or shall I say that those who do not repent CHOOSE to do evil.
Jhn 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe G4100 on his name:
Jhn 2:11
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed G4100 on him.
Jhn 2:23
Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed G4100 in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
Jhn 3:20
For every one that doeth g4238 evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Verb - Present Active Participle - Nominative Singular Masculine
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Joshau was addressing God's covenant people -- the people to whom the Law was given. Rahab was not Jewish.
And when Joshua made that prediction, it would be absurd to press it to extreme limits. What he was telling God's covenant people that as a corporate entitity -- as a NATION they would be apostates! And both kingdoms were. Exceptions don't make the rule. History bears the truthfulness of Joshua's prophecy.
And when Joshua made that prediction, it would be absurd to press it to extreme limits. What he was telling God's covenant people that as a corporate entitity -- as a NATION they would be apostates! And both kingdoms were. Exceptions don't make the rule. History bears the truthfulness of Joshua's prophecy.
EDIT:
All men have seen the manifestation of Christ. All men have the testimony of His miracles. Right in their lap, right on their phones.
Everyone everywhere all the time.
Some believe on His Name, some refuse to believe and CONTINUE do evil.
And they that refuse to repent and believe on His Name and do evil continue to FOLLOW their father THE EVIL ONE.
Right into the lake of fire.
Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye *** will*** do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
All men have seen the manifestation of Christ. All men have the testimony of His miracles. Right in their lap, right on their phones.
Everyone everywhere all the time.
Some believe on His Name, some refuse to believe and CONTINUE do evil.
And they that refuse to repent and believe on His Name and do evil continue to FOLLOW their father THE EVIL ONE.
Right into the lake of fire.
Jhn 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye *** will*** do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
"as a NATION they would be apostates!"
That is utterly false. More like insane. Crazy talk. What in the world is wrong with you?
There were UNTOLD THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of truly believing and faithful Israelites. All through the ages. There was ALWAYS a faithful remnant.
Do you want me to make a list?
You know: Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, David, Davids mighty men, Zacharias, the Mary's plural, John the Baptist.
Any more of that nonsense and you are going on ignore.
That is utterly false. More like insane. Crazy talk. What in the world is wrong with you?
There were UNTOLD THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of truly believing and faithful Israelites. All through the ages. There was ALWAYS a faithful remnant.
Do you want me to make a list?
You know: Moses, Joshua, Caleb, Elijah, Elisha, Samuel, David, Davids mighty men, Zacharias, the Mary's plural, John the Baptist.
Any more of that nonsense and you are going on ignore.