Grace believer, stop adding to the Gospel

[Pilgrimshope]

When it comes to the specific predictions of Paul in Acts 26 we have prophesies of a suffering servant, resurrection of Messiah and a light to the Jews and Gentiles prophesied about in the OLD Testament, although these prophecies were somewhat vague and remained a mystery.”


Right exactly that’s what revelation is you see what was hidden on the ot because Jesus hadn’t come forth to fulfill any of it yet that’s what Paul’s saying exactly now consider this

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This already is telling us the gentiles are included all nations ….

Do you see how Jesus was giving revelation to all of them before Paul even converted to Christianity ? Paul was able because Jesus gave him understsnding of the law and prophets he was able to understand those hidden and mysterious things but Paul is not alone all of the apostles were revealing the same things Jesus did before that also he was saying I’m going to die and give my life for the many and I’m going to be raised up and rose up to heaven and send my spirit back to you who believe …..

it didn’t have to happen before jesus could save people he’s the lord and judge of all creation he can say I forgive your sins your faith has saved you go in peace to a known sinful woman before he died

all forgiveness is based on Jesus sacrifice it was determined before the world was. He was preaching Jesus to Abraham in that “ mysterious form “ to Moses in that mysterious form ect they all received revelation and preached the gospel those four accounts of the gospel were written at the end of the apostles lives because it’s what they were preaching look what Paul says here

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

For I delivered unto you first of all ( he isn’t saying this is the everything he’s saying I first preached this to you )that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve part of Paul’s testimony was that he had heard about this beforehand ) After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. ( Paul was chosen as the 12th apostle of Jesus after he died it’s the only time Jesus appeared on earth again )

For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:1-5, 7-9, 11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

paul is telling them it doesn’t matter who preaches the gospel to you James Peter me it just matters that you hear it and believe they all were preaching the same things even the prophets were what you said here is right the doctrine was always there but the complete understanding wasn’t until the apostles received the spirit at pentocost

Read peters first two sermons beginning in acts 2 after he receives the Holy Ghost you’ll then see that Paul could have also preached those sermons and you’ll find what Peter is preaching ….in Paul’s writings and find what Paul wrote in peters writings

friend what I’m saying is the gospel is not a key Jesus death and resurrection it’s very simple that’s my point his death and resurrection is definately the gospel so is everything jesus preached nd Paul preached and Peter preached it’s repetetive and co forms and works perfectly together as one doctrine that’s all I’m saying Paul didn’t preach any other salvstion than what Jesus and his apostles all preached Paul agreed with fully and preached the gospel of the kingdom of God Jesus is the king and he gave his life for his people and he was raised up To life again

that part doesn’t change the rest of the gospel that’s where we are not agreeing we don’t erase jesus doctrine because he died and rose that part is what made it all valid everything he said became the everlasting word of God and will save us because he died and rose that’s why we have to believe that part

to be clear again of course I believe jesus died for our sins and rose for our justification every Christian has to believe that …..that doesn’t change or erase anything else in the gospel

It doesn’t mean this isn’t true or no longer applies or is only true of Jews ect ect this is true and applicable to is also is the gospel

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: ( Paul preached this acts chapter 17)

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. ( this is the gospel )

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. ( Paul preached this )


Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;


they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;


and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24, 26-29‬ ‭


Paul taught that also Roman’s chapter 2

My point is simple the gospel of mark Matthew Luke ( a partner In Paul’s ministry ) and John what we learn about n th owe four books in our Bible including of course Jesus dying for our sins and being raised up to life that’s the gospel not just one aspect but the gospel of mark when Jesus came preaching the gospel of Luke when he explains I’ve been sent to preach the gospel to heal the broken and loose the captives preach the acceptable year of the lord “

Or John when we learn who Jesus really is and where he came from and went to that’s all the gospel my friend that’s my point

the same things Jesus preached …..Paul preached repentance , eternal
Jidgement based on our deeds , Christ the eternal judge who we must appear before and give account , brotherly love forgiving one another giving to the poor ect ect the same things Jesus taught him in his ministry Paul also taught Paul had a different role he was expounding further understanding like Peter and John of the things Jesus had already preached paup didn’t change any part of the gospel he was just explaining that’s my point about his epistles all we have to do is have read the gospels and then read Paul and it is the explainations we don’t have to read what Paul wrote and then interpret it or change it or remove the context we need to try to grasp what he’s already explaining but to do that we have to read sections and accept what he’s saying if we haven’t read the gospel though a lot of it won’t make any sense at all

Remember Paul came along after the church had been growing and they had been preaching it everywhere they went so he’s actually writing his epistles to folks who had heard the gospel like here look at what he’s saying

“for the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: as ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding; that ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:5-7, 9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

sometimes we try to make Paul the guy who we have to make our foundation but that’s not right jesus has to be the foundation and to know Jesus we need to accept the gospel in its entirety. Otherwise he becomes just a sacrifice and scapegoat for sin ….but that was just something he did for us who he is is what we need and we find him in the gospel when we won’t reject it

 

[Pilgrimshope]

There is no spectrum. You have either obeyed or not. God doesn't grade sin on a curve.
At no time has anyone except Jesus and Adam and Eve before sin obeyed God. Christians only obey as they walk in the Spirit and Christ lives in them.

You have to be aware that you are sinning

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭

a judgement had become between the lord and judge and the believer no other person will be judged the exact same because it’s based on how much of the gospel we grasp

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

were accountable for the things God gives us and lets us understand but the things we don’t grasp we aren’t held accountable for a

like if you have two small children same age twins let’s say

One of them you give a list of rules and explain this is what’s expected of you

If this child then disobeys it’s an offense they committed

the other child you don’t give any rules to and he does something against your rules that he didn’t know it isn’t just to treat them the same . Because one was made aware the other wasn’t

also teachers , preachers pastors and elders are all held to higher standards than the common church of believers who don’t know the same things or at least don’t actually understand the same things

god knows exactly what we know so we can’t pretend we didn’t know something was a sin but often people don’t know they are doing anything wrong because they’ve never heard the gospel and things the eternal judge said

God judges each person justly according to what they really know is right and wrong it’s the difference in willful sin and being ignorant of what your doing

huge difference to God

 

[Cameron143]

The fact that there is a time when someone disobeyed the command to honor their parents does not mean that they have never honored their parents. While it is true that no one but Jesus had perfect obedience to God’s law, it is also true that no one but Jesus has needed to have perfect obedience. There is nothing that we earn as a wage if we manage to have perfect obedience and nothing that we do not earn as a wage if we do not have perfect obedience. The fact that the Bible speaks about people who have obeyed God’s law means that there are people who have obeyed it in spite of not having perfect obedience.

God requires perfect obedience or an acceptable payment for salvation. So, after the cross, we either possess eternal life or we do not. If we do, it is based on what has already been accomplished.
But you have switched terms on me. I said kept God's law. You equate that with obedience. One can obey a command and not fulfill the law. If my parents tell me to clean my room and I do it, I have followed the command. If I have done it begrudgingly, I did not fulfill the law because I didn't honor my parents.

 

[Cameron143]

You have to be aware that you are sinning

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭

a judgement had become between the lord and judge and the believer no other person will be judged the exact same because it’s based on how much of the gospel we grasp

“And that servant, which knew his Lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes.

For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required:

and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:47-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

were accountable for the things God gives us and lets us understand but the things we don’t grasp we aren’t held accountable for a

like if you have two small children same age twins let’s say

One of them you give a list of rules and explain this is what’s expected of you

If this child then disobeys it’s an offense they committed

the other child you don’t give any rules to and he does something against your rules that he didn’t know it isn’t just to treat them the same . Because one was made aware the other wasn’t

also teachers , preachers pastors and elders are all held to higher standards than the common church of believers who don’t know the same things or at least don’t actually understand the same things

god knows exactly what we know so we can’t pretend we didn’t know something was a sin but often people don’t know they are doing anything wrong because they’ve never heard the gospel and things the eternal judge said

God judges each person justly according to what they really know is right and wrong it’s the difference in willful sin and being ignorant of what your doing

huge difference to God

I agree the punishment is different. But both are sinful.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree the punishment is different. But both are sinful.

Yes sin is sin I agree . I’m just saying sin is taken into account only when the know or better worded when I’m aware that what I’m doing is sinful and then also when that happens we have this part the repentance and remission part as Christian’s we just need to acknolwedge that we have sinned like this

“but if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So when this happens and it does happen even as believers because we’re always learning new things

“Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.”
‭‭James‬ ‭4:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when that happens we can’t act like we’ve not sinned or we don’t neee to repent or God is just pretending we didn’t we can’t do this when we’re aware of our sin

If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”

abut if we do this from repentance “knowing we did wrong and desiring to be cleansed of it so we can move on from it “

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

remember we are saved by grace through faith part of that process is hearing this word

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which is this word

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭

awe we porsue the lord in the gospel we’re going to learn things that make us aware that we’re doing right or wrong in his eyes we aim for perfection but we’re also all at different points of what we understand from our lords word our faith grows as we allow more in when we listen to Jesus part of his message is that we need to embrace repentance or we’re going to perish like all sinners before us

abut we have to understand the measure is the gospel and how much the lord has taught us after the basics we aren’t going to all produce the same harvest or reach the same point of understanding but each will be accountable for what they do know

The gospel offers something the law didn’t allow for when you have sinned and become aware of it , we can acknolwedge it and repent and not be held tonthe punishment of the law which is death

a Jesus remember didn’t just die and rise up from death he also went here to do this fornus still now today


“Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:34‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado when we sin we aren’t under the preisthood orders of Aaron and word of Moses which says he who sins must be put to death. Or the prophets that says “ all souls areMine the soul who sins shall die “

in Christ he chose us when we were sinners in order to call us out of it and teach us righteousness so there is the doctrine of repentance and remission of sins when we have sinned we don’t have to think we’re lost now we just have to get real with God and acknolwedge our sins so we will learn to repent and stop serving sin

See if I’m bound to this word

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then repentance is irrelevant I must be executed like this

“then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: ( this isn’t an option ots a commandment ) because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭22:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see to put away the evil from them they killed the sinners among them who were known to have sinned . They hanged people burned them strangled them hanged them on trees stoned them to death ect based on the laws commands

that doctrine doest allow repentance but the gospel allows us to repent and put the evil away from our self that way .

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we realize we have sinned we can’t forget this part

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

awe have a goal but sometimes we flat out fail and fall Jesus won’t throw us away if we sin , he’s being patient because he wants us to be saved and not perish so he told us the truth

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and now he’s being patient letting the gospel work on believers to this end

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

repentance is the key it doesn’t mean I repented now I’m sinless and perfect it means as I live and follow Christ when I’ve sinned I will acknolwedge it , it will bother me that I’ve done it I will confess from that and repent and be forgiven and cleansed by his blood

bitnirw not so if I just pretend I don’t sin when I do

The gospel when we receive it becomes personal Jesus living inside of the believer leading and teaching and comforting and lifting up and warning and teaching and loving and showing example and then providing for it all where he’s still o yer reading when we make mistakes and don’t deny it

 

[mailmandan]

“Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭13:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That still does not change progressive revelation. According to your argument, the new covenant is the same as the old covenant. Nothing changed. Same yesterday, today and forever.

no I’ll never understand peoppe trying to change the gospel and claim a different way to be saved the bu me doesn’t take all the figuring and reasoning and twisting you do here you can’t even ack owledge what Paul said he preached lol your insisting that you’ve explained it all

I have not changed the gospel and you still don't understand progressive revelation. In a nutshell, the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel remains hid to those who don't believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

what I’m saying is Paul explained it all but you won’t acknolwedge what he said

I did acknowledge what Paul said. You won't acknowledge progressive revelation. You interpret the Bible from a blender and don't rightly divide the word of truth.

thats the difference I’m actually reading and quoting what Paul taught you n his epistles you are taking a verse and explaining what it all means it’s different because I’m showing you what Paul actually said and it’s not what you have explained paul taught

All you keep showing me is how you reject progressive revelation and add works to the gospel.

Do you feel me ? I accept everything Paul wrote I don’t have to reject this

Sigh..

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.

I often hear works-salvationists cite these passages of scripture then apply their eisegesis in order to teach we are saved by works. That is a perversion of the gospel. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These workss done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, and not the root of salvation.

If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:4-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

….in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to our gospel.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11, 16‬ ‭KJV

Salvation by works is not the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13)

Awee here you are explaining I just don’t get it and the reason is I accept what Paul actually wrote I do t have to not rush to somehow explain why that’s not true I don’t have to go find the verses “ we’re saved by grace “ so that I can say Roman’s two doesn’t count it’s not really true ….

Paul preached what he preached not what you have imagined he preached because you do this

You still just don't get it.

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Your main purpose here seems to be about winning your argument at all costs and rendering me as one who twists the scriptures to their own destruction. You are not my judge and jury.

i want to challenge you friend let’s actually have a discussion about what’s in Paul’s epistles now I’m not saying let’s only talk about whatever verse you explain and tell me that’s just what it means regardless of what else it says

Have you even bothered to thoroughly read through my posts?

actually let’s look at Paul’s epistles nd then you can tell me what I don’t understand I’ll agree with what Paul writes and explains but what’s going to be your position ? Will you accept what Paul actually preached and wrote to the church ?

I already have accepted what Paul actually preached and wrote to the church.

if you will this could be productive if you just want to explain to me what the Bible says but then not acknolwedge what it says this is pointless

so to you or any hypergracer open challenge let’s actually look at Paul’s letters as they are and discuss what he’s saying without taking a verse and then creating a doctrine that doesn’t agree with the rest of his words about it

Amy position is we’re supposed to read the epistles and consdoer what he’s saying in them not search for a verse pluck it and create things

Paul preached the gospel same as Jesus and the apostles he preached and taught baptism for remission of sins in Jesus name , he taught about the coming judgement upon all of us , he taught the th i gs on his epistles not only one thing or one point when you guys talk about the gospel of grace it is this

So you consider salvation by water baptism the gospel? That's not the gospel. You left out the word "repentance." Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Also see Matthew 3:11. I baptized you with water "for" repentance. Now was this repentance "for" in order to obtain baptism or "for" in regard to/on the basis of remission of sins received upon repentance? Also see Acts 3:19. What happened to baptism there? You seem to think that everything in scripture is the gospel.

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (mark 16 preach the gospel to all people )
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( the gospel teaches us this )

The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Believers are to be zealous for good works, which is what we are saved FOR, but not by. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity,( the gospel teaches us this )

and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. ( t fospe teaches us this )

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is talking about the true gospel

Not everything is scripture is the gospel. You sound really confused. Mormons add additional books to the Bible and call it the fullness of the gospel. They also teach works salvation. Roman Catholics make the same error.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That still does not change progressive revelation. According to your argument, the new covenant is the same as the old covenant. Nothing changed. Same yesterday, today and forever.

I have not changed the gospel and you still don't understand progressive revelation. In a nutshell, the gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel remains hid to those who don't believe. (2 Corinthians 4:3,4)

I did acknowledge what Paul said. You won't acknowledge progressive revelation. You interpret the Bible from a blender and don't rightly divide the word of truth.

All you keep showing me is how you reject progressive revelation and add works to the gospel.

Sigh..

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

I often hear works-salvationists cite these passages of scripture then apply their eisegesis in order to teach we are saved by works. That is a perversion of the gospel. If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it is imperative to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These workss done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit of, and not the root of salvation.

If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:4-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Salvation by works is not the gospel. (Acts 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 1:13)

You still just don't get it.

Your main purpose here seems to be about winning your argument at all costs and rendering me as one who twists the scriptures to their own destruction. You are not my judge and jury.

Have you even bothered to thoroughly read through my posts?

I already have accepted what Paul actually preached and wrote to the church.

So you consider salvation by water baptism the gospel? That's not the gospel. You left out the word "repentance." Baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Also see Matthew 3:11. I baptized you with water "for" repentance. Now was this repentance "for" in order to obtain baptism or "for" in regard to/on the basis of remission of sins received upon repentance? Also see Acts 3:19. What happened to baptism there? You seem to think that everything in scripture is the gospel.

The grace of God that brings salvation has "appeared to all men." (Yet that does not mean that all men will accept God's gift of eternal life through faith). God's grace brings salvation through faith (Ephesians 2:8) and the "grace of God" also teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously and godly in the present age. Believers are to be zealous for good works, which is what we are saved FOR, but not by. (Ephesians 2:8-10)

Not everything is scripture is the gospel. You sound really confused. Mormons add additional books to the Bible and call it the fullness of the gospel. They also teach works salvation. Roman Catholics make the same error.

are you even reading the mountains of scripture from Paul ? Your argument is against all of them and you’ve quoted part of one ……and then explained a theory that denied most of the resr

like this let’s simplify read your argument there above then read what the apostle paul wrote on his epistle to the Roman’s here

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

for there is no respect of persons with God.

…..in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to our gospel.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You simply can’t accept this part it seems like . this isn’t me misquoting Paul or taking anything out of context it’s you rejecting it and explaining why it’s not so as if it’s a riddle that only you can understand 😀

lol it’s actually the plain answer and the truth and revelation from paul and it’s meant to teach us that we have to repent just like Jesus said

heres how is support what Paul said with other things he said about the same matters

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado you know why Paul taught this game in his epistles ? Because it’s what Jesus taught in the gospel and Paul was one of his witnesses.

jesus taught us we have to repent and seek the lord do good , Paul taught us we have to repent and do good because we have to be judged by Jesus and the gospel see Paul taught that because Jesus told them that in the truth of the gospel

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You can talk about “ works gospels “ lol and how that’s just not true but why does paul teach that we’re going to be judged and given eternal life by our deeds ? Can you either acknolwedge what is on Paul’s epistles or say he didn’t understand what you do ?

did Paul write what is in his epistles to the church regarding judgement and repentance good works ? Did Paul write this at all or no way ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods work in us is meant to make us want to change and do his Will that’s what the gospel does

I’m gonna not continue though you won’t even acknowledge Paul’s words at this point you just select random verses and then explain theories that reject everything Paul was actually teaching not my opinion just what’s written on his epistles I mean is like to discuss th at with you but you won’t acknolwedge any of it you just tell me o don’t do nderersnd this new progressive gospel of grace that is a doffeeent gospel but wait no not a different gospel ….

It’s truly exhausting. If you ever want to talk about what Paul taught on his words that would be nice man but this is pointless I’m trying to discuss the Bible and what it says your telling me why it’s all wrong

 

[mailmandan]

are you even reading the mountains of scripture from Paul ? Your argument is against all of them and you’ve quoted part of one ……and then explained a theory that denied most of the resr

like this let’s simplify read your argument there above then read what the apostle paul wrote on his epistle to the Roman’s here

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

for there is no respect of persons with God.

…..in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to our gospel.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You simply can’t accept this part it seems like . this isn’t me misquoting Paul or taking anything out of context it’s you rejecting it and explaining why it’s not so as if it’s a riddle that only you can understand 😀

lol it’s actually the plain answer and the truth and revelation from paul and it’s meant to teach us that we have to repent just like Jesus said

heres how is support what Paul said with other things he said about the same matters

“And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭17:30-31‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado you know why Paul taught this game in his epistles ? Because it’s what Jesus taught in the gospel and Paul was one of his witnesses.

jesus taught us we have to repent and seek the lord do good , Paul taught us we have to repent and do good because we have to be judged by Jesus and the gospel see Paul taught that because Jesus told them that in the truth of the gospel

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You can talk about “ works gospels “ lol and how that’s just not true but why does paul teach that we’re going to be judged and given eternal life by our deeds ? Can you either acknolwedge what is on Paul’s epistles or say he didn’t understand what you do ?

did Paul write what is in his epistles to the church regarding judgement and repentance good works ? Did Paul write this at all or no way ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Gods work in us is meant to make us want to change and do his Will that’s what the gospel does

I’m gonna not continue though you won’t even acknowledge Paul’s words at this point you just select random verses and then explain theories that reject everything Paul was actually teaching not my opinion just what’s written on his epistles I mean is like to discuss th at with you but you won’t acknolwedge any of it you just tell me o don’t do nderersnd this new progressive gospel of grace that is a doffeeent gospel but wait no not a different gospel ….

It’s truly exhausting. If you ever want to talk about what Paul taught on his words that would be nice man but this is pointless I’m trying to discuss the Bible and what it says your telling me why it’s all wrong

I acknowledge Paul's words and I agree with Paul. I just don't agree with your eisegesis. Philippians 2:12-13 is in regard to ongoing sanctification after one believes the gospel and is saved. I've already explained so much to you but everything that I explain just continues to go right over your head. This conversation is going nowhere. Good night sir.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I acknowledge Paul's words and I agree with Paul. I just don't agree with your eisegesis. Philippians 2:12-13 is in regard to ongoing sanctification after one believes the gospel and is saved. I've already explained so much to you but everything that I explain just continues to go right over your head. This conversation is going nowhere. Good night sir.

It’s funny because mostly what I said is just repeating what Paul says on the same scripture I wuote to you from his epistles ….. I don’t think you even read the scriptures it’s hard to think you read them and then keep coming up with the circular arguments why they aren’t right ….

But im glad to know that you will always accept Paul’s words brother …can I hold you to that ? If so I will only quote Paul’s words to you from now on lol but you won’t like that either for sure haha just being lighthearted and you also have a good night man

either way lonely old men enjoy entertainment lol

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I acknowledge Paul's words and I agree with Paul. I just don't agree with your eisegesis. Philippians 2:12-13 is in regard to ongoing sanctification after one believes the gospel and is saved. I've already explained so much to you but everything that I explain just continues to go right over your head. This conversation is going nowhere. Good night sir.

I acknowledge Paul's words and I agree with Paul.

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭3:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


i dont think it’s a bad thing to acknowledge the obvious truth it’s ac try ally what teaches us better and makes us understand once we reach the point of not fighting it and just accept everything we can learn that changes us over time but as long as we just keep creating reasons why it’s not for us or can’t change us

It seems like your not making the connection

“if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:a

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; ( repent )

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

doing the right things that god wills and in the gospel obeying Jesus ……shouldn’t be considered works …….it’s faith to believe god and act in that it isn’t faith to say “ I do t need to do anything god said “ that’s a lack of faith

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Got to love these people who Takes the descriptive passages of scripture. and try to make them prescriptive.

The question we must ask is does God change his people or does he fail.

all this trying to puff self up just tears God down.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Got to love these people who Takes the descriptive passages of scripture. and try to make them prescriptive.

The question we must ask is does God change his people or does he fail.

all this trying to puff self up just tears God down.

yeah we can either believe the word of God or we can come to a Bible discussion forum and the. explain why people who do believe what it says …..just don’t get it .

the bible just says what it says what saves and condemns us is if we accept it or reject it ….if we believe it or don’t believe it

We should take it seriously it’s about our everlasting soul and it’s all true

 

[Kroogz]

Amen! Now although it is our responsibility to choose to believe in Christ for eternal life (John 3:16) and we will be held accountable for unbelief, (John 3:18) saving belief in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) and enables us (John 6:65), we would NEVER come to believe in Christ for eternal life all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ for eternal life, we must choose to believe in Christ for eternal life. The impulse to saving belief in Christ comes from the Father.

Thanks sir. I have a little different take on this. I believe the Father has enabled/drawn all men to choose Christ. It was done at the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 12:32- And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.

John 6:44-45--No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

The Father sent Jesus to draw all men to Himself.

That is why Paul so confidently says and quotes:
And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain— 2for He says,

“AT A FAVORABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,

AND ON A DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.”

Behold, now is “A FAVORABLE TIME,” behold, now is “A DAY OF SALVATION”

Yesterday, today or tomorrow is a day for salvation, God has drawn all men. Sad that many won't choose Him. God has done all the enabling and drawing. He is a gentleman and lets us decide. Thoughts?

 

[Kroogz]

I tried to edit my post, but ran out of time. I said," I believe the Father has enabled/drawn all men to choose Christ." In my above post.

Clarify that: I believe the Father has enabled/drawn all men to make their choice for Christ or not.

 

[Cameron143]

I tried to edit my post, but ran out of time. I said," I believe the Father has enabled/drawn all men to choose Christ." In my above post.

Clarify that: I believe the Father has enabled/drawn all men to make their choice for Christ or not.

Can you clarify further? Men can make a choice about Christ without being drawn, can't they?

 

[Obedience]

Men can make a choice about Christ without being drawn, can't they?

No, they can't.
Blameless, Christian should be Blameless.
If Christian do something else other than the word of God, Men can make a wrong choice about Christ.

Unfortunately, the dogma constructed by Christian has not been recognized by men.
Jesus was a stumbling block to these doctrines, and then became a stumbling block to men.

Men can make a wrong choice about Christ without being drawn rightly.

 

[mailmandan]

Thanks sir. I have a little different take on this. I believe the Father has enabled/drawn all men to choose Christ. It was done at the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ.

John 12:32- And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to Myself.

John 6:44-45--No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: ‘AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

The Father sent Jesus to draw all men to Himself.

That is why Paul so confidently says and quotes:
And working together with Him, we also urge you not to receive the grace of God in vain— 2for He says,

“AT A FAVORABLE TIME I LISTENED TO YOU,

AND ON A DAY OF SALVATION I HELPED YOU.”

Behold, now is “A FAVORABLE TIME,” behold, now is “A DAY OF SALVATION”

Yesterday, today or tomorrow is a day for salvation, God has drawn all men. Sad that many won't choose Him. God has done all the enabling and drawing. He is a gentleman and lets us decide. Thoughts?

It's sounds to me like we are both on the same page and - Sad that many won't choose Him. God has done all the enabling and drawing. He is a gentleman and lets us decide is the main point that we are both driving home.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Men can make a choice about Christ without being drawn, can't they?[/QUOTE]Not at all. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit all draw men to Christ. It is all there in Scripture. That is precisely why the Gospel must be preached in all the world and to every creature. It is through the Gospel that saving faith is generated, since faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God (the Gospel).

And it is the Holy Spirit who convinces and convicts the lost to obey the Gospel. At the same time God graciously gives sinners many opportunities to be saved. It is His express will that NONE should perish (be damned) and that ALL should come to repentance. Indeed God now COMMANDS all men everywhere to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

Every Christian has a responsibility to share the the true and full Gospel in one way or another. Every church also has this responsibility. And the sad truth is that the Gospel has been perverted by so many "Christian" groups or neglected to be preached in many churches.

 

[Kroogz]

It's sounds to me like we are both on the same page and - Sad that many won't choose Him. God has done all the enabling and drawing. He is a gentleman and lets us decide is the main point that we are both driving home.

Agreed!

 

[Kroogz]

Can you clarify further? Men can make a choice about Christ without being drawn, can't they?

The Father sent Jesus. That is the Father drawing us. He has drawn all men to Himself.(The Cross is hidden from no one)

That is why today/now is the day of salvation. I don't believe man is wondering around aimless and has no ability to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. The Father has already done His part.