Gods will vs mans free will

sawdust · 2024-09-25T18:22:44-0400

How does one make a Freewill offering if one is not free to do so of their own will?

Leviticus 1:3
‘If his offering is a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish; he shall offer it of his own free will at the door of the tabernacle of meeting before the Lord.
Leviticus 19:5
‘And if you offer a sacrifice of a peace offering to the Lord, you shall offer it of your own free will.
Leviticus 22:19
you shall offer of your own free will a male without blemish from the cattle, from the sheep, or from the goats.
Leviticus 22:29
And when you offer a sacrifice of thanksgiving to the Lord, offer it of your own free will.

You most probably do not know it's there because most are referenced in Leviticus, a book that tends to get overlooked.

CS1 · 2024-09-25T18:24:15-0400

The idea that God will vs man's free will is an oxymoron.
The will of God is supreme, yet it is His Love, Mercy, Patience, and Grace extended to falling man that provides time for them to see there is no free will outside of God's Liberation. YOu are a dead man walking and a slave to sin.

The main reason people reject God is not a lack of evidence for God. The number one reason is that they do not want someone telling them what they can or cannot do.

homwardbound · 2024-09-26T08:03:15-0400

Webers.Home said:

Thank you for the deep insight I get, got from through you Webers home
This is amazing grace is it not?
Seeing the tricks of that wreskly rabbit, evil
Evil uses 1 John 1:8 to deceive people, has me, in justifying sin in me, still going on, how so?
I can still sin, since I am forgiven? Well then what to do with that, I just saw another person, I like and lust set in my mind (put there by evil). I want that, one thinks? So what do I, you, or anyone else do with that? If ponder over it long enough, even in the "I" can't do that, what takes place? yes Romans 7.
That is the trap from evil that got the Corinthians. The ones Paul wrote to them about taking this for granted and promoting sin. harming the others there in that Church gathering then. What?
Yes, ate up all the food there before the rest of the others got there in need to eat, no food left. Then drank up all the wine and got drunk and had sex with whoever they wanted to have sex with, even if others said No! Then there were the women from the Brothel there in Corinth, that came in with shaven heads then and stood at the pulpit also promoting sin, using we are forgiven to get away with it, That is why Paul spoke about women to not preach. The history of what was going on there and what Paul wrote and why has gotten lost in self-righteousness of people, like in Luke 18:9-14 where two men went into the temple and once said they were better than others praising God over them doing it right and others not doing things right, as the other was in repentance and need of God for them to change them and be humble in being taught to not harm others ever again on purpose ever again. Asking first for the forgiveness that was not yet in place as is now in place, then reconciliation came to us all to change willingly with God in the lead, not anyone else, even the self

Rufus · 2024-09-26T11:36:24-0400

sawdust said:

And therein is the great paradox to man's will. As a moral agent, we can voluntarily (freely) make choices. On the other hand, because our hearts (the seat of all our faculties) are full of evil and corruptness our choices are inherently biased toward sin and evil; therefore in this sense the unregenerate man's will is in bondage to the world, the flesh, the devil and and even the Law since the law arouses sinful passions. This is why Christ had to come to set the captives free!

Magenta · 2024-09-26T11:53:09-0400

CS1 said:

The idea that God will vs man's free will is an oxymoron.
The will of God is supreme, yet it is His Love, Mercy, Patience, and Grace extended to falling man that provides time
for them to see there is no free will outside of God's Liberation. YOu are a dead man walking and a slave to sin.

The main reason people reject God is not a lack of evidence for God. The number one
reason is that they do not want someone telling them what they can or cannot do.

They have sat themselves on the throne... just as Adam did.

jacko · 2024-09-26T12:32:46-0400

Rufus said:

And therein is the great paradox to man's will. As a moral agent, we can voluntarily (freely) make choices. On the other hand, because our hearts (the seat of all our faculties) are full of evil and corruptness our choices are inherently biased toward sin and evil; therefore in this sense the unregenerate man's will is in bondage to the world, the flesh, the devil and and even the Law since the law arouses sinful passions. This is why Christ had to come to set the captives free!

yet you don't ask God which color socks to wear. You do have a choice in life.

Rufus · 2024-09-26T13:01:37-0400

jacko said:

What socks to wear is a moral-spiritual choice?

Magenta · 2024-09-26T13:15:32-0400

Rufus said:

People conflate the ability to make choices with having free will all the time... unfortunately it's a common error... And yeah the color of socks we choose to wear really shouldn't have anything to do with a theological discussion. PS - I prefer not to wear socks LOL. My will is not constrained in that matter.

Bruce_Leiter · 2024-09-26T13:16:59-0400

jacko said:

I'm putting you on my prayer list for God's guidance. I'm uncomfortable with the term "free will." Where in the Bible did you get that phrase? I don't find it there.

I suggest that you start with the Bible's teachings instead of your own thinking. For example, the Bible says for us to pray all the time (1 Thessalonians 5:17) as well as rejoicing (verse 16) and being thankful (verse 17) all the time. These are three of our goals as Christians, in spite of what motivational speakers have said. The only way we can make true progress in the Christian life is in the power of Jesus' resurrection (see Colossians 3:1 and the following chapter).

Read and study Ephesians 2:1-10, where Paul says that we are born dead to God (verses 1-3), that he makes us alive only by grace through his free gift of grace (verses 4-9), and then enables us to do resulting good works (verse 10)--all to his credit, not ours.

Unbiblical fatalism would say that we don't need to make efforts to get a job; it'll come to us. Unbiblical self-reliance would say that it's all up to us. We need to pray constantly, as, at the same time, we seek God's blessing on our job searches, for example.

Bruce_Leiter · 2024-09-26T13:36:59-0400

John146 said:

I have to say that the KJV, which is usually a good translation, is wrong in saying that God "repented," according to the Bible's own meaning of that word. Repentance means that sin is involved. The modern translations are more accurate in using the word "relent,"
that is, changed his mind. I believe that it really means "changed from his mercy on his fallen humans to his justice for their sin." God does not change his mind in a human sense, but he does use his divine qualities in different ways at different ways.

Bruce_Leiter · 2024-09-26T13:37:34-0400

PaulThomson said:

Where?

Magenta · 2024-09-26T13:40:30-0400

Bruce_Leiter said:

That's because it (free will) is not something that is taught in the Bible for the natural man. You are free to "borrow" my panel
from this post (<= link) if you like, although I have found another verse to add to it (Romans 7:18) so will be updating it later. .

There truly are so many verses speaking against the free will of man that it really is perplexing that people promote it.

So many verses, in fact, that I doubt I could fit them all on one panel unless I make the font tiny LOL

John146 · 2024-09-26T14:02:26-0400

Bruce_Leiter said:

Nope, repentance does not have to involve sin. Repentance is a change of direction, a change of mind. Repentance is needed for salvation, but the word itself is not always connected with salvation.

John146 · 2024-09-26T14:05:46-0400

Bruce_Leiter said:

Here‘s another good example. God deciding not to do something that he said he would do. Repentance, change of direction.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Rufus · 2024-09-26T15:06:30-0400

Bruce_Leiter said:

And herein is the wisdom of consulting multiple translations. Strong's 5162 for the Heb "nacham" has some interesting nuances to it. It can mean to "sigh, i.e. breathe strongly"; by implication "to be sorry" either in a favorable or unfavorably "to avenge (oneself)". The NIV renders the verse: "The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth and his heart was filled with pain".

The Darby (a very literal translation) renders the passage the way the KJV does.

The ESV: "And the Lord was sorry that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him to his heart".

The NASB reads as the ESV above.

The YLT (another literal translation) pretty much reads as the KJV and Darby.

The AMP renders the verse: "And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and he was grieved in his heart."

The RSV renders the verse as the ESV and NASB do.

The TLB (paraphrase) reads: "he was sorry that he had made them. It broke his heart"

The NLT (a paraphrase) reads like the TLB above, etc.

I think the sense being conveyed here is one of regret (as the AMP states), because God clearly was unhappy with the human race, so this emotion is expressed in anthropomorphic terms.

"Relent" doesn't fit into the context since God destroyed virtually the entire human race.

jacko · 2024-09-26T15:18:56-0400

Rufus said:

You just made my point, not all decisions are moral spiritual, but everyday life decisions nonetheless.
How about where to go to college? How about what career to take? Where do we draw the line? Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could discern God's will perfectly? The reality is that it ISNT always clear, so we must take a leap of faith and hope it works out.

Now, where do we draw the line for God to get involved... I suspect this is different for each individual.
My savings are running dry, I need to work.. I'm looking at making deliveries on Uber... is that my choice or God's will for me. I was a senior vice president at an established investment firm, the good Lord has humbled me and that's OK.

jacko · 2024-09-26T15:27:46-0400

Two Boats and Helicopter Story
A storm descends on a small town, and the downpour soon turns into a flood. As the waters rise, the local preacher kneels in prayer on the church porch, surrounded by water. By and by, one of the townsfolk comes up the street in a canoe.
“Better get in, Preacher. The waters are rising fast.”

“No,” says the preacher. “I have faith in the Lord. He will save me.”

Still the waters rise. Now the preacher is up on the balcony, wringing his hands in supplication, when another guy zips up in a motorboat.

“Come on, Preacher. We need to get you out of here. The levee’s gonna break any minute.”

Once again, the preacher is unmoved. “I shall remain. The Lord will see me through.”

After a while the levee breaks, and the flood rushes over the church until only the steeple remains above water. The preacher is up there, clinging to the cross, when a helicopter descends out of the clouds, and a state trooper calls down to him through a megaphone.

“Grab the ladder, Preacher. This is your last chance.”

Once again, the preacher insists the Lord will deliver him.

And, predictably, he drowns.

A pious man, the preacher goes to heaven. After a while he gets an interview with God, and he asks the Almighty, “Lord, I had unwavering faith in you. Why didn’t you deliver me from that flood?”

God shakes his head. “What did you want from me? I sent you two boats and a helicopter.”

sawdust · 2024-09-26T17:37:00-0400

Rufus said:

That is true but only if you leave grace out of the picture. However, grace has never been out of the picture as the Lord makes His sun to shine and his rain to fall on the good and bad alike.

The heart is not inherently evil, indeed nothing in all creation is inherently evil, for if it was it would mean God created evil in His creation. He can no more do that than He can create something inherently good for only He is good inherently.

Good and evil are learned attributes. Our problem stems from the inherent corruption in our flesh, genetically formed and inherited from Adam which, means God cannot generate a human spirit, hence we are cut off from having any capacity to know God. (spiritually dead)

As the sinful nature in our flesh is against the Spirit of God, it works to deceive our minds along with the world system (which is based on Satan's way of thinking) as well as spiritual entities. So we have three things working against our mind (heart) so, is it any wonder the heart learns evil and is corrupted? If it were not for the grace of God at work from the moment each of us were born, we all would be doomed to being eternally lost and without hope and worst yet, never understanding why.

But grace does work which is why we are enabled to see the light and make our choice freely according to what we prefer, light or darkness. Those who prefer darkness shun the light but those who prefer the light are enabled to respond to God's call but the preference is ours and ours alone. God does not cause us to prefer one over the other. Therein is a mystery for each will never be able to relate to the other and why one chooses darkness and one chooses light? It simply is who they are. For those of us who prefer the light, we can only acknowledge the existence of those who prefer darkness but we will never understand (relate) them and vice versa.

Of course once one responds to the light and is showered in it, the question remains ... "how much light can one stand?"

PaulThomson · 2024-09-26T18:16:07-0400

Bruce_Leiter said:

17 Verses About Freewill from 6 Books
Leviticus 22:18
Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever [he be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Leviticus 22:21
And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish [his] vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22:23
Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer [for] a freewill offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23:38
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Numbers 15:3
And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Numbers 29:39
These [things] ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your freewill offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12:6
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

Deuteronomy 12:17
Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil, or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand:

Deuteronomy 16:10
And thou shalt keep the feast of weeks unto the LORD thy God with a tribute of a freewill offering of thine hand, which thou shalt give [unto the LORD thy God], according as the LORD thy God hath blessed thee:

Deuteronomy 23:23
That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; [even] a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Chronicles 2 31:14
And Kore the son of Imnah the Levite, the porter toward the east, [was] over the freewill offerings of God, to distribute the oblations of the LORD, and the most holy things.

Ezra 1:4
And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that [is] in Jerusalem.

Ezra 3:5
And afterward [offered] the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.

Ezra 7:13
I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and [of] his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Ezra 7:16
And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of Babylon, with the freewill offering of the people, and of the priests, offering willingly for the house of their God which [is] in Jerusalem:

Ezra 8:28
And I said unto them, Ye [are] holy unto the LORD; the vessels [are] holy also; and the silver and the gold [are] a freewill offering unto the LORD God of your fathers.

Psalms 119:108
Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments.

Webers.Home · 2024-09-26T18:17:52-0400

sawdust said:

I started reading the Bible for myself back in 1968. Sometime around 1969 I
ran across that passage in 1John 3:9 and it really caught my attention.

As fortune would have it, there was a Protestant elder managing the welding
shop where I worked so I ran it past him to see if he could clarify it for me.
Well; his explanation was pretty much the same as yours and when he
finished I asked him if he was positive the explanation was true. He
answered: What else could it mean?

Well, I was a neophyte at the time so I pretty much had to go along with him
because I just simply didn't know any better. However; in time I discovered
that he was the victim of a logical fallacy, to wit: he assumed that his (and
your) explanation of 1John 3:9 was correct because no one had thus far in his
experience come along with a different take on it.
_

Gods will vs mans free will

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